1999 Accord Type-R - Saved from the scrapheap
Discussion
Leftfootwonder said:
£300 for oil seals...was that price fitted from a garage or did you DIY? Mine is going in for oil seals next week and they're wanting to charge me £1k as it's an engine out job...
Shame about the rot on your car but you're in too deep to stop now!
It was fitted by VTECDirect, can't remember exactly which seals were changed but it was most of the ones on the left hand side (cambelt side) of the engine. They didn't have to remove the engine, and I think they're the hardest seals to access. May be time to take it to someone who specialises in these cars....Shame about the rot on your car but you're in too deep to stop now!
Honestly I'm so pissed off, mainly about the head gasket as I'm really at a crossroads, throw even more money at this near-190k engine, or get a low mileage lump that could easily have the same issues a year later. I'll definitely get a leakdown test done before committing to having it done, but Ben seemed pretty well convinced that it would be the HG.
Jaaack said:
It was fitted by VTECDirect, can't remember exactly which seals were changed but it was most of the ones on the left hand side (cambelt side) of the engine. They didn't have to remove the engine, and I think they're the hardest seals to access. May be time to take it to someone who specialises in these cars....
Honestly I'm so pissed off, mainly about the head gasket as I'm really at a crossroads, throw even more money at this near-190k engine, or get a low mileage lump that could easily have the same issues a year later. I'll definitely get a leakdown test done before committing to having it done, but Ben seemed pretty well convinced that it would be the HG.
Thanks mate. I have just given them a call and they were very helpful. Just a shame they are nowhere near me! Honestly I'm so pissed off, mainly about the head gasket as I'm really at a crossroads, throw even more money at this near-190k engine, or get a low mileage lump that could easily have the same issues a year later. I'll definitely get a leakdown test done before committing to having it done, but Ben seemed pretty well convinced that it would be the HG.
I often wonder why I am throwing so much money at a car that isn't worth a great deal on the open market but the car is special to me so I can just about justify it. I content myself with the fact that more exotic car owners have to spend this kind of money on just an oil change or something minor but I know it's all relative and it's a lot compared to the cost of the car. If it were me, I'd keep the original engine and get VTECDirect to rebuild it properly. It will last another 200k miles then.
Started the process of elimination. I've got 2 weeks off work mandated (summer shutdown, not Coronavirus), so might as well make some sort of attempt at getting to the bottom of the hot start issue. Ben has replaced an earth, hopefully eliminating that.
It turns over very slowly when hot. It turns over slowly when cold, but not that slowly that it won't start. When hot it's like the battery is almost flat - when it's not - suggesting when the engine is warm and the pistons have expanded, the starter struggles to deal with the extra compression.
I've ordered a replacement starter off Ebay, but in the meantime I'll probably try the starter off my Prelude as I know that starts well, hot or cold - it's running an ATR engine although I can't remember if I used a Prelude or ATR starter. Possibly the same part anyway.
It has a slight roughness at low-mid throttle at low-mid revs, again this could be a sign of HGF but I'm hoping it'll be cured with a set of plugs, so ordered a fresh set of PZFR-6F-11s. £48 for a set of plugs! They've certainly not been changed in my ownership, which is 3 years, so they're due even if they were changed the week before I got it. Which I very much doubt they were.....
If the HG has failed, it's between 2 cylinders. It doesn't use any coolant, nor does it mix oil and coolant. Therefore to detect this failure, a compression test will be required, so I grabbed one earlier which should be delivered later today. Reviews say the readings may be lower than expected, but if they're consistently lower across all 4, then at least I know that there isn't a pair of cylinders venting compression into one another via a break in the HG. Of course they may be correct, it's a cheap tester, but hopefully consistent.
Either that or it'll tell me I need to fork out £3-4k for a full rebuild
It turns over very slowly when hot. It turns over slowly when cold, but not that slowly that it won't start. When hot it's like the battery is almost flat - when it's not - suggesting when the engine is warm and the pistons have expanded, the starter struggles to deal with the extra compression.
I've ordered a replacement starter off Ebay, but in the meantime I'll probably try the starter off my Prelude as I know that starts well, hot or cold - it's running an ATR engine although I can't remember if I used a Prelude or ATR starter. Possibly the same part anyway.
It has a slight roughness at low-mid throttle at low-mid revs, again this could be a sign of HGF but I'm hoping it'll be cured with a set of plugs, so ordered a fresh set of PZFR-6F-11s. £48 for a set of plugs! They've certainly not been changed in my ownership, which is 3 years, so they're due even if they were changed the week before I got it. Which I very much doubt they were.....
