Have the bike limits on new riders helped ?

[redgriff500]

I have been asked to give views on whether I think it is a good idea to limit new / young drivers in a similar way that bikers are which I do think is a good idea.

BUT I don't want to give a half arsed view... so please give your helpful comments...

1) IIRC under 21's and those taking the test on a low powered bike are limited to a 33bhp machine - is that right ? Has it worked in reducing accidents ?

2) I'd think that limiting new drivers to below 75 bhp ? for 2 years ? would be reasonable.

Any other sensible suggestions ?

Note I'm NOT anti performance in the least but my brother was killed by a 19 yr old who'd been driving a 1.1 metro for 4 months, then got an Impreza and within 3 days had the fatal accident - no surprise there !

I'm not looking for sympathy just some good ideas... BEFORE 11.30am

[oily]

I think personally, not having a stereo for my first couple of years driving really helped me to not have any accidents. My brother's stereo is that loud it makes your ears hurt, 1st accident after 6 months, 2nd 3 weeks later.
Neither accident was his fault (1st one turned right in front of him coming from opposite direction, 2nd overtaking while he was turning right), but I think if his concentration had been more on what the other drivers were doing and not how many people could hear him coming, he might have escaped with a couple of near misses and not now have a scarred face.

[Rawwr]

I don't think you can do an honest comparison with regards to a honeymoon period. The feeling of vulnerability on a bike is a massive factor for new riders, compared to the relative feeling of invicibility for new drivers.

At least in my experience.

[aeropilot]

oily said:

I think personally, not having a stereo for my first couple of years driving really helped me to not have any accidents. My brother's stereo is that loud it makes your ears hurt, 1st accident after 6 months, 2nd 3 weeks later.

From my own experience, even 25+ years ago, I can quote similar stats.

Nnot wholly relevant to bike riding of course, but anything that potentially disrupts concentration levels whilst still in the post-pass experience gaining phase is a danger.

With bikes, it's just the young age related banzai brain that causes this.

Edited by aeropilot on Tuesday 27th February 11:41

[timmartin]

Rawwr said:

I don't think you can do an honest comparison with regards to a honeymoon period. The feeling of vulnerability on a bike is a massive factor for new riders, compared to the relative feeling of invicibility for new drivers.

At least in my experience.

What he said.

[black-k1]

The other thing to bear in mind is that the combination of the power limits/increased complexity of the bike test along with the move of motorcycling from cheap transport to expensive hobby have pushed up the average age of those taking their test. This means that there are far less ‘youngsters’ stating out on bikes with no road experience and those that are tend to be ‘more enthusiastic’ thus more willing to take on safety practices and try to ‘do the job properly’. There has been a reduction in accidents involving younger riders since the implementation of power restrictions but to say it’s a result of the power restrictions would be a gross over simplification.

[chilli]

Personally, I think it's madness to let an idiot (like myself) pass a test, ad go and buy anything he wants. I quite like the suggestion of a 75bhp limit for a year or so, just to let people get used to it. Also, vulnerability was mentioned earlier, but "young lads" just passing their test I suspect are invincible and know everythnig there is to know....or am I doing them an injustice?!

[PhillVR6]

chilli said:

Personally, I think it's madness to let an idiot (like myself) pass a test, ad go and buy anything he wants.

I agree, but I went put and bought a 100bhp bike after passing my test and somehow managed not to crash it.

chilli said:

I quite like the suggestion of a 75bhp limit for a year or so, just to let people get used to it.

Now I don't agree with this, it would be yet another expansion of this nanny state we live in. As adults we should be able to make our own choices and if we kill ourselves as a result then so be it. I object to having rules put in place to protect myself from myself.

Phill

[hiccy]

I cna understand limitations on younger riders who have less experience and may benefit from having things sloooowed down a bit for them. However (touch wood) age & experience do at least give the benefit that I have had far, far fewer "eek!" moments on my 100hp beasty ridden many miles since passing my test than I did on the 11hp 125 I had 15 years ago.

[Steve_T]

chilli said:

Personally, I think it's madness to let an idiot (like myself) pass a test, ad go and buy anything he wants. I quite like the suggestion of a 75bhp limit for a year or so, just to let people get used to it. Also, vulnerability was mentioned earlier, but "young lads" just passing their test I suspect are invincible and know everythnig there is to know....or am I doing them an injustice?!

My SV is < 70bhp and it is plenty quick enough to get you in trouble, although not quick in bike terms per say. I honestly don't think limits will help much. It's probably not wise for a DAS candidate to jump on a 1 litre wheelie monster straight after passing, but it's also not impossible to do so and stay safe either. Safety is down to a bit of self restraint and attitude and not down to cc limits or power limits. Some people are safe, some are not, some are naturally talented and some are not. You can't legislate around this, you can only educate as much as possible. Things like Bike Safe are the right way to go.

Steve.

[black-k1]

Steve_T said:

chilli said:

Personally, I think it's madness to let an idiot (like myself) pass a test, ad go and buy anything he wants. I quite like the suggestion of a 75bhp limit for a year or so, just to let people get used to it. Also, vulnerability was mentioned earlier, but "young lads" just passing their test I suspect are invincible and know everythnig there is to know....or am I doing them an injustice?!

My SV is < 70bhp and it is plenty quick enough to get you in trouble, although not quick in bike terms per say. I honestly don't think limits will help much. It's probably not wise for a DAS candidate to jump on a 1 litre wheelie monster straight after passing, but it's also not impossible to do so and stay safe either. Safety is down to a bit of self restraint and attitude and not down to cc limits or power limits. Some people are safe, some are not, some are naturally talented and some are not. You can't legislate around this, you can only educate as much as possible. Things like Bike Safe are the right way to go.

Steve.

If power