MP4-12C photos and review/comparison
Discussion
ANDYCLAX said:
Thought id chime in on your comment on the GPS,not the best argument really,im sure if you thought about it ,and the unforeseen problems that Japan had earlier in the year,you would realise thats the reason that they had to switch to another source and thats what is taking the time,something that none of us would have wished on anyone,and ive said before im old enough to read a map.
plus,a new supecar maker on the block,might force the quality up for everyone ,so everyone wins.Of course thats if Italy dosent go bust in the meantime
i took the example of the iris, i could have taken the door sensors, the rear window, the onboard computer or whatever. the point was that even with all the attention to detail in the world, there are always problems because there are a lot of different actors and parameters. plus,a new supecar maker on the block,might force the quality up for everyone ,so everyone wins.Of course thats if Italy dosent go bust in the meantime
but i agree, competition is good especially when it comes from a serious company like mclaren.
by the way, to upset those waiting for theirs
, another MP4 crashed, this time at Spa, in the rain : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD9SDc3jaig&fea...Streetrod said:
Don’t forget that the GPS systems electronics were being supplied by a company in Japan that was nearly wiped out by the earth quake earlier this year. As excuses go that is a pretty good one I think
Mercedes are having similar problems with the Command option on their cars.Murcielago_Boy said:
I fully appreciate what you've said. It's accurate - but that says nothing about QUALITY - Italian leadership is not based on perfect production.
On that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
Great point about Italian cars by Murci. Its been ammusing the silence from real Ferrari owners who have been putting up with shoddy workmanship for years,why Mclaren are getting it in the kneck when Ferraris/Lambos/Maserati's have had such issues from day dot to this day maybe says more about the owners keeping hush about the brand that they love. Friends Gallardo's door handle came off in his hands,petrol cap came off its lining,kangarooing at low speeds,constant error codes/oil light on dash etc,etc never mind the initial clutch problems that seemed to affect ALL early cars seem to be swept under the carpet because the car looks so good. His 612 has had a catalouge of small niggly embarrasing issues aswell as the handbrake failing and it rolling into his neighbours wall.On that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 17:47
I have never sat in any Ferrari or Lambo and thought that this car is as well built as a £40k Porsche Cayman never mind an Audi R8. There is something flimsy and unfinished about them. I cant however totally agree with your point on British workmanship as Lotus and Aston Martin cant seem to get it right either.
P.S. I have not spent any time in a modern California/599/458/Aventador so cant really comment if the Italians have finally got it right.
HeavySoul said:
Streetrod said:
Don’t forget that the GPS systems electronics were being supplied by a company in Japan that was nearly wiped out by the earth quake earlier this year. As excuses go that is a pretty good one I think
A very good point.A bit like the camshafts the Indians were trying to make...
Outsourcing is a necessity at this price level. The more complex the car, the more that becomes a risk. McLaren are new to the mass produced lark. Looks like they're learning the hard way. After being in the electronics game for years I know what a difficult jump that is.
Wanta996Gotta said:
Great point about Italian cars by Murci...
No it is irrelevant. McLaren made a lot of noise and promises about how they were going to change the game and they haven't. What many people were buying into and expecting from McLaren was that their car was going to be near perfect with top notch build quality etc etc. I don't think that's why anyone buys a Ferrari or Lamborghini, although the hope is that when McLaren do get it right they will force the competition to raise their games in that respect.It is quite clear to me they began deliveries perhaps six months too early and I can fully undertstand that pressure from customers wanting cars and their accountants wanting income helped force them into that. I am pretty sure that they will eventually get it right. With a bit of luck they will learn a few lessons along the way. Pride comes before a fall would be a good one to start with.
It is most impressive how a few are prepared to forgive McLaren anything when they seem to have left a trail of broken promises behind them.
Jonathan
Maybe big Ron should take a leaf out of someone else's book:
Toyota CEO: 'I Will Do My Best'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dqBnDGlIvw
Toyota CEO: 'I Will Do My Best'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dqBnDGlIvw
jtremlett said:
o it is irrelevant. McLaren made a lot of noise and promises about how they were going to change the game and they haven't. What many people were buying into and expecting from McLaren was that their car was going to be near perfect with top notch build quality etc etc. I don't think that's why anyone buys a Ferrari or Lamborghini, although the hope is that when McLaren do get it right they will force the competition to raise their games in that respect.
It is quite clear to me they began deliveries perhaps six months too early and I can fully undertstand that pressure from customers wanting cars and their accountants wanting income helped force them into that. I am pretty sure that they will eventually get it right. With a bit of luck they will learn a few lessons along the way. Pride comes before a fall would be a good one to start with.
