Unusual F40 owner!
Discussion
With respect that is just a generalisation.
So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
AndrewD said:
With respect that is just a generalisation.
So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
I know what you mean, it was a generalisation.So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
The bit I've highlighted in bold is an example of why trends happen. It is confirmation rather than contradiction.
Some people made a lot of profit doing something (in this case with classic cars,) others saw this profit and did the same. They made a profit too. As more and more people see how easy it is, more and more people decide that they can do it too. The longer it goes on, the more people are involved and the more they are paying. The trend is unsustainable because there isn't an infinite amount of people who can pay an infinite amount of money for an infinite amount of time.
It's just the way it is.
Tulip bulbs and the South Sea Bubble are extreme examples but it happens to a smaller degree with other trends. Ponzi schemes are interesting too.
It's also worth remembering that a broker will make money in a bull or bear market.
You're fortunate because you've bought your car because you want it, rather than because you expect to make money on it, but there are plenty of other people who don't think like that.
I would only buy one if, like you, I wanted to keep it.
AndrewD said:
With respect that is just a generalisation.
So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
I think there is an element in the current market of cars as an alternative investment. There are historically low interest rates, stock markets are still risky (and arguably a bubble too), financial instruments are increasingly complex and potentially risky (and have poor PR) - whereas with a car, if all goes to pot at least you still have an asset. Your 288 is still a great pleasure to own even if you lose £100k. So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
Cars are also gains tax free in the UK, again making them an attractive investment. It's just my opinion but when assets become "investments" rather being enjoyed for their intrinsic value that is when a bubble is likely to form although I accept the anecdotal evidence that it's a more enthusiast - rather than speculator based - boom at the moment compared to the 1980s.
Continued record breaking auction prices again hint that there is heat in the market but I do wonder whether that is sustainable. On the flip-side "blue chip" art is still comparatively expensive compared to cars so perhaps if there is a bubble it's at least bigger in other asset classes.
I'd be surprised if there wasn't plenty of borrowing against cars - certainly in the modern "premium" marketplace - and even against classic cars too (like many other investments).
Monty Zoomer said:
AndrewD said:
Monty Zoomer said:
POORCARDEALER said:
I do wonder where this will stop ....
Dinos £150k
DB5 £500k
Etc
Is the market going to boil over like the late 80s??
Dinos £150k
DB5 £500k
Etc
Is the market going to boil over like the late 80s??
I spoke to a few people who were involved then and now and they say the markets are fundamentally different.
This time the bubble is based on a distrust of the financial systems. As soon as the top levels of private investors realise they can make money though financial institutions, the sheep-like investors will follow and as the prices of classic cars start to fall people will panic and sell, causing further 'correction'.
That's a very over simplified way of putting it, the reality is much more intricate, but it will happen.
That's how trends happen, people copy what the wise people have done but the majority are too late. The lose money because the wise people were there first and they made money.
To a large extent the classic car boom of the late 80's, in the UK, was exacerbated by the willingness then of mainstream finance houses to lend to all and sundry to fund many of these "rock solid investments" on very thin terms.
This isn't happening now to any great extent.
As someone who was involved with recovering/resolving many of these "classic deals" at the time once things had crashed, it was abundantly clear that neither the lenders or borrowers really had any idea of that market.
No one was immune, from household names to ordinary Joe's, but boy did we get to drive some cracking cars ....
Edited by Egbert Nobacon on Sunday 7th July 12:24
Tulip bulbs and the South Sea Bubble are extreme examples but it happens to a smaller degree with other trends. Ponzi schemes are interesting too. (Quote)
Price are getting rich, no doubt about it. However that doesn't necessarily result in a crash. I'd guess any likely correction would would disproportionately affect the more mass produced cars that have been dragged up recently. I think prices will fall but the very best, rarest and those deemed to have special history will hold their own.
Ponzi schemes are a different kettle of fish, being downright fraud - more equivalent to being sold a Ferrari badged MR2 as the real thing.
late eighties : everyone investing in property and making paper money, stock markets booming and flotations two-a-penny, new and old car markets going crazy, lots of stuff being imported
currently : stock markets flat, fixed income returns next to nothing, property market peaky only in places, old car markets taking off, lots of new stuff being exported
some way to go before we see premiums on standard 911s, and new 8-cylinder ferraris marked-up 50%...
currently : stock markets flat, fixed income returns next to nothing, property market peaky only in places, old car markets taking off, lots of new stuff being exported
some way to go before we see premiums on standard 911s, and new 8-cylinder ferraris marked-up 50%...
woppum said:
AndrewD said:
I really am lost for words. Enjoy your Sunday
I actually agree with mr zoomer. His explanation makes far ore sense to me.It could have applied last year, next year, or in five years' time.
