Considering a DB11?

[drocter81]

AMGWiz said:

Couldn't agree more. I put the PS5s on mine; they massively reduced the road noise and massivly increased the levels of grip. I no longer have the rear breaking loose with the merest of provocation! I wonder how much of the improved handling on the DB12 is down to the fact that they now fit PR5s as OEM...

Regarding the AMR upgrade. I see lots of people saying it's just software - well yes, the engine/gearbox upgrade is, but the AMR version had quite a lot of chassis and steering updates too (according to AM's chief engineer) which transformed the handling. In fact, when the V8 was first released, people raved about how much better it handled and mistakenly thought it was just down to the lighter nose, but whilst that helped, it wasn't the whole story. AM put all the "AMR" chassis updates on the V8 first. They then brought out the V12 in AMR guise with the same chassis updates that had been used on the V8. Later they dropped the AMR badge, but all V12s made after the AMR were basically still AMRs as they had the same updates.

You can read more about it and the interview with AMs chief engineer here: https://www.evo.co.uk/aston-martin/db11-coupe/2130...

Having spoken with an AM development engineer, I can confirm that the dealer-sourced AMR software update impacts engine, gearbox, damper and exhaust calibration.

The 2022 Model Year revisions retained these software changes, but reverted to pre-AMR suspension hardware, with thinner ARB and softer bushes.There were further gearbox calibration improvements that factory AMR cars will have missed, that you will have benefitted from, if opting for a dealer-sourced AMR upgrade from July 2021 onwards.

Edited by drocter81 on Thursday 11th April 00:17

[TonyChocolony]

Absolutely superb write up Calinours, thank you. Couldn't agree more with all your points.

[Calinours]

TonyChocolony said:

Absolutely superb write up Calinours, thank you. Couldn't agree more with all your points.

Thanks - Much appreciated

I copy below another little post I did about the engine. I hope that you also enjoy.

Originally posted by me sometime in late 2023:

Well, we have a thread about the fantastic AMG V8 variants as used by AML. Some on here will know that I’m both an owner and a fan of the other recent Aston engine offering, the turbo V12.

For anyone else who may be interested in the blown V12, the AE31 (Aston Martin Engine # 31) as fitted to DB11, DBSS, V12 Vantage 2016-2023 and a handful of more limited and expensive, still continuing bespoke stuff (Speedster, Valour), some info as to why it never set the high performance world, even the Aston world on fire…

As well as being immensely strong and smooth, fact is the AE31 is an extremely well engineered and robust engine, and does not get the respect it deserves, even in the petrolhead places like PH.

This is partly because of timing, partly bad luck, but mainly bad decisions/poor management. Such decisions hurt sales, damaged reputation and of course ultimately contributed to the ousting of the previous management.

Some reasons IMHO the fabulous AE31 was almost DOA..

1. It was launched in the DB11, which while beautiful, many considered it not such an instant design classic as the DB9.

2. It was downsized (5935cc to 5204cc) redesign of the long serving, well developed and much loved Ford bankrolled n/a V12 and it was turbocharged. Being turbo put a lot of puristy Aston folk off, even though 5 litre plus blown engines were nothing new for AM.

3. A huge heavy V12 launched when the world was already downsizing to smaller lighter configurations and just beginning the move away from the IC engine altogether.

4. The V12 should not have been launched first. The AMG V8 powered version of the DB11, launched just over a year later had an extra years worth of chassis development (stiffer bushings, retuned dampers) and was 100kg lighter in the nose, was over USD20k cheaper and had almost the same torque as the very heavily sandbagged V12. So of course the V8 car felt just as fast, and way sharper. After driving the V8 and talking to AM engineers at its launch who freely admitted a bit of tweaking and chassis development (because that’s what happens…) all the fickle journos who had so loved the V12 a year earlier then slagged it off. They should have launched the AMG V8 first as the ‘cooking’ version, then the higher end own-engine V12 later.

