I'm still embarrassingly crap on track
Discussion
I saw Pac's post re his first track day and didn't want to hijack it by asking for advice for a track day novice (me).
Had my second autocross race yesterday and I'm still only matching the times of the quicker hot hatches. Same again - the circuit is tight and twisty, all second gear except for one first gear 180, on not very grippy tarmac.
Acknowledging that it's undoubtedly the novice driver and not the car at fault, I would nevertheless be grateful for some help on tyres. I took the advice from my last post to let the air out (32 cold all round) - this is for a 996 which has been dropped 25mm on Eibachs and with a front strut brace, on 17 inch Michelin Pilot Sports in warm dry weather.
Thing is, despite repeated attempts to smooth out my driving or trying alternatives like trail braking etc, I am still struggling through the slower bends. There is a hideous vibration through the whole car as the car maintains a four wheel drift, especially when going round the 360 "roundabout" in second. Getting the nose to bite seems very difficult.
Have I perhaps let the air out too much? After my four timed laps, I checked the pressures and they were now reading 36 front and 39 rear, so perhaps the rear was still too high. Any tips?
Also, does anyone have experience of Michelin Pilot Sports? After the race, I tried some faster second and third gear corners in a secluded spot, and discovered the car was much more neutral and grippy, at the same pressures (36/39 hot).
Realising that investing in driver mods rather than car or tyre mods is more crucial to slashing lap times, I have arranged for some driver training in the near future. Meanwhile any help on tyres would be gratefully received.
Had my second autocross race yesterday and I'm still only matching the times of the quicker hot hatches. Same again - the circuit is tight and twisty, all second gear except for one first gear 180, on not very grippy tarmac.
Acknowledging that it's undoubtedly the novice driver and not the car at fault, I would nevertheless be grateful for some help on tyres. I took the advice from my last post to let the air out (32 cold all round) - this is for a 996 which has been dropped 25mm on Eibachs and with a front strut brace, on 17 inch Michelin Pilot Sports in warm dry weather.
Thing is, despite repeated attempts to smooth out my driving or trying alternatives like trail braking etc, I am still struggling through the slower bends. There is a hideous vibration through the whole car as the car maintains a four wheel drift, especially when going round the 360 "roundabout" in second. Getting the nose to bite seems very difficult.
Have I perhaps let the air out too much? After my four timed laps, I checked the pressures and they were now reading 36 front and 39 rear, so perhaps the rear was still too high. Any tips?
Also, does anyone have experience of Michelin Pilot Sports? After the race, I tried some faster second and third gear corners in a secluded spot, and discovered the car was much more neutral and grippy, at the same pressures (36/39 hot).
Realising that investing in driver mods rather than car or tyre mods is more crucial to slashing lap times, I have arranged for some driver training in the near future. Meanwhile any help on tyres would be gratefully received.
Realising that investing in driver mods rather than car or tyre mods is more crucial to slashing lap times, I have arranged for some driver training in the near future. Meanwhile any help on tyres would be gratefully received.
Money well spent Harris -you won't need any mods after that!
Melv
Driver training definitely makes the most difference.
On my first track day at Goodwood a couple of years ago,I was disappointed with my lines and overall performance.A friendly chap in his Grey 964 C4 volunteered to slow his pace allowing me follow the correct lines for a couple of laps,It made all the difference & Goodwood is now one of my favourite circuits,,,,Thanks for that Melv...
On my first track day at Goodwood a couple of years ago,I was disappointed with my lines and overall performance.A friendly chap in his Grey 964 C4 volunteered to slow his pace allowing me follow the correct lines for a couple of laps,It made all the difference & Goodwood is now one of my favourite circuits,,,,Thanks for that Melv...
Driver training is important but you are on the right track by analysing what the car and tyres are doing. You can be the best driver in the world but you can only go as fast as the car you are driving. Also, if you have an ill-handling car it can have devistating effects on driver confidence.
As regards to tyres. They are the only thing which connects the car to the road and are critical. Worry about the hot pressures, not cold. Different tyres work better at different pressures depending on the weight and power of the car. It's best to get a guideline from the tyre company first and then do some testing. Learn how to analyse how a tyre is working by looking at the wear. If the tyres are too worn in the centre then the pressures are too high, too worn at the edges is too low.
The low speed understeer could be down to tracking. Maybe you should give the car a bit of toe out at the front. This will make the car dart about at speed but will also aid the turn in. If the courses you do are only second gear twisty ones then the turn-in is critical.
Hope this all helps.
As regards to tyres. They are the only thing which connects the car to the road and are critical. Worry about the hot pressures, not cold. Different tyres work better at different pressures depending on the weight and power of the car. It's best to get a guideline from the tyre company first and then do some testing. Learn how to analyse how a tyre is working by looking at the wear. If the tyres are too worn in the centre then the pressures are too high, too worn at the edges is too low.
The low speed understeer could be down to tracking. Maybe you should give the car a bit of toe out at the front. This will make the car dart about at speed but will also aid the turn in. If the courses you do are only second gear twisty ones then the turn-in is critical.
Hope this all helps.
He he -I like that Paul: 'slow his pace'!!
Glad to be able to help!!
Just join up the dots (the cones!) and plan ahead, build up your speed, try some laps WITHOUT using the brakes -encourages smoothness and forward planning. Try a few laps in just third or fourth in order to concentrate on the steering and lines.
Melv
Glad to be able to help!!
Just join up the dots (the cones!) and plan ahead, build up your speed, try some laps WITHOUT using the brakes -encourages smoothness and forward planning. Try a few laps in just third or fourth in order to concentrate on the steering and lines.