It lacks any insight on today, which was the original point (market overheating blah blah).
Crap time to buy a new 458 in any case
will_ said:
AndrewD said:
With respect that is just a generalisation.
So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
I think there is an element in the current market of cars as an alternative investment. There are historically low interest rates, stock markets are still risky (and arguably a bubble too), financial instruments are increasingly complex and potentially risky (and have poor PR) - whereas with a car, if all goes to pot at least you still have an asset. Your 288 is still a great pleasure to own even if you lose £100k. So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
Cars are also gains tax free in the UK, again making them an attractive investment. It's just my opinion but when assets become "investments" rather being enjoyed for their intrinsic value that is when a bubble is likely to form although I accept the anecdotal evidence that it's a more enthusiast - rather than speculator based - boom at the moment compared to the 1980s.
Continued record breaking auction prices again hint that there is heat in the market but I do wonder whether that is sustainable. On the flip-side "blue chip" art is still comparatively expensive compared to cars so perhaps if there is a bubble it's at least bigger in other asset classes.
I'd be surprised if there wasn't plenty of borrowing against cars - certainly in the modern "premium" marketplace - and even against classic cars too (like many other investments).
Ph'ers. You buy it to to drive it. Fast hard or slow and silently either way your call. If you own a beautiful car you must get out and drive it get in you car and give it some beans Took the f40 out today drove to hr owen and test drove an f12. Different. My f40 is raw and savage scary on red line and old Skool no electronic no servo no power steering no computer smells like sweat and fear. I am not kidding drive it with a tight little spinxter Be careful it's easily f
ked Once fked its worthless the f12. Well it's awesome In a digital way. My f40. (Which is the one for sale) is analogue its manic its original and its rare. Not new but harks from a bygone era. Love and hate it but respect it for what it was and is....An over powered super car of the 90's. and above all an icon
ked Once fked its worthless the f12. Well it's awesome In a digital way. My f40. (Which is the one for sale) is analogue its manic its original and its rare. Not new but harks from a bygone era. Love and hate it but respect it for what it was and is....An over powered super car of the 90's. and above all an iconAndrewD said:
will_ said:
AndrewD said:
With respect that is just a generalisation.
So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
I think there is an element in the current market of cars as an alternative investment. There are historically low interest rates, stock markets are still risky (and arguably a bubble too), financial instruments are increasingly complex and potentially risky (and have poor PR) - whereas with a car, if all goes to pot at least you still have an asset. Your 288 is still a great pleasure to own even if you lose £100k. So I talked with a gentleman who probably brokers the sales of more 288s, F40s, F50s, Enzos etc than anybody else and has done for years. His observations are interesting and contradict yours. That's great, everybody is entitled to their opinion.
For what it is worth to you, our conversation concluded that the 80s bubble was driven by a mad scramble for cars as alternative investments, with many buyers who had no knowledge or passion piling in, much of it with borrowed money. Current activity is very different, buyers are generally knowledgeable, they want the cars for what they are, most purchases are cash, and once bought are not being rotated out of collections every 2-3 years and supply is restricted.
To further contradict you with actual experience, I bought my 288 just over a year ago and have already turned down 3 offers at near 100% profit. It is not for sale. I know several others like me. We aren't stupid, clearly it is simply not about the money.
Cars are also gains tax free in the UK, again making them an attractive investment. It's just my opinion but when assets become "investments" rather being enjoyed for their intrinsic value that is when a bubble is likely to form although I accept the anecdotal evidence that it's a more enthusiast - rather than speculator based - boom at the moment compared to the 1980s.
Continued record breaking auction prices again hint that there is heat in the market but I do wonder whether that is sustainable. On the flip-side "blue chip" art is still comparatively expensive compared to cars so perhaps if there is a bubble it's at least bigger in other asset classes.
I'd be surprised if there wasn't plenty of borrowing against cars - certainly in the modern "premium" marketplace - and even against classic cars too (like many other investments).
Fundamentally I agree that the current boom in prices is more enthusiast than speculator lead but when you hear of an investment fund specifically for classic cars I do wonder whether that indicates a return to the 1980s "bubble" market.
johnnyreggae said:
100 IAN said:
Went for the F40
100 IAN said:
No one bidded on it.
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