5. AM made the mistake of panicking when V12 sales fell as a result of the success of the V8, they said they were ‘withdrawing’ the V12 and ‘replacing’ it with the ‘new’ DB11 AMR. This was a bit cynical, the AMR was 99.9% the same car as the DB11. All AM did was copy the hardware chassis tweaks made for the V8, these being slightly harder subframe bushes. AM also claimed a very slightly (0.5mm or 40thou) thicker front ARB. Apart from the light forged wheels, smoked rear lamps, dark headlamp internals, and some garish AMR logos, it’s the same suite of hardware, the same car. The key differences for the AMR were essentially new firmware maps for the sportier driveline and suspension modes, ie recalibrated engine, transmission and dampers. The 30hp higher peak on the AMR came from holding onto that heavily limited 700Nm of torque for another 500rpm at the top end.

AM effectively disowning their own product so soon really damaged the original DB11 V12 with it being essentially disregarded as a failure within 2 years of its own launch. Watch any slightly ill informed youtuber video review. Such stuff does nothing for the reputation of the company, the product or, sadly, its own fabulous V12 engine.

6. Perhaps the biggest mistake - the specification of the ZF8HP70 in all versions of DB11. This version of the ZF8 was rated at 700Nm maximum (hence the name) This was fine for the AMG 4.0 V8, which at that time was maxing out at around 685Nm, but meant that the V12, even in AMR tune, had to be heavily torque limited, to just 700Nm. Using a low spec and presumably lower cost transmission (ZF8HP75 was available in 2016) meant that AML could never, during its entire run in the DB11, really differentiate their mighty, in house, 5.2 V12 from the much cheaper AMG 4.0 V8.

Only when the far more expensive DBS Suoerleggerra was launched in 2018 did we get to see what the V12 was really made of. It had the ZF8HP95 and the otherwise exact same AE31’s twin, twin scroll turbos could finally be allowed some boost. In DBSS, the AE31’s Torque went from 700 to 900Nm. Power went to 726hp and the last versions (DBS ultimate) left the factory (again, exact same AE31 engine assembly part number) with 770hp. I’d lay odds that the aftermarket, esp in USA could easily take this motor to 1000hp with minimal changes, perhaps just new fuel pumps and turbos.

7. Traction. The front engined rear drive DB11 and DBS always struggled to get their power down. They were both traction limited. It meant fairly ordinary numbers for those who cared. This was partly due to the continued used of those awful hard Bridgestone tyres, a hangover from the Ford days. Modern sticky tyres improve things greatly.

Fact is, the AE31 was and is a beast, an absolute mother of a motor. It was designed from the outset with a very high quality forged crank, forged rods and forged pistons. It is immensely strong and immensely smooth, even in low boost excellent throttle response DB11 form, and with most of the exhaust gases bypassing the turbos to limit the power it makes a fabulous exhaust noise, despite being turbocharged, as well as an intoxicating intake roar under heavy acceleration and high rpm. It is a true Aston Martin Engine.

https://youtu.be/0IREtCujKJk?si=CPV4-mams6usnhqh

Edited by Calinours on Saturday 13th April 22:13

Edited by Calinours on Saturday 13th April 22:19

[TonyChocolony]

Thanks again Calinours. I finally picked up my first Aston- a V12 DB11- a few months ago. After initially looking at VH platforms- GTs and late model Vanquishes - I noticed DB11s at a steep discount. I considered the newer tech, warranty and the fact that it might be the last Aston with that magnificent V12 and test drove both it and the V8. It was no competition. The AE31 is a masterpiece; a real keeper.

Even more gratifying after the purchase has been my continued apathy for the looks of the exterior of DB12- I just can't make peace with that basking shark grill, superb car though it may be . Gripes about the DB11s Mercedes "switchology" aside, I think the DB11 is another contender for greatest Aston (aren't they all?) and an incomparable GT.