If the HG has failed, it's between 2 cylinders. It doesn't use any coolant, nor does it mix oil and coolant. Therefore to detect this failure, a compression test will be required, so I grabbed one earlier which should be delivered later today. Reviews say the readings may be lower than expected, but if they're consistently lower across all 4, then at least I know that there isn't a pair of cylinders venting compression into one another via a break in the HG. Of course they may be correct, it's a cheap tester, but hopefully consistent.
Either that or it'll tell me I need to fork out £3-4k for a full rebuild
chrismc1977 said:
My old ATR would occasionally do similar when it was roasting hot. I think it had a Denso starter originally which I replaced with a Mitsuba (Prelude H22 OEM)
I very very much doubt it’s HG related
I'm really hoping it's not. However I've now had a lightweight crank pulley fitted and it's still wobbling, which I guess suggests it's either suffering from crank walk or the end of the crank where the pulley bolts on is worn.I very very much doubt it’s HG related
Compression tester arrived the other day, so went out for a drive to get it warmed up and make sure the battery had enough juice in to crank it over for a while. It behaved perfectly, doesn't half make for a fun car to drive.
Plugs look reasonably okay I think? Probably old though, so I'm waiting for a replacement set. They're the right plugs, at least.
Test time! Amazon reviews said this tester tended to read lower than expected, so was looking for consistency rather than outright numbers.
Happily, it provided not only decent numbers, but was very consistent across all 4 cylinders. Repeated the test and got the exact same numbers, on the dot, as the first test. 190psi across the board, apart from cylinder 1 which produced 195 on both tests. A difference of approx 2.5% on an almost 190k engine with it's health in serious doubt, is quite an encouraging result
Of course if the head gasket had gone between two cylinders, you'd expect to see lower numbers on two adjoining cylinders, however I've been told these engines don't always show this on a compression test. Still a good indication that the engine isn't an absolute knacker.
It's not out of the woods just yet though, I'm going to order a sniff tester with the container of blue liquid that screws onto the rad cap and shows if there are any exhaust gases getting into the cooling system, if this test is successful then I may just call it good, only a leakdown test would show a knackered head gasket at this point, but if it passed a compression test, and IF it passes the coolant sniff test, it seems a bit daft to do a leakdown test?
Huh, what's that?
It's just about perforated from the inner arch into the engine bay, not the end of the world and not too bad of an area to get repaired.
With this, and the sill rot shown on the last page, I'm rapidly becoming aware that my "virtually rust free" Accord Type-R isn't so rust free any more. You may remember from the first page that there was a scab visible on the bulkhead when I bought it. Completely buried my head in the sand regarding this, and haven't looked up there since buying it three years ago. Not the wisest way of approaching it, but whatever. So I decided to finally stop forgetting about it and took a look.
To be honest, I couldn't be happier with what I found! It's not got any worse in three years! The rest of the bulkhead appears to be sound, it's just this scab, and it really hasn't changed since I looked on the day of purchase. I was half expecting (in fact, more than half expecting) to be able to see the tyre. I think this is thanks to the fact I refuse to drive it if there's even a hint of salt on the roads, it's a shame to lay it up for nearly 6 months of the year but it's definitely helped preserve it. And that's without any sort of treatment. The one time I did drive it in winter, I hosed off the underbody as soon as I got home. Definitely going to need sorting soon though, I can't expect it to last forever without any attention.
This is it from the wheelarch side:
Thought it was probably wise to check the passenger side as I've honestly never looked at that
Hard to see with the heater fan and AC system fitted, but it looks very good, just a very small amount which I might actually get away without having welded, it'll just be a nightmare to access and get a wire brush and rust converter up there.
Viewed from the engine bay, again just a tiny bit visible, needs the seam sealer removing, rust treating, and re-sealing but access is a nightmare as the strut tower virtually blocks off all access.
Viewed from the wheel arch, not the clearest photo but there's a tiny bit of evidence, will only be able to tell the extent of what needs doing when the factory sealer is removed.
Driver's side definitely needs cutting out and welding up, hoping I'll get away with treating and resealing the passenger side, but as is often the way with rust, once we start digging it'll probably reveal a bit more than initially visible.
Not too concerned with the rot, it was going to happen eventually, and I knew some of it was there, and as stated, was expecting it to have got pretty bad by now.
