Discussion
The expert assessment is that, on it's own, you won't get much from a remap on a relatively highly tuned NA engine. Have a read of Mike Bamford's thoughts on the first page of his sticky: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
"ECU Re-mapping:
An upgrade ECU (engine control unit) Re-map seems another very popular modification, but seriously, buyer beware, there are some vendors selling the emperors clothes.
To give you an example why this statement is true, regarding the AMV8, performance is achieved at peak power by running a certain; variable inlet cam position, airflow, spark timing and fuelling value. So, anybody considering an ECU re-map, where an increase in performance is being offered, should ask the vendor these questions before making a purchase;
Will a re-map ECU change the variable inlet cam position giving more performance? = No, as manufacturer set cams to optimum in the standard map.
Will a re-map ECU provide more airflow giving more performance? = No, as the throttle is set wide open by manufacturer at full driver pedal demand.
Will a re-map ECU advance the spark? = No, as when running 97 Octane fuel the knock control sensors deliver optimum spark at all times.
Will a re-map ECU return a fuelling based performance gain? Yes, but only if fuel is taken out. The maximum performance fuelling for most engines is 0.89 lambda and represents the 'plateau' of torque output. Richer (more fuel) than this (a figure less than 0.89) will detract performance, leaner (less fuel) than 0.89 and up to lambda 1.00, will also loose performance. The lambda value of the AMV8 Vantage at peak power speed is circa. 0.79. This is because additional fuel (more / richer than 0.89) is required to quench / reduce catalyst temperatures to their maximum permissible, via more fuel resulting in a cooler exhaust gas temperature. So, if fuelling is taken out (going from 0.79 lambda to 0.89), performance will increase by approx. 5BHP per 0.05 Lambda. So, by taking 0.1 lambda out to return 0.89 will result in an increase of circa 10BHP. But, if fuel is taken out, this will over-temp the catalysts (from the hotter exhaust gas temperature due to the leaner mixture), with disastrous consequences (broken cat, burnt-out exhaust valve seats - expensive repair bill). However, the common approach by most aftermarket tuning companies is to 'hose-in' more fuel, under the misconception this act will return more power. Trying to get some people to understand the inverse can often be quite difficult...!
So, what other options are there to increase driveability from an ECU re-map?
Increased engine speed perhaps? I recall a commonly spoken about ECU re-flash on this forum, which increased engine speed limit up to 7500 rpm. Will this return more power? No, because one of the biggest contributing factors to engine performance is the length / volume of the inlet runner within the inlet manifold. The AMV8 achieves peak power at 7300 rpm, above that speed power drops off dramatically. So, if speed is increased and the runner length is not shortened, there will be no power increase. However, due to the engine revs being higher at point of gearshift into the next gear from redline, torque output will be higher. This means that when the next gear is selected the driver will feel increased torque and 'perceive' a small performance increase. In reality what is this worth? Very, very little, unless you hit the redline in each and every gear change.
Last thing on the list then; throttle progression mapping.
What this basically means is the rate of increase and percentage the pedal is depressed by the driver returns a pre-programmed torque output figure. More torque delivered from the engine for less pedal input from the driver, gives the driver the 'perception' that the car has sportier driveability feel. In reality do you get more performance? No, as the engine produces the same torque as it always did, it's just the driver is fooled into thinking performance is greater due to less pedal input giving faster acceleration. An analogy to explain this is where rally drivers fit quick rack steering system, less turns to go from lock-to-lock. This is needed because its time consuming and physically difficult to go from lock-to-lock. In reality, is it that difficult to depress the pedal to give the required torque the driver wants? Not in my opinion. Experimentation with aggressive pedal demand maps on all Aston Martin cars returns more thrilling driveability. But in reality, try parking the car or move backwards and forwards slowly in confined spaces - a disaster..! My advice is stick with the pedal maps set by the manufacturer, as what is programmed by them has been researched and tested in all circumstances - but each to their own I guess.
long story short, will an ECU Re-map return significant improvements? No, and those aftermarket tuning companies who advertise significant gains are trading the emperors clothes.
Anybody thinking about an ECU Re-map should question the vendor hard, get them to explain the detail behind the pretty 3d mapping graphs they display (if they can that is). Another tip, ask for your ECU to remain in the car and after a series of baseline tests plug the modified ECU in and back-to-back drive / feel what you are being sold. If they offer excuses why this cant be done, steer clear
That being said, the only ECU update / kit with any credibility is actually being offered by the factory. This kit comprises of a new airbox which reduces induction system losses and an ECU programmed to advance the spark if 100 Octane fuel is used. The factory took this kit from the N400 and now offers as a retro fit to 4.3L Vantage at the price of 2k. The factory declares 20BHP, this represents approx. 50/50 split from the increased performance coming from each element (airbox/fuel). But, the factory upgrade here, similar to the exhaust system modifications, will only return more performance / better driveability above 5500rpm. And if the driver hasnt filled with 100 octane, the kit will only return 10 of the 20BHP due to the knock control system reducing spark back down to 97 Octane numbers.
The reason why most drivers want more performance from the 4.3L vantage is not necessarily the way the engine performs above 5500rpm, but how torque output gets you there.
At 420Nm the 4.3L engine can hardly be described as lacking torque (when compared with Porsche engine performance figures), but the weight of the Vantage could be identified as route cause for slightly lacklustre acceleration. For this reason the wise performance upgrade should come from a massive torque increase, which as explained here, will not come from an ECU re-map, exhaust system or air induction system. As the adage goes, there is no replacement for displacement! The 4.3L Vantage requires a significant torque increase to return thrilling SuperCar performance."
To answer your question directly, I've never heard of longlife (other than regarding milk!) so can't help you there, I'm afraid.
"ECU Re-mapping:
An upgrade ECU (engine control unit) Re-map seems another very popular modification, but seriously, buyer beware, there are some vendors selling the emperors clothes.
To give you an example why this statement is true, regarding the AMV8, performance is achieved at peak power by running a certain; variable inlet cam position, airflow, spark timing and fuelling value. So, anybody considering an ECU re-map, where an increase in performance is being offered, should ask the vendor these questions before making a purchase;
Will a re-map ECU change the variable inlet cam position giving more performance? = No, as manufacturer set cams to optimum in the standard map.
Will a re-map ECU provide more airflow giving more performance? = No, as the throttle is set wide open by manufacturer at full driver pedal demand.
Will a re-map ECU advance the spark? = No, as when running 97 Octane fuel the knock control sensors deliver optimum spark at all times.
Will a re-map ECU return a fuelling based performance gain? Yes, but only if fuel is taken out. The maximum performance fuelling for most engines is 0.89 lambda and represents the 'plateau' of torque output. Richer (more fuel) than this (a figure less than 0.89) will detract performance, leaner (less fuel) than 0.89 and up to lambda 1.00, will also loose performance. The lambda value of the AMV8 Vantage at peak power speed is circa. 0.79. This is because additional fuel (more / richer than 0.89) is required to quench / reduce catalyst temperatures to their maximum permissible, via more fuel resulting in a cooler exhaust gas temperature. So, if fuelling is taken out (going from 0.79 lambda to 0.89), performance will increase by approx. 5BHP per 0.05 Lambda. So, by taking 0.1 lambda out to return 0.89 will result in an increase of circa 10BHP. But, if fuel is taken out, this will over-temp the catalysts (from the hotter exhaust gas temperature due to the leaner mixture), with disastrous consequences (broken cat, burnt-out exhaust valve seats - expensive repair bill). However, the common approach by most aftermarket tuning companies is to 'hose-in' more fuel, under the misconception this act will return more power. Trying to get some people to understand the inverse can often be quite difficult...!
So, what other options are there to increase driveability from an ECU re-map?
Increased engine speed perhaps? I recall a commonly spoken about ECU re-flash on this forum, which increased engine speed limit up to 7500 rpm. Will this return more power? No, because one of the biggest contributing factors to engine performance is the length / volume of the inlet runner within the inlet manifold. The AMV8 achieves peak power at 7300 rpm, above that speed power drops off dramatically. So, if speed is increased and the runner length is not shortened, there will be no power increase. However, due to the engine revs being higher at point of gearshift into the next gear from redline, torque output will be higher. This means that when the next gear is selected the driver will feel increased torque and 'perceive' a small performance increase. In reality what is this worth? Very, very little, unless you hit the redline in each and every gear change.
Last thing on the list then; throttle progression mapping.
What this basically means is the rate of increase and percentage the pedal is depressed by the driver returns a pre-programmed torque output figure. More torque delivered from the engine for less pedal input from the driver, gives the driver the 'perception' that the car has sportier driveability feel. In reality do you get more performance? No, as the engine produces the same torque as it always did, it's just the driver is fooled into thinking performance is greater due to less pedal input giving faster acceleration. An analogy to explain this is where rally drivers fit quick rack steering system, less turns to go from lock-to-lock. This is needed because its time consuming and physically difficult to go from lock-to-lock. In reality, is it that difficult to depress the pedal to give the required torque the driver wants? Not in my opinion. Experimentation with aggressive pedal demand maps on all Aston Martin cars returns more thrilling driveability. But in reality, try parking the car or move backwards and forwards slowly in confined spaces - a disaster..! My advice is stick with the pedal maps set by the manufacturer, as what is programmed by them has been researched and tested in all circumstances - but each to their own I guess.
long story short, will an ECU Re-map return significant improvements? No, and those aftermarket tuning companies who advertise significant gains are trading the emperors clothes.
Anybody thinking about an ECU Re-map should question the vendor hard, get them to explain the detail behind the pretty 3d mapping graphs they display (if they can that is). Another tip, ask for your ECU to remain in the car and after a series of baseline tests plug the modified ECU in and back-to-back drive / feel what you are being sold. If they offer excuses why this cant be done, steer clear
That being said, the only ECU update / kit with any credibility is actually being offered by the factory. This kit comprises of a new airbox which reduces induction system losses and an ECU programmed to advance the spark if 100 Octane fuel is used. The factory took this kit from the N400 and now offers as a retro fit to 4.3L Vantage at the price of 2k. The factory declares 20BHP, this represents approx. 50/50 split from the increased performance coming from each element (airbox/fuel). But, the factory upgrade here, similar to the exhaust system modifications, will only return more performance / better driveability above 5500rpm. And if the driver hasnt filled with 100 octane, the kit will only return 10 of the 20BHP due to the knock control system reducing spark back down to 97 Octane numbers.
The reason why most drivers want more performance from the 4.3L vantage is not necessarily the way the engine performs above 5500rpm, but how torque output gets you there.
At 420Nm the 4.3L engine can hardly be described as lacking torque (when compared with Porsche engine performance figures), but the weight of the Vantage could be identified as route cause for slightly lacklustre acceleration. For this reason the wise performance upgrade should come from a massive torque increase, which as explained here, will not come from an ECU re-map, exhaust system or air induction system. As the adage goes, there is no replacement for displacement! The 4.3L Vantage requires a significant torque increase to return thrilling SuperCar performance."
To answer your question directly, I've never heard of longlife (other than regarding milk!) so can't help you there, I'm afraid.
BravoV8V said:
To answer your question directly, I've never heard of longlife (other than regarding milk!) so can't help you there, I'm afraid.
Due to idle curiosity, I had a quick googoo for longlife. This is what they claim on their website:"By re-mapping the ECU in your Aston Martin, we are able to give you more power and torque. Look below to see what the potential gains are for your vehicle and if you don't see yours listed, call us to see if there is something we're able to offer.
Range...........Model.......HP Original.....HP Tuned.....Torque Original.....Torque Tuned
DB9..........DB9 6.0 V12.......476HP.........501HP............600Nm.............635Nm
Vantage....Vantage 4.2 V8....385HP.........410HP............417Nm.............452Nm"
Which, quite frankly, is bulls
t. If it was that easy to get an extra 25HP/35torques, everybody would be doing it.Here's another place that claim the same sort of figures:
http://www.remappinghorsham.co.uk/aston.html
http://www.remappinghorsham.co.uk/aston.html
snuffy said:
Here's another place that claim the same sort of figures:
http://www.remappinghorsham.co.uk/aston.html
Not sure I'm convinced by their marketing... A vantage 4.2 V8 S has 490bhp as standard? http://www.remappinghorsham.co.uk/aston.html
Remaps are generally only worth considering on turbo cars where they boost the pressure. You might be able to tweak out a flat spot etc but that's generally all.
Jon1967x said:
snuffy said:
Here's another place that claim the same sort of figures:
http://www.remappinghorsham.co.uk/aston.html
Not sure I'm convinced by their marketing... A vantage 4.2 V8 S has 490bhp as standard? http://www.remappinghorsham.co.uk/aston.html
Remaps are generally only worth considering on turbo cars where they boost the pressure. You might be able to tweak out a flat spot etc but that's generally all.
You are right about turbos as well. You are pretty much stuck with it as it is. I had 4 turboed cars before my AM and now I'm back to a pair of turbos again. Everyone of them can be wound up for not much cost, but with the AM that's not an option. I reckon I must just like turboed cars, that's why I never got on with my Vantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDMCNRnVUQ
Could be worth a look. No affiliation or experience just trying to help you with what I've seen.
Could be worth a look. No affiliation or experience just trying to help you with what I've seen.
Pentoman said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDMCNRnVUQ
Could be worth a look. No affiliation or experience just trying to help you with what I've seen.
Judging by the soundtrack to their vid, they are sad fantasists. Could be worth a look. No affiliation or experience just trying to help you with what I've seen.
Judging by their claims (25bhp from an OBD remap), they are lying fantasists.
As always, remapping a forced induction car to run a bit more boost and get 10-15% gain is relatively easy
everyone thinks the same applies to aspirated engines, so its an easy sell to the punters looking for easy, cheap horsepower ...but there is no such thing for reasons described earlier in the thread
some cars do have really restrictive induction and exhaust, and you can get good gains by replacing those...at a price...
everyone thinks the same applies to aspirated engines, so its an easy sell to the punters looking for easy, cheap horsepower ...but there is no such thing for reasons described earlier in the thread
some cars do have really restrictive induction and exhaust, and you can get good gains by replacing those...at a price...
I've been following a thread on ECU tuning on the 6speedonline.com forum in the US for V8V 4.3.
Original thread: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/24...
Updated thread on Eurocharged re-mapping : http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/24...
They've managed to get 30+ HP and 300 more top end revs to the standard non modded V8V 4.3, looks like a number of people have had it re-mapped and are very pleased with the work done.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/33...
It looks like a basically generic re-map for all cars with some minor bespoking and the cost for the remap was around the US$1500 but I don't know if they will be able to send the files over to the UK for us to flush ourselves via the ODB2 port in the car?
Eurocharged do offer remote tuning service via some custom hardware that they send out to you, but this is in the US and Canada.
Original thread: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/24...
Updated thread on Eurocharged re-mapping : http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/24...
They've managed to get 30+ HP and 300 more top end revs to the standard non modded V8V 4.3, looks like a number of people have had it re-mapped and are very pleased with the work done.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/33...
It looks like a basically generic re-map for all cars with some minor bespoking and the cost for the remap was around the US$1500 but I don't know if they will be able to send the files over to the UK for us to flush ourselves via the ODB2 port in the car?
Eurocharged do offer remote tuning service via some custom hardware that they send out to you, but this is in the US and Canada.
Edited by onny on Monday 26th May 22:31
Edited by onny on Monday 26th May 22:33
yeti said:
Aaaaand I've just remembered why I don't go on 6speed.
It's moronic.
Oh the irony considering how moronic the constant banter regarding "ladyboys" and other drivel here on PH. It's moronic.
As much as I like PH, I must admit the signal to noise ratio is way higher on 6speed; not to mention discussions seem to be much less confrontational.
KarlFranz said:
Oh the irony considering how moronic the constant banter regarding "ladyboys" and other drivel here on PH.
Morning KF! Please don't think this an anti-US rant, it isn't by any means 
Banter, drivel and being silly on here is one thing, it's a few (a lot of?) jokes amongst friends; people posting incorrect information, back-slapping / high-fiving each other and then spending their money on more snake oil is... moronic.
Mike and BR are banned from 6speed (due to RSC's sponsorship of the forum) so that board do not have access to the Gaydon powertrain engineers like we have here. That's what BR are, the powertrain engineers. If you think some chap in a shed in Houston can plug in his laptop and simply 'turn the engine up' by 30bhp... c'mon Karl!
I guess people can choose what they want to believe, but manipulating a graph and convincing a punter is all to easy. I was convinced once by a 'remap' - in fact the car made a LOT more noise (new backbox) and the throttle pedal travel was shortened. The effect on me was staggering, I'd have believed any number I was told. It was 4bhp.
Having read into that 6speedonline thread, while at first it seems like a legitimate punter reviewing his remap, it quickly becomes clear he's advertising it. It's just all part of a slightly elaborate advertisement.
Still wonder whether remap could at least have interesting effects on curve and throttle response, if not top end (top end being fairly unimportant in normal driving).
Still wonder whether remap could at least have interesting effects on curve and throttle response, if not top end (top end being fairly unimportant in normal driving).
For what it's worth, I agree with Karl Franz - the US car enthusiast community seem to be more supportive, more open and less aggressive than the UK one (apart from all the children and fanboys which are a severe problem there).
Although having said that, the AM forum here on PH is the exception, being as it is friendly and allowing of differing opinions.
Although having said that, the AM forum here on PH is the exception, being as it is friendly and allowing of differing opinions
.Pentoman said:
Having read into that 6speedonline thread, while at first it seems like a legitimate punter reviewing his remap, it quickly becomes clear he's advertising it. It's just all part of a slightly elaborate advertisement.
Still wonder whether remap could at least have interesting effects on curve and throttle response, if not top end (top end being fairly unimportant in normal driving).
Too much covert advertising on most forums nowadaysStill wonder whether remap could at least have interesting effects on curve and throttle response, if not top end (top end being fairly unimportant in normal driving).
AFAIK the throttle can be mapped independently (hence the sport buttons)
IME NA tuning gives little gains unless associated with other mods like headers etc
Pentoman said:
Still wonder whether remap could at least have interesting effects on curve and throttle response, if not top end (top end being fairly unimportant in normal driving).
The thing you can do of course is have your car mapped to only accept superunleaded - there is a useful gain here, I think it was worked out to be around 10bhp'ish? Of course in rural Wales, you're out of luck when you want to fuel up and you risk the detonation being wrong at high loads with 95RON
Pentoman said:
Although having said that, the AM forum here on PH is the exception, being as it is friendly and allowing of differing opinions .
Nope - you're just totally wrong.. go play elsewhere .PH can be a bit of an acquired taste - try advanced drivers if you really want to see testosterone flying around where everyone wants to convince everyone else they're right.
Its fairly simple, and it links to other recent discussions, the UK market is one where we like things relatively standard with maybe just a few subtle tweaks. But then we also tend to custom order the car and get the spec we want. The US market tends to buy off the lot, and then modify it afterwards and individuality is achieved that way. When we do make changes we hanker after good old fashioned engineering over body kits. Doesn't explain everything as no rule of thumb can. Neither is right or wrong.
After that, the laws of physics say a remap on a NA engine is tweaking at the edges and not going to deliver what the engineering mods would do - but if spending over a $1k on that gives you a warm fizzy feeling, then go for it.
I only object when people want to use a forum as a means of justifying something to themselves and then objecting to the answer when it doesn't.
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