It is most impressive how a few are prepared to forgive McLaren anything when they seem to have left a trail of broken promises behind them.
Jonathan
I agree with Jonathan. Yes, Italian build quality is dubious but that's not really the issue here. McLaren were, by their own pre-release claims, going to be a cut above everything else, as evidenced by this quote from Ron Dennis in March 2011 Top Gear Magazine:It is quite clear to me they began deliveries perhaps six months too early and I can fully undertstand that pressure from customers wanting cars and their accountants wanting income helped force them into that. I am pretty sure that they will eventually get it right. With a bit of luck they will learn a few lessons along the way. Pride comes before a fall would be a good one to start with.
It is most impressive how a few are prepared to forgive McLaren anything when they seem to have left a trail of broken promises behind them.
Jonathan
"We benchmarked the 12C against various cars, but when the Ferrari 458 appeared, we stopped benchmarking it against anything else. That's a great car. But choose any value, any measure, and our car will exceed it. We have always been passionate about measuring things scientifically. And we can prove scientifically that ours is the best sports car in history."
I'm happy to be contradicted here, but somehow I can't imagine Lambo or Ferrari - even accounting for the usual PR hyperbole - making such an insanely ambitious and arrogant claim. I've no vested interest here; as a poor petrolhead I'm as much of a Ferrari enthusiast as I would be for McLaren. When the MP4-12C is properly finished I hope it's eventually recognised as a truly great car - but right now it isn't. Feedback from the owners on this thread indicates that, in the real world, the MP4 does appear to live up to the hype - until one of the catalogue of faults impedes progress, or you can't open the door etc. Call me naive, but as someone who can only dream of owning £200k supercars, it somehow seems unacceptable to me to think it's OK to put up with faults that I don't encounter in my £1200 Renault Megane! (I know that's a slightly daft and extreme comparison!)
The debate in this thread in particular has been excellent, and passionate. However I'd suggest that the issue at stake is really that McLaren have actually let themselves, and their first adopters, down, because the first batch of cars just haven't been up to the ludicrously high standards that they so confidently promised. I don't think that anything could ever live up to what they promised!
I do hope Ron doesn't doo dating websites...
His add would be something like this;
'I benchmarked myself against various men, but when Bradley Cooper appeared, I stopped benchmarking against anyone else. He's a great guy. But choose any look, any measure, and I can exceed him. I have always been passionate about measuring things scientifically. And I can prove scientifically that mine is the biggest in history'
I would imagine that like some MP4 customers, the ladies would be dissapointed !!!
His add would be something like this;
'I benchmarked myself against various men, but when Bradley Cooper appeared, I stopped benchmarking against anyone else. He's a great guy. But choose any look, any measure, and I can exceed him. I have always been passionate about measuring things scientifically. And I can prove scientifically that mine is the biggest in history'
I would imagine that like some MP4 customers, the ladies would be dissapointed !!!
a letter from Ron Dennis from a 12c owner see full tread at http://mclarendriver.com/node/34
"It is with both pleasure and frustration that I am writing to you at this early stage in your ownership of the McLaren MP4-12C. Pleasure because you are now part of our McLaren family and have bought into what I believe to be both the best car in its class, and the most exciting automotive adventure in decades; but frustration on a personal level because we have not yet been able to deliver on the high standards that we have promised and that should come as given with the McLaren brand. We have built up our McLaren businesses over the past decades based on our determination to be the best, and that is no different for the MP4-12C and all of our future cars.
When we began working on the MP4-12C, we were determined to deliver not only the best car in its class, but also the best ownership experience. We believe that the performance and driving experience of the MP4-12C is world class. However, along the road to achieving our goals, we will experience challenges. As you will have already heard from my staff, we are experiencing some early software bugs resulting in unnecessarily sensitive warning lights, battery drainage in certain conditions and IRIS performance issues. My team and the McLaren retailers are working with the pace and intensity that the McLaren brand demands to fully resolve these bugs rapidly and effectively to ensure that any inconvenience to you is kept to a minimum. It will however require your 12C to come back to your dealer at some point so that we can upgrade the software on your car. I hope that the way we deal with these issues sets us apart and is to the standard you would expect from McLaren.
We know you share our passion for racing, therefore as a token of my appreciation for your support during this time, your retailer will be giving you a pre-release copy of the new 'McLaren: The Wins' coffee table book. I hope that you enjoy the stories behind what makes McLaren winners and that this, in some small way, reminds you how much we appreciate your faith in us. We want to win on the road as well as the track, and we will work tirelessly to achieve this goal.