The engine is making me lose the love tbh. I WILL fix it and have my fun out of it, but right now the last thing I need to be paying for is an engine rebuild while trying to save up for a garage. If the head gasket hasn't gone, there definitely seems to be some sort of issue with the crank, it's either walking or the end is worn. Not sure if it's possible for it to be worn as it's a lot harder than the steel pulley that was on it, and definitely harder than the alloy pulley that's on it now. Could the thrust washers be on the way out and causing it to walk? Also since the decat I've noticed it's pretty smokey, especially on the overrun at high RPM.
It still drives fantastically which is the frustrating part, and it starts much better now an earth cable has been replaced.
I could buy another engine for £6-800 and it last for years, or it could have all the same issues as this one. I'd like to keep the original engine in the car, but if a replacement engine gets it on track while being kind to the wallet, I'm not against going down that route.
I could have it rebuilt, but that'll likely eat up most of what I've saved to have a garage built. I know that's the correct answer really, but it's not really an option right now.
So frustrating having a car known for being pretty reliable, throwing hundreds at it every month and it still being f
ked.Jaaack said:
I'm really hoping it's not. However I've now had a lightweight crank pulley fitted and it's still wobbling, which I guess suggests it's either suffering from crank walk or the end of the crank where the pulley bolts on is worn.
Compression tester arrived the other day, so went out for a drive to get it warmed up and make sure the battery had enough juice in to crank it over for a while. It behaved perfectly, doesn't half make for a fun car to drive.
Plugs look reasonably okay I think? Probably old though, so I'm waiting for a replacement set. They're the right plugs, at least.
Test time! Amazon reviews said this tester tended to read lower than expected, so was looking for consistency rather than outright numbers.
Happily, it provided not only decent numbers, but was very consistent across all 4 cylinders. Repeated the test and got the exact same numbers, on the dot, as the first test. 190psi across the board, apart from cylinder 1 which produced 195 on both tests. A difference of approx 2.5% on an almost 190k engine with it's health in serious doubt, is quite an encouraging result
Of course if the head gasket had gone between two cylinders, you'd expect to see lower numbers on two adjoining cylinders, however I've been told these engines don't always show this on a compression test. Still a good indication that the engine isn't an absolute knacker.
It's not out of the woods just yet though, I'm going to order a sniff tester with the container of blue liquid that screws onto the rad cap and shows if there are any exhaust gases getting into the cooling system, if this test is successful then I may just call it good, only a leakdown test would show a knackered head gasket at this point, but if it passed a compression test, and IF it passes the coolant sniff test, it seems a bit daft to do a leakdown test?
Huh, what's that?
It's just about perforated from the inner arch into the engine bay, not the end of the world and not too bad of an area to get repaired.
With this, and the sill rot shown on the last page, I'm rapidly becoming aware that my "virtually rust free" Accord Type-R isn't so rust free any more. You may remember from the first page that there was a scab visible on the bulkhead when I bought it. Completely buried my head in the sand regarding this, and haven't looked up there since buying it three years ago. Not the wisest way of approaching it, but whatever. So I decided to finally stop forgetting about it and took a look.
To be honest, I couldn't be happier with what I found! It's not got any worse in three years! The rest of the bulkhead appears to be sound, it's just this scab, and it really hasn't changed since I looked on the day of purchase. I was half expecting (in fact, more than half expecting) to be able to see the tyre. I think this is thanks to the fact I refuse to drive it if there's even a hint of salt on the roads, it's a shame to lay it up for nearly 6 months of the year but it's definitely helped preserve it. And that's without any sort of treatment. The one time I did drive it in winter, I hosed off the underbody as soon as I got home. Definitely going to need sorting soon though, I can't expect it to last forever without any attention.
This is it from the wheelarch side:
Thought it was probably wise to check the passenger side as I've honestly never looked at that
Hard to see with the heater fan and AC system fitted, but it looks very good, just a very small amount which I might actually get away without having welded, it'll just be a nightmare to access and get a wire brush and rust converter up there.
Viewed from the engine bay, again just a tiny bit visible, needs the seam sealer removing, rust treating, and re-sealing but access is a nightmare as the strut tower virtually blocks off all access.
Viewed from the wheel arch, not the clearest photo but there's a tiny bit of evidence, will only be able to tell the extent of what needs doing when the factory sealer is removed.
Driver's side definitely needs cutting out and welding up, hoping I'll get away with treating and resealing the passenger side, but as is often the way with rust, once we start digging it'll probably reveal a bit more than initially visible.