Melv
randy said:
try some laps WITHOUT using the brakes
Interesting technique. Rather you than me!
No, it really works. The less braking you use, the more time you have to judge your approach speed and get your lines right. If you do massively overcook it you can always use the brakes to get you out of trouble. Its a good way to learn, the only problem is you will be *really* slow which might mean other drivers treat you as a mobile chicane.
I have to agree that braking late as a novice does nothing for you on the corners.It`s better to brake nice and early so that braking is finished well before turn in as this gives time to pick your turn in point and look ahead for your apex and exit points with the added benefit of the car being settled (as opposed to weight over the front when braking)
A better line through the corners gives more speed than late braking IMHO.
Yours
A novice.
A better line through the corners gives more speed than late braking IMHO.
Yours
A novice.
A better line through the corners gives more speed than late braking IMHO
One of the biggest errors made by new drivers is going into corners way too fast and compromising exit speed.
Going back to basics; If you break an average circuit down into corners and straights then you will find that the straights account for about 75% of the total track distance. This being the case, it is obvious that the straights are far more important than the corners.
To maximise lap times a good driver will always be thinking about their exit onto the straights. You may feel like a hero by carrying huge amounts of speed into a corner and braking at the last minute but it is, ultimately, counter-productive. A great driver can carry speed into the corner and still get the exit right (watch M. Schumacher) but for the novice it is always more productive to be conservative on the brakes and concentrate on exit speed.
I really can't see the point in going around a circuit without hitting the brakes at all. What this achieves is a mystery to me. If it floats your boat, however, then go for it. Just don't get in my way when I come thundering past.
>> Edited by randy on Monday 27th January 15:25
I had one on one training at Donnington in my 911.The instructor took me through the craner curve in 4th gear accelerating thriugh the blind crest to take the perfect line...If i had been there all day I would never have had the confidence to do that.it was very rewarding & is now my favourite part of the circuit.
I agree - I had one on one instruction when I had my Integrale and the improvement was dramatic. I think partly it was because the training gave me the confidence to do things I might not otherwise have tried, as clubsport says.
Problem is autocross is basically four goes at a tiny circuit and that's your lot. No free lap time to experiment and get some tuition in. Taking a rally rep by the scruff of its neck round a second gear circuit might work, but it sure as hell won't work on a 911. I am booking in for some driver training arranged by the local Porsche Club soon so undoubtedly that will impact on my autocross times. Here's hoping.
It's a shame we don't have any bigger circuits out here.
Problem is autocross is basically four goes at a tiny circuit and that's your lot. No free lap time to experiment and get some tuition in. Taking a rally rep by the scruff of its neck round a second gear circuit might work, but it sure as hell won't work on a 911. I am booking in for some driver training arranged by the local Porsche Club soon so undoubtedly that will impact on my autocross times. Here's hoping.
It's a shame we don't have any bigger circuits out here.
You've missed the point completely Randy. We're talking about helping a guy to get used to the track, at a slower pace brakes are a distraction, leave them alone and concentrate on the line and brake, turn in points etc., then build up the speed and start to use the brakes by all means, but remember, they just slow you down.....
Melv
Melv
Can see your point exactly Mel. By not using the brakes you will be going slower and hopfully more smoothly and be able to build up a little confidence at developing the correct line. Braking is definately a distraction during most peoples first few laps around an unknown circuit. Especially as the first big mistake is entering too fast. If you know your NOT going to use your brakes you almost certainly Wont be going too fast. Craner curves is an Ideal case in point. Time taken to build up to it is time well spent.
This autocross stuff, is it anything like the speed competitions we have in the UK? Tarmac course of about a mile on a race circuit or airfield, going one at a time against the clock, standing start, flying finish. Convoy, couple of practice runs and then two or three competitive runs. Is that popular over there?
That's pretty much exactly what it is, except we don't get any practice runs, just a walk through of the circuit before we race.
Mitsubishis, Caterhams and 911 turbos do rather well. Good Carrera and Boxster drivers tend to get close, bad ones tend to compete with the well-driven modified Clios and Type-Rs.
Mitsubishis, Caterhams and 911 turbos do rather well. Good Carrera and Boxster drivers tend to get close, bad ones tend to compete with the well-driven modified Clios and Type-Rs.
You've missed the point completely Randy. We're talking about helping a guy to get used to the track, at a slower pace brakes are a distraction, leave them alone and concentrate on the line and brake, turn in points etc., then build up the speed and start to use the brakes by all means, but remember, they just slow you down.....
There is no point to miss. Not using the brakes is going to cause the novice to enter corners too fast and scrub off speed in the first portion of the bend. This is exactly what we should teach people NOT to do. My point is that the exit of a corner is, by far, the most important part. Don't distract a novice by trying to get him to judge the perfect entry speed when it's the exit where time is made up over a lap. I would rather see a novice use the brakes far too much than not at all. Remember, in a straight line, the brakes slow you down but, over a lap, proper use of them REALLY speeds you up.
Can see your point exactly Mel. By not using the brakes you will be going slower and hopfully more smoothly and be able to build up a little confidence at developing the correct line. Braking is definately a distraction during most peoples first few laps around an unknown circuit. Especially as the first big mistake is entering too fast. If you know your NOT going to use your brakes you almost certainly Wont be going too fast. Craner curves is an Ideal case in point. Time taken to build up to it is time well spent.
I don't know why you have selected the Craner Curves as an ideal point... In 9 out of 10 cars they should be taken flat anyway. I would like to see you forget to use the brakes into the old hairpin afterwards though
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