I would like to extend my personal thanks for your support and patience at this time. Should you have any questions, please contact your retailer in the first instance. Alternatively, please call my staff at McLaren Assistance on 0800 975 8285."
All I can say is that I know of no other marque whose chairman would personally confirm in writing that their product has fallen short of their standard and commit to rectifying the issues...
"It is with both pleasure and frustration that I am writing to you at this early stage in your ownership of the McLaren MP4-12C. Pleasure because you are now part of our McLaren family and have bought into what I believe to be both the best car in its class, and the most exciting automotive adventure in decades; but frustration on a personal level because we have not yet been able to deliver on the high standards that we have promised and that should come as given with the McLaren brand. We have built up our McLaren businesses over the past decades based on our determination to be the best, and that is no different for the MP4-12C and all of our future cars.
When we began working on the MP4-12C, we were determined to deliver not only the best car in its class, but also the best ownership experience. We believe that the performance and driving experience of the MP4-12C is world class. However, along the road to achieving our goals, we will experience challenges. As you will have already heard from my staff, we are experiencing some early software bugs resulting in unnecessarily sensitive warning lights, battery drainage in certain conditions and IRIS performance issues. My team and the McLaren retailers are working with the pace and intensity that the McLaren brand demands to fully resolve these bugs rapidly and effectively to ensure that any inconvenience to you is kept to a minimum. It will however require your 12C to come back to your dealer at some point so that we can upgrade the software on your car. I hope that the way we deal with these issues sets us apart and is to the standard you would expect from McLaren.
We know you share our passion for racing, therefore as a token of my appreciation for your support during this time, your retailer will be giving you a pre-release copy of the new 'McLaren: The Wins' coffee table book. I hope that you enjoy the stories behind what makes McLaren winners and that this, in some small way, reminds you how much we appreciate your faith in us. We want to win on the road as well as the track, and we will work tirelessly to achieve this goal.
I would like to extend my personal thanks for your support and patience at this time. Should you have any questions, please contact your retailer in the first instance. Alternatively, please call my staff at McLaren Assistance on 0800 975 8285."
All I can say is that I know of no other marque whose chairman would personally confirm in writing that their product has fallen short of their standard and commit to rectifying the issues...
Good to see Ron taking such a personal interest in getting things sorted out as quickly as possible - perhaps he'll be able to spin this into some sort of PR triumph for McLaren's customer services and dealer network? For their sake I hope so. Despite what may well seem like negativity in some of my other posts, I do hope that McLaren will be able to establish themselves as a genuine alternative to the likes of Ferrari in time.
Just as an aside, were there any comparable problems with the SLR on release? I hesitate to ask about the F1, as it was made in such tiny quantities. Anecdotally, Rowan Atkinson said that he's put more than 30k miles on his F1 and driven it all over Europe, apparently without any problems (other than stacking it twice, of course!).
Just as an aside, were there any comparable problems with the SLR on release? I hesitate to ask about the F1, as it was made in such tiny quantities. Anecdotally, Rowan Atkinson said that he's put more than 30k miles on his F1 and driven it all over Europe, apparently without any problems (other than stacking it twice, of course!).
Am I disappointed with the current MP4 situation? Yes! Am I surprised? Absolutely not. The car is a very complicated thing with various systems not seen on a mass produced car before. Therefore any engineer worth his salt would tell you that teething problems are guaranteed.
McLaren's boasts about the car before launch I think were genuine if a little naive. They were trying to set themselves apart but instead have set themselves up.
They will get it right and I suspect these problems will become a footnote in their history. They will certainly learn from this and I suspect similar issues will not occur with future models. But expect a few
McLaren's boasts about the car before launch I think were genuine if a little naive. They were trying to set themselves apart but instead have set themselves up.
They will get it right and I suspect these problems will become a footnote in their history. They will certainly learn from this and I suspect similar issues will not occur with future models. But expect a few
I don't see why one would be impressed because the CEO of a company they've given £200k+ to for a faulty product writes them a letter. That should be the very first thing that happens, a CEO should lead and take responsibility for everything that happens while he is in charge.
"Here's a book to keep you quiet while your £200k car can't be driven". At least throw in the offer of some GP tickets Ron..
"Here's a book to keep you quiet while your £200k car can't be driven". At least throw in the offer of some GP tickets Ron..