Not too concerned with the rot, it was going to happen eventually, and I knew some of it was there, and as stated, was expecting it to have got pretty bad by now.
The engine is making me lose the love tbh. I WILL fix it and have my fun out of it, but right now the last thing I need to be paying for is an engine rebuild while trying to save up for a garage. If the head gasket hasn't gone, there definitely seems to be some sort of issue with the crank, it's either walking or the end is worn. Not sure if it's possible for it to be worn as it's a lot harder than the steel pulley that was on it, and definitely harder than the alloy pulley that's on it now. Could the thrust washers be on the way out and causing it to walk? Also since the decat I've noticed it's pretty smokey, especially on the overrun at high RPM.
It still drives fantastically which is the frustrating part, and it starts much better now an earth cable has been replaced.
I could buy another engine for £6-800 and it last for years, or it could have all the same issues as this one. I'd like to keep the original engine in the car, but if a replacement engine gets it on track while being kind to the wallet, I'm not against going down that route.
I could have it rebuilt, but that'll likely eat up most of what I've saved to have a garage built. I know that's the correct answer really, but it's not really an option right now.
So frustrating having a car known for being pretty reliable, throwing hundreds at it every month and it still being fked.
Great read, I’ve also had a similar discovery. My ATR which I thought was very solid underneath has got a patch on the chassis rails that doesn’t look great, it’s where the under seal has chipped away and developed a bit of rust, just dreading stripping it back and finding something nasty. Your bulkhead is almost identical to mine although on mine it’s been cut back but not welded, need to get it done but would like the chassis rails done first. Mines being re-undersealed later on this year so fingers crossed it’s not too bad. If it is rotten I just hope it’s not really bad as I absolutely love it the car.Compression tester arrived the other day, so went out for a drive to get it warmed up and make sure the battery had enough juice in to crank it over for a while. It behaved perfectly, doesn't half make for a fun car to drive.
Plugs look reasonably okay I think? Probably old though, so I'm waiting for a replacement set. They're the right plugs, at least.
Test time! Amazon reviews said this tester tended to read lower than expected, so was looking for consistency rather than outright numbers.
Happily, it provided not only decent numbers, but was very consistent across all 4 cylinders. Repeated the test and got the exact same numbers, on the dot, as the first test. 190psi across the board, apart from cylinder 1 which produced 195 on both tests. A difference of approx 2.5% on an almost 190k engine with it's health in serious doubt, is quite an encouraging result
Of course if the head gasket had gone between two cylinders, you'd expect to see lower numbers on two adjoining cylinders, however I've been told these engines don't always show this on a compression test. Still a good indication that the engine isn't an absolute knacker.
It's not out of the woods just yet though, I'm going to order a sniff tester with the container of blue liquid that screws onto the rad cap and shows if there are any exhaust gases getting into the cooling system, if this test is successful then I may just call it good, only a leakdown test would show a knackered head gasket at this point, but if it passed a compression test, and IF it passes the coolant sniff test, it seems a bit daft to do a leakdown test?
Huh, what's that?
It's just about perforated from the inner arch into the engine bay, not the end of the world and not too bad of an area to get repaired.
With this, and the sill rot shown on the last page, I'm rapidly becoming aware that my "virtually rust free" Accord Type-R isn't so rust free any more. You may remember from the first page that there was a scab visible on the bulkhead when I bought it. Completely buried my head in the sand regarding this, and haven't looked up there since buying it three years ago. Not the wisest way of approaching it, but whatever. So I decided to finally stop forgetting about it and took a look.
To be honest, I couldn't be happier with what I found! It's not got any worse in three years! The rest of the bulkhead appears to be sound, it's just this scab, and it really hasn't changed since I looked on the day of purchase. I was half expecting (in fact, more than half expecting) to be able to see the tyre. I think this is thanks to the fact I refuse to drive it if there's even a hint of salt on the roads, it's a shame to lay it up for nearly 6 months of the year but it's definitely helped preserve it. And that's without any sort of treatment. The one time I did drive it in winter, I hosed off the underbody as soon as I got home. Definitely going to need sorting soon though, I can't expect it to last forever without any attention.
This is it from the wheelarch side:
Thought it was probably wise to check the passenger side as I've honestly never looked at that
Hard to see with the heater fan and AC system fitted, but it looks very good, just a very small amount which I might actually get away without having welded, it'll just be a nightmare to access and get a wire brush and rust converter up there.
Viewed from the engine bay, again just a tiny bit visible, needs the seam sealer removing, rust treating, and re-sealing but access is a nightmare as the strut tower virtually blocks off all access.
