RE: Ferrari brews V10 for next model
Tuesday 22nd November 2005
Ferrari F430 SpiderThere's a rumour emanating from Maranello that Ferrari is developing a V10 engine to power the successor to the F430 -- just as the F1-inspired cachet of the V10 is about to disappear because of changes in FIA regulations resulting in next year's F1 series running with V8s.
Ferrari brews V10 for next model?
Maranello plays catch-up with Lamborghini
Ferrari F430 Spider
According to AutoWeek, it'll be a four-valve-per-cylinder, 5.4-litre V8 based on the 90-degree block in the F430. The impetus for the move came from marketing comparisons with the Lamborghini 5-litre V10 in the Gallardo.
The V10 got a 10 per cent power boost when fitted to the Spyder and now develops 520bhp at 8,000rpm, punting the heavier soft-top to 62mph in 4.3 seconds and a top speed of 196mph with the roof up. By comparison, the F430's V8 puts out 490bhp for a 0-60mph figure of four seconds and an identical top speed -- so it's no slouch.
Discussion
I remember reading comments in 'evo' that Ferrari were not going to move to a V10, because V12 customers loved the classic Ferrari engine latout and the customers of it's racier models actually wanted the high-pitched wail of their V8s, not the drone of a V10.....so, what gives? Are they losing faith in their own abilities, having to follow Lamborghini?
Combover
Combover
You'd think Ferrari wouldn't get into this pathetic VAG/MB power war (consdering Lambo is VAG)...
Do Ferrari need to prove they can make the same engine with 5bhp more than Lambo?
I thought Ferrari did a great job with the new F430, they focussed on lighter weight, rear wheel drive, excellent power to weight and specific output etc.
Why dilute their purity to just compete on paper a bit better?
Guess thats what the new buyers of such cars are looking for now, on paper stats, not the driving experience!
Dave
Do Ferrari need to prove they can make the same engine with 5bhp more than Lambo?
I thought Ferrari did a great job with the new F430, they focussed on lighter weight, rear wheel drive, excellent power to weight and specific output etc.
Why dilute their purity to just compete on paper a bit better?
Guess thats what the new buyers of such cars are looking for now, on paper stats, not the driving experience!
Dave
just doesn't make sense. Strikes me as an utterly pointless exercise. 30 extra bhp, a similar bump in torque, but then they have to think about packaging, dynamics and handling, cooling, increased kerb weight etc all of which pretty much negate any benefits of the extra power. Considering there are some pretty potent aftermarket conversions out there for the existing V8's, surely Ferrari could come up with an even better V8 itself?!
Mr Whippy said:
Why dilute their purity to just compete on paper a bit better?
Guess thats what the new buyers of such cars are looking for now, on paper stats, not the driving experience!
Dave
I agree, the performance car market is all about stats, lead by marketing key messages. A friend of mine is buying a F430 because it looks nice and has a tighter turning circle than the Porsche Cayenne he had on loan, WTF!!!
Interesting point about the "On paper stats". The Veyron is probably the most extreme example of this, but shouldn't the overall experience be the top priority? I'm sure a Veyron is great fun on the straights, but for cornering something far smaller and nimble would win it for me. Maybe an Elise? Cars are getting too big these days... And as for Ferrari, it should be pioneering not copying, what does VAG know about sports cars anyway? Stick with a high revving RWD V8 for the replacement for the 430 (no 4x4).
Strange move indeed...
I remember when I heard about the Dodge Viper. It had a V10 engine which was developed from a truck engine.
For an american car that's cool!
All other V10's can't excite me.
When idling, the V10 of the M5 sounds like a Massey Ferguson for cryin' out loud!
Why does this happen? (When) does this stop? And where?
I remember when I heard about the Dodge Viper. It had a V10 engine which was developed from a truck engine.
For an american car that's cool!
All other V10's can't excite me.
When idling, the V10 of the M5 sounds like a Massey Ferguson for cryin' out loud!
Why does this happen? (When) does this stop? And where?
r988 said:
Just a thought, they may be taking the 3XX series further upmarket (as all models inevitably do) and then introducing a smaller Dinoesque base model
dinkel said:
. . . Where did all the small Rari's go? 2006 308 anyone . . .
That's what I say . . . A < 400 horse driverscar with a yum high-revving v8 and LIGHTWEIGHT please . . .
Enough ideas
Enough ideas
Ferrari Aurea Berlinetta DGF
F430 just came out... Ferrari is thinking very weirly about V10...
F430 makes like what? 490bhp figure looks pretty good, putting 2 more cylinders and 1.1
litres on top of current engine only makes 30bhp more and is a very undesireable result.
Don't you think so? Of course, torque will benefit the most but bigger engine means more
weight to the engine. Current F430 is good enough, I think.
Instead, putting a folding metal roof on Spyder is certainly smart move... maybe instead
of aluminium that currently employed by Merc SL class, magnisium certainly looks
promising. Carbon fiber or even kevlar? Cost isn't that much concern for a car like Ferrari. Isn't it?
>> Edited by kittridge on Tuesday 22 November 15:36
F430 makes like what? 490bhp figure looks pretty good, putting 2 more cylinders and 1.1
litres on top of current engine only makes 30bhp more and is a very undesireable result.
Don't you think so? Of course, torque will benefit the most but bigger engine means more
weight to the engine. Current F430 is good enough, I think.
Instead, putting a folding metal roof on Spyder is certainly smart move... maybe instead
of aluminium that currently employed by Merc SL class, magnisium certainly looks
promising. Carbon fiber or even kevlar? Cost isn't that much concern for a car like Ferrari. Isn't it?
>> Edited by kittridge on Tuesday 22 November 15:36
Ferrari should invest the money for developing a V10 into getting the F430's successor lighter instead. This benefits braking, handling and cornering as well as acceleration. Having a great big engine only makes you quicker in a straight line under acceleration, everywhere else favours low weight.
Forget Lambo, Ferrari is probably just as worried about V8 compressor Mercs and V10 BMW taxi-lookalikes flying past. As well they should be.
Ferrari looks like it is basing its development on F1, but what once the pinnacle of technology is now backward compared to just about anything else on the track.
Apart from upping the ante in cilinder count, they should be the ones that bring out the first laser-ignition, computerised sliding-valve, stochiometric injected, variable capacity engines with a much higher bhp/cm3 ratio than those archaic lumps that are now the standard.
How can you sell a Ferrari as a technical marvel when a Lexus jeep has more technology?
That said, their V8 sounds way better than the Audi V10
Ferrari looks like it is basing its development on F1, but what once the pinnacle of technology is now backward compared to just about anything else on the track.
Apart from upping the ante in cilinder count, they should be the ones that bring out the first laser-ignition, computerised sliding-valve, stochiometric injected, variable capacity engines with a much higher bhp/cm3 ratio than those archaic lumps that are now the standard.
How can you sell a Ferrari as a technical marvel when a Lexus jeep has more technology?
That said, their V8 sounds way better than the Audi V10
errek72 said:
Forget Lambo, Ferrari is probably just as worried about V8 compressor Mercs and V10 BMW taxi-lookalikes flying past.
That said, their V8 sounds way better than the Audi V10
430 / 360 V8s are among the best sounding NA mills ever. But hey, I guess the days of real cars is all over. Back to classics. Lambo Countach / Diablo V12 & Rari 8s with carbs in our dreams gents.
Remember that talk about Ferrari taking over the Front-engine/RWD chassis they developed for the next Maserati Spyder which would use a V8? Perhaps they're now serious and are upping the next 430 to fit in between the "base" V8 model and the V12-powered 575 replacement? I don't imagine they'll be abandoning V8's any time soon what with all that development on the F1 engine.