The main dealer is struggling to sell my car. It appears that there is very little appetite out there. I suspect that the fact the car has problems and this is well documented means the days of jumping the que for a premium are over for the MP4-12C. It looks like I may be left to try and sell it myself or get in to a row and demand my money back.
I'm not a happy bunny.
I'm not a happy bunny.
ferdi p said:
I do hope Ron doesn't doo dating websites...
His add would be something like this;
'I benchmarked myself against various men, but when Bradley Cooper appeared, I stopped benchmarking against anyone else. He's a great guy. But choose any look, any measure, and I can exceed him. I have always been passionate about measuring things scientifically. And I can prove scientifically that mine is the biggest in history'
I would imagine that like some MP4 customers, the ladies would be dissapointed !!!
How about "And I am a self-made man, but sadly all the bits haven't arrived yet"!!His add would be something like this;
'I benchmarked myself against various men, but when Bradley Cooper appeared, I stopped benchmarking against anyone else. He's a great guy. But choose any look, any measure, and I can exceed him. I have always been passionate about measuring things scientifically. And I can prove scientifically that mine is the biggest in history'
I would imagine that like some MP4 customers, the ladies would be dissapointed !!!
concours g60 said:
a letter from Ron Dennis from a 12c owner see full tread at http://mclarendriver.com/node/34
All I can say is that I know of no other marque whose chairman would personally confirm in writing that their product has fallen short of their standard and commit to rectifying the issues...
maybe because it never happens that a manufacturer delivers with months of delays its cars unfinished or with so many niggles.All I can say is that I know of no other marque whose chairman would personally confirm in writing that their product has fallen short of their standard and commit to rectifying the issues...
what I can see is that you get a lot of gift when you buy a 12C : an ipod, a book...soon they will give some button's and hamilton signed caps
Streetrod said:
Therefore any engineer worth his salt would tell you that teething problems are guaranteed.
I strongly disagree. Any good engineer will tell you that they haven't tested properly, it's that simple. I would be embarrassed to be the head of the engineering dept at McL right now, honestly. I've worked in automotive engineering for many years and this is the biggest shambles ever.
So some of you have said that they had to get the cars out as people were waiting for them and they didn't want to disappoint them.
Well, how did that work out for you McLaren? Instead of your customers having to wait another 6 months for their cars, and then have a perfect working car which they would cherish and keep for many years you now have people handing cars back, production 'halted' and McLaren left with a very poor image for quality.
But hey, Ron sent out a letter. Whoop.
I'm not even an owner and this whole situation annoys the crap out of me.
Beefmeister said:
I strongly disagree. Any good engineer will tell you that they haven't tested properly, it's that simple.
I would be embarrassed to be the head of the engineering dept at McL right now, honestly. I've worked in automotive engineering for many years and this is the biggest shambles ever.
So some of you have said that they had to get the cars out as people were waiting for them and they didn't want to disappoint them.
Well, how did that work out for you McLaren? Instead of your customers having to wait another 6 months for their cars, and then have a perfect working car which they would cherish and keep for many years you now have people handing cars back, production 'halted' and McLaren left with a very poor image for quality.
But hey, Ron sent out a letter. Whoop.
I'm not even an owner and this whole situation annoys the crap out of me.
yes, the launch of a car is crucial as it affects its reputation for the rest of its life. it has to be as perfect as possible. if the development team knows there are some issues, they are not doing their job.I would be embarrassed to be the head of the engineering dept at McL right now, honestly. I've worked in automotive engineering for many years and this is the biggest shambles ever.
So some of you have said that they had to get the cars out as people were waiting for them and they didn't want to disappoint them.
Well, how did that work out for you McLaren? Instead of your customers having to wait another 6 months for their cars, and then have a perfect working car which they would cherish and keep for many years you now have people handing cars back, production 'halted' and McLaren left with a very poor image for quality.
But hey, Ron sent out a letter. Whoop.
I'm not even an owner and this whole situation annoys the crap out of me.
that some bits are not well adjusted on some cars (wheel arch liner or rear window) is part of refining the production methods. but that the electronic isn't working on almost every cars is strange : how did they drive the car for the past 4 years in development??? and the journalists had cars working fine.
now, of course, they can save the situation. mercedes managed to do it with the 1st A-class, but they probably spent a lot of money and energy to do so. mclaren doesn't have the engineering power of mercedes, so it will be tough. and PR doesnt seem to be their strength.
also, someone on this thread, who seemed well informed, mentionned that the electronic in the car never worked properly, that the engine wasn't cooled enough and that the gearbox was porous.
Edited by snaelro on Thursday 20th October 09:06
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