Viewed from the wheel arch, not the clearest photo but there's a tiny bit of evidence, will only be able to tell the extent of what needs doing when the factory sealer is removed.
Driver's side definitely needs cutting out and welding up, hoping I'll get away with treating and resealing the passenger side, but as is often the way with rust, once we start digging it'll probably reveal a bit more than initially visible.
Not too concerned with the rot, it was going to happen eventually, and I knew some of it was there, and as stated, was expecting it to have got pretty bad by now.
The engine is making me lose the love tbh. I WILL fix it and have my fun out of it, but right now the last thing I need to be paying for is an engine rebuild while trying to save up for a garage. If the head gasket hasn't gone, there definitely seems to be some sort of issue with the crank, it's either walking or the end is worn. Not sure if it's possible for it to be worn as it's a lot harder than the steel pulley that was on it, and definitely harder than the alloy pulley that's on it now. Could the thrust washers be on the way out and causing it to walk? Also since the decat I've noticed it's pretty smokey, especially on the overrun at high RPM.
It still drives fantastically which is the frustrating part, and it starts much better now an earth cable has been replaced.
I could buy another engine for £6-800 and it last for years, or it could have all the same issues as this one. I'd like to keep the original engine in the car, but if a replacement engine gets it on track while being kind to the wallet, I'm not against going down that route.
I could have it rebuilt, but that'll likely eat up most of what I've saved to have a garage built. I know that's the correct answer really, but it's not really an option right now.
So frustrating having a car known for being pretty reliable, throwing hundreds at it every month and it still being f
ked.Barny56 said:
Great read, I’ve also had a similar discovery. My ATR which I thought was very solid underneath has got a patch on the chassis rails that doesn’t look great, it’s where the under seal has chipped away and developed a bit of rust, just dreading stripping it back and finding something nasty. Your bulkhead is almost identical to mine although on mine it’s been cut back but not welded, need to get it done but would like the chassis rails done first. Mines being re-undersealed later on this year so fingers crossed it’s not too bad. If it is rotten I just hope it’s not really bad as I absolutely love it the car.
These cars unfortunately have a tendency to hide the rot very well! Mine looks perfect until you get underneath - the rear arches are absolutely mint, they're the first part to suffer on almost all other Hondas.Not good that yours has had the rot cut out but not repaired! That confirms that the seller was aware but didn't say anything, not on IMO.
I'd advise you to get all your rot fixed properly before undersealing, and have a proper read up before doing it if you're doing it yourself. Don't use Waxoyl or similar, when it dries it chips off and water gets trapped under the remaining bits, causing rust to appear faster. Dinitrol and Bilt Hamber are supposed to be very good stuff. Also you need to get it cavity waxed, this is a wax coating that goes inside all the cavities, it only needs to be a thin film but it needs to get complete coverage to work properly. I'd give the underside a good wash before the next heatwave, drive it around during hot, dry weather for a few days to ensure there's no moisture sitting in any cavities, then go to town on rustproofing it. There are companies that specialise in it, so you could use one of them. I wouldn't use a local garage unless they demonstrate that they really understand rustproofing and how it all works.
As for mine, I've kind of fallen out with it. Probably going to need £1000+ to get it solid and presentable underneath, and it appears that the crank is walking or the end has ovalled, as even the lightweight solid pulley is wobbling. It needs a rebuild or replacement engine. Ben @ VTECDirect is pricing me up an engine at some point soon, he has blocks and pistons lying around so we are looking at cobbling something together. Will be using new ACL bearings etc if I go ahead with it, and for peace of mind probably a brand new oil pump. Won't be anything fancy, just used OEM pistons, rods, crank and block etc. Would probably be using my existing head, with replacement vavle stem oil seals as it's decided to start smoking like a b
d at high RPM, especially on the overrun. While it's in bits I may take the opportunity to throw a 3.6kg Fidanza flywheel in, should make it even more responsive.Won't be going high-comp or forged or anything, just healthy OEM spec will do me for now. I can get power later from more efficient intake and removal of air, but that's all bolt-on stuff like a bigger throttle body, ported inlet manifold, better exhaust manifold and system etc.
Overall not much of an update, just a moan/cry for sympathy
I'm not the kind that'll sell or break a car over something like this, so it'll get what it needs, but it looks like that may not happen for a while. I just want to get on track and have some trouble free fun, but I can't see it happening this year unless an engine build is quite a bit cheaper than I'm expecting.Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff