Corners + brakes advise please
Discussion
With the vast wealth of biking experience there is on here I would apreciate your views on back brake front brake...
On my last bike If I went into a corner too hot or unexpected stationary vehicle was around the corner I could use the front brake gently while leant over and the bike would scrub off speed without sitting up or causing me to worry about losing the front end.
The front brakes on that bike were full of air I have since found out, which meant that they didnt have much inititial bite but if sqeesed harder worked fine, well enough to do the odd unintentional endo
.
As that was my first bike I developed my style of riding to that bike.
Now with the new bike which has much more powerful brakes, If I even think about touching the front brake the bike sits up which isnt good
Of course it dosnt help that the corners get there that much quicker now.
I never use the back brake at moment but my mate recons that I should. It is not a natural thing for me to do at the moment should I practice or should I let air in my front brake
Obviously I try not to use the brakes at all in a corner I slow before hand and accererate out but ocasionaly I get it wrong or the corner tightens up unexpectedly.
any advise apreciated.
cheers
>>> Edited by pesty on Monday 28th June 17:37
On my last bike If I went into a corner too hot or unexpected stationary vehicle was around the corner I could use the front brake gently while leant over and the bike would scrub off speed without sitting up or causing me to worry about losing the front end.
The front brakes on that bike were full of air I have since found out, which meant that they didnt have much inititial bite but if sqeesed harder worked fine, well enough to do the odd unintentional endo
. As that was my first bike I developed my style of riding to that bike.
Now with the new bike which has much more powerful brakes, If I even think about touching the front brake the bike sits up which isnt good
Of course it dosnt help that the corners get there that much quicker now.
I never use the back brake at moment but my mate recons that I should. It is not a natural thing for me to do at the moment should I practice or should I let air in my front brake
Obviously I try not to use the brakes at all in a corner I slow before hand and accererate out but ocasionaly I get it wrong or the corner tightens up unexpectedly.
any advise apreciated.
cheers
>>> Edited by pesty on Monday 28th June 17:37
There will I'm sure be lots of advice on this one. With a superbike you never really need to use the rear brake in the dry. That usually amounts to leaving a bit of the black stuff behind if you are braking hard and that back is starting to lift. As for me only ever use rear brake when
a) Riding with Pillion under hard braking to stop the bike from squatting
b) In the wet with roughly 60/40 front rear braking
c) Steep hills if I need to slow down mid corner (usually in the Alps..)
I suggest you try a race school to learn the limits of your bike properly. Most UK schools will teach you never to use the rear on the track, whilst the Nurburgring riders training course I went on many moons ago had us locking up the front and rear independently and recovering the skid before we were allowed to ride the track.. Scarey when you think you will drop the bike..
With any normal road tyres, you will be surprised how deep you can brake into a bend without protest.
>> Edited by philblade on Monday 28th June 18:06
a) Riding with Pillion under hard braking to stop the bike from squatting
b) In the wet with roughly 60/40 front rear braking
c) Steep hills if I need to slow down mid corner (usually in the Alps..)
I suggest you try a race school to learn the limits of your bike properly. Most UK schools will teach you never to use the rear on the track, whilst the Nurburgring riders training course I went on many moons ago had us locking up the front and rear independently and recovering the skid before we were allowed to ride the track.. Scarey when you think you will drop the bike..
With any normal road tyres, you will be surprised how deep you can brake into a bend without protest.
>> Edited by philblade on Monday 28th June 18:06
You always want to use your rear brake in preference to your front whilst leaned over. Otherwise you transfer weight to the front tyre and increase the likelihood of overcoming its grip. At least if you lose the rear there's a chance you can recover.[1]
This is unless you own an Aprilia, in which case the rear brake pedal is just there as an extra footrest - for all the good it does.
Generally, if you could brake and make it round the corner, you'd most probably have achieved it by simply leaning more.
[1] I'm sure some of the more seasoned racers will be along to tell you the value of trailing the brakes into a turn.
This is unless you own an Aprilia, in which case the rear brake pedal is just there as an extra footrest - for all the good it does.
Generally, if you could brake and make it round the corner, you'd most probably have achieved it by simply leaning more.
[1] I'm sure some of the more seasoned racers will be along to tell you the value of trailing the brakes into a turn.
pesty said:
If I went into a corner too hot or unexpected stationary vehicle was around the corner I could use the front brake <snip>
Obviously I try not to use the brakes at all in a corner I slow before hand and accererate out but ocasionaly I get it wrong or the corner tightens up unexpectedly.
any advise apreciated.
cheers
>>> Edited by pesty on Monday 28th June 17:37
Have you done any advanced training? Not being snotty or anything, but it did the world of good for my observation, planning and general widening of my safety envelope. I can suggest a couple of good advanced training organisations if you're interested. One of them is even with serving police bikers, which makes it a very interesting day indeed.
Suggest away Whoozit. Its another one of those things I keep meaning to do and yet never get around to doing it.