Perhaps, I'm just speculating (as all this is), the idea to develop the F1 V10 for the road cars has been in the works for a long time, before the switch to V8's in F1 came along.
Perhaps, I'm just speculating (as all this is), the idea to develop the F1 V10 for the road cars has been in the works for a long time, before the switch to V8's in F1 came along.
Am I the only person here who thinks that Ferrari 'progression' has got a bit, err, unimaginative?
I mean, back in the '80s, when they wanted to make a car do 200mph, they stripped it out, bolted on two turbochargers, sent it to the Scuderia for the whole racecar treatment and we got the 288GTO and the F40. With the F50, they tried to incorporate an F1 car into a road car and they've done the same with the Enzo.
All the while, the V8 models have continued with a few tweaks here and there, improving the idea of a small(ish), light(ish) mid-engined sports car with an engine that, for a V8, is quite small.
But after the delectable F355 they seem to have run out of ideas. The 360 was like an F355, but lardier and with a bigger engine. The F430 is like a 360, but lardier and with a V8 the size of the Testarossa's V12.
In ten year's time are we going to be looking at the Ferrari F950, weighing in at four tonnes with its 9.5-litre V8 built specially to keep up with Lamborghini's 10-litre V10? Is that 'progress'?
At some point supercar engineers from either Ferrari or Lamborghini are going to have to take stock and say 'look guys, we're going to have to change the plan'. Making cars with bigger and bigger engines every few years is an engineering black hole that (IMO) stems from American muscle car practise - and look what a Japanese 3-litre twin-turbo rocket will do to those on the dragstrip.
The last great Ferrari IMO - that is, a truly race-inspired, thoughtfully conceived and not commercially-minded Ferrari - was the 360 Challenge Stradale. If they'd bolted F40-style turbos to that instead of just making it bigger all round, I'd have been impressed.
Look at the Lotus Esprit - just three engine sizes there - 2-litre, 2.2 and 3.5 - yet constant attention to Lotus' race engineering kept it competetive. These 'displacement/power wars' between manufacturers reminds me of a certain 45-year fracas involving America, Russia and some nuclear missiles - and look how that ended.
I mean, back in the '80s, when they wanted to make a car do 200mph, they stripped it out, bolted on two turbochargers, sent it to the Scuderia for the whole racecar treatment and we got the 288GTO and the F40. With the F50, they tried to incorporate an F1 car into a road car and they've done the same with the Enzo.
All the while, the V8 models have continued with a few tweaks here and there, improving the idea of a small(ish), light(ish) mid-engined sports car with an engine that, for a V8, is quite small.
But after the delectable F355 they seem to have run out of ideas. The 360 was like an F355, but lardier and with a bigger engine. The F430 is like a 360, but lardier and with a V8 the size of the Testarossa's V12.
In ten year's time are we going to be looking at the Ferrari F950, weighing in at four tonnes with its 9.5-litre V8 built specially to keep up with Lamborghini's 10-litre V10? Is that 'progress'?
At some point supercar engineers from either Ferrari or Lamborghini are going to have to take stock and say 'look guys, we're going to have to change the plan'. Making cars with bigger and bigger engines every few years is an engineering black hole that (IMO) stems from American muscle car practise - and look what a Japanese 3-litre twin-turbo rocket will do to those on the dragstrip.
The last great Ferrari IMO - that is, a truly race-inspired, thoughtfully conceived and not commercially-minded Ferrari - was the 360 Challenge Stradale. If they'd bolted F40-style turbos to that instead of just making it bigger all round, I'd have been impressed.
Look at the Lotus Esprit - just three engine sizes there - 2-litre, 2.2 and 3.5 - yet constant attention to Lotus' race engineering kept it competetive. These 'displacement/power wars' between manufacturers reminds me of a certain 45-year fracas involving America, Russia and some nuclear missiles - and look how that ended.
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