I was also going to find a quiet strecth of road and practice doing emergeny stops to get a feel for the new front brake but didnt do that either although I don't know if that would help with the cornering thing.
This sitting up probelm is a new one to add to all my other bike riding problems which has just arrisen because of the powerful brakes.
I was also going to find a quiet strecth of road and practice doing emergeny stops to get a feel for the new front brake but didnt do that either
although I don't know if that would help with the cornering thing. This sitting up probelm is a new one to add to all my other bike riding problems
which has just arrisen because of the powerful brakes.Braking whilst cornering needs to be avoided unless in an emergency..... my 10p worth (£18.50 actually) would be to suggest that you read Keith Codes 'Twist of the wrist 1 or 2' (I'm currently reading it).
It explains what happens technically and how to avoid getting into a situation where you need to apply your brakes mid corner (all the things that interfere with your brain to cause you to react)
- agree with the Advanced comments - again you'll learn how to prepare for a corner, reading the road, the speed you should enter and your road position so you can progress through and exit with the throttle on as opposed to shutting off out of panic and/or braking.
We're doing the California Superbike school on 2nd August (Level 1) which covers the basics of this stuff - if yer interested there are still some places left.
Anna
X
It explains what happens technically and how to avoid getting into a situation where you need to apply your brakes mid corner (all the things that interfere with your brain to cause you to react)
- agree with the Advanced comments - again you'll learn how to prepare for a corner, reading the road, the speed you should enter and your road position so you can progress through and exit with the throttle on as opposed to shutting off out of panic and/or braking.
We're doing the California Superbike school on 2nd August (Level 1) which covers the basics of this stuff - if yer interested there are still some places left.
Anna
X
Def. get the braking done before you pitch it in (or finish as you're starting to lean), to settle the suspension a light touch of rear may help (unless you're on a Blackbird, verdamnt linked brakes). If you feel you're running wide then OPEN the throttle, under no circumstances shut it or you _will_ run wide.
Remember to maintain the same speed in a corner as on the straight you will need to increase the revs as the rolling radius of the tyre will decrease the further you lean.
Of course, if you ride a tiger like me, then you'll want to completely lock the rear up before the corner , get the back-end swinging round and pitch it in sideways then open the throttle as quickly and as widely as possbile
>> Edited by barry sheene on Monday 28th June 19:39
Remember to maintain the same speed in a corner as on the straight you will need to increase the revs as the rolling radius of the tyre will decrease the further you lean.
Of course, if you ride a tiger like me, then you'll want to completely lock the rear up before the corner , get the back-end swinging round and pitch it in sideways then open the throttle as quickly and as widely as possbile
>> Edited by barry sheene on Monday 28th June 19:39
You haven't had the 'thou long have you?
I know when I first got the mille I'd charge out of one corner then arrive at the next a bit quicker than I was comfortable with, with the odd ooo fook moment thrown in
I found it helped by just slowing things down a bit giving me more time to brake and set the bike up for the corner, then pick the pace back up again as your confidence increases.
I know when I first got the mille I'd charge out of one corner then arrive at the next a bit quicker than I was comfortable with, with the odd ooo fook moment thrown in
I found it helped by just slowing things down a bit giving me more time to brake and set the bike up for the corner, then pick the pace back up again as your confidence increases.
Kittys suggestion about reading Twist of the Wrist is a good one.
Lots of theory in there.
Keith Codes notion is one of having one dollars worth of attention available to you when riding on the bike.
Practising each of the basic components of riding (Braking, throttle control, body position, looking ahead) should get the rider to the point where machine control becomes second nature. This principle means you only need 25 cents of your attention for machine control leaving 75 cents to deal with surroundings/ emergencies when they arise.
It's based upon racing but some of thr principles of learning are basic stuff and apply well to the road.
Lots of theory in there. Keith Codes notion is one of having one dollars worth of attention available to you when riding on the bike.
Practising each of the basic components of riding (Braking, throttle control, body position, looking ahead) should get the rider to the point where machine control becomes second nature. This principle means you only need 25 cents of your attention for machine control leaving 75 cents to deal with surroundings/ emergencies when they arise.
It's based upon racing but some of thr principles of learning are basic stuff and apply well to the road.
The most valuable bit of Keith Code's system is IMO his method for balancing the bike.
He points out that bikes have larger tyres on the back so that wheel has more grip. By using the throttle you can adjust where the weight of the bike goes. By a slight acceleration, weight is transferred to the rear of the bike - onto the larger tyre. Therefore leaving the front with less weight.
I've never done one of his courses - one of those things I must get around to. His books are good, though.
I even bought his video, which has some choice haircuts!!
He points out that bikes have larger tyres on the back so that wheel has more grip. By using the throttle you can adjust where the weight of the bike goes. By a slight acceleration, weight is transferred to the rear of the bike - onto the larger tyre. Therefore leaving the front with less weight.
I've never done one of his courses - one of those things I must get around to. His books are good, though.
I even bought his video, which has some choice haircuts!!
pesty said:
Suggest away Whoozit. Its another one of those things I keep meaning to do and yet never get around to doing it.
The two I've tried are www.rapidtraining.co.uk/e/home.htm (serving and ex police bikers, teaching the System but not in a heavy-handed way. Tends to be focused on intermediate to advanced road riders and is quite fast paced) and
www.survivalskills.co.uk/ (a one man band but VERY good at breaking down your riding into sections and focusing on key skills. Virtually all the training takes place at 60mph or below to practise the skills, rather than focusing on making progress.)
For a taster, why not try doing a Bikesafe day with your local police force? It's a nominal charge (£25 or so) for which you get two observed rides, breakfast, lunch, and honestly interesting road safety lectures (note: NOT "speed kills" focused).
I did a course with RideDrive's motorcycle wing. They are one of the advertisers on this site.
www.advanced-motorcycle-training.co.uk/OxOCNCourse.htm
The course is a recognised qualification (an NVQ) and has saved me more than the course cost me in one insurance renewal.
www.advanced-motorcycle-training.co.uk/OxOCNCourse.htm
The course is a recognised qualification (an NVQ) and has saved me more than the course cost me in one insurance renewal.
DO NOT LET ANY AIR INTO YOUR FRONT BRAKE!
If you're going too fast, just lean it a bit more and gently roll on the throttle - you'll get round. Applying thr f/brake mid corner will always make the thing stand up. Not a good idea. Calif s/bike school is good, but is initially very frustrating as they force you to isolate one thing at a time (which in hindsight is a good idea!)
If you're going too fast, just lean it a bit more and gently roll on the throttle - you'll get round. Applying thr f/brake mid corner will always make the thing stand up. Not a good idea. Calif s/bike school is good, but is initially very frustrating as they force you to isolate one thing at a time (which in hindsight is a good idea!)
Assuming that you've gone into a blind corner at a reasonable speed and at mid-corner you spot that on the exit there's a queue of traffic stopped or something...I would carefully go for the front brake. The bike would stand up a little and hopefully I would be able to either scrub off enough speed to go around the obstacle or of course, stop.
If we're talking about slowing gentyly, i.e. not to avoid an obstacle... Generally, most good sportsbikes, can just be leant over further which will of course make the turn.
Kitty: I can't believe you've only just begun reading TOTW2!!! Still, bloody good choice though.
B
If we're talking about slowing gentyly, i.e. not to avoid an obstacle... Generally, most good sportsbikes, can just be leant over further which will of course make the turn.
Kitty: I can't believe you've only just begun reading TOTW2!!! Still, bloody good choice though.
B
Yeah thats the sort of thing benny emergency etc. I will be doing some training and I will do another track day which worked wonders before.
I think that no matter how well I judge the corner and no matter how much training I have Every now and again I will get it wrong even if its once every 200k miles or whatever.
Went up through derbyshire and along the A57 snake pass on Sunday and had a really good ride. Only had a couple of iffy moments and like you all said I just lent the bike over more and was ok.
I love counter steering
I think a big part is also its a new bike and will take a while to get used to it especialy the brakes.
just looked at the california superbike school expensive but I suppose if it stops me ploughing intoan artic its a good thing
I think that no matter how well I judge the corner and no matter how much training I have Every now and again I will get it wrong even if its once every 200k miles or whatever.
Went up through derbyshire and along the A57 snake pass on Sunday and had a really good ride. Only had a couple of iffy moments and like you all said I just lent the bike over more and was ok.
I love counter steering
I think a big part is also its a new bike and will take a while to get used to it especialy the brakes.
just looked at the california superbike school expensive but I suppose if it stops me ploughing intoan artic its a good thing
If I even think about touching the front brake the bike sits up which isnt good
==============
I had this until I reset the suspension, you should be able to brake into a bend without it sitting up, the more you lean the less brake you give it.. until your "knee down" then you don't want to be braking.
getting the suspension setup for you might improve the 'sit up' effect.
as above with all the other advise ; you spend thousands £££ on bike, clothes, insurance..
so £500 on training is a drop in the ocean to be able to get the best out of your spending!
==============
I had this until I reset the suspension, you should be able to brake into a bend without it sitting up, the more you lean the less brake you give it.. until your "knee down" then you don't want to be braking.
getting the suspension setup for you might improve the 'sit up' effect.
as above with all the other advise ; you spend thousands £££ on bike, clothes, insurance..
so £500 on training is a drop in the ocean to be able to get the best out of your spending!
bennyboysvuk said:
Kitty: I can't believe you've only just begun reading TOTW2!!! Still, bloody good choice though.
B
I've only just started reading it is because I've been on several advanced courses and race schools where they use the same theory & techniques, I'm reading it in preparation for the California Superbike school in August that I have booked so that I get the best out of it - it doesn't contain any major new revelations for me - more of a refresher.
Here's a link to one of the road based courses I've done - I came very close to packing in biking & this course helped me overcome some bad stuff in my head: [url]www.mikewaite.co.uk/en/index.html[/url]
A
>> Edited by S2rr Kitty on Tuesday 29th June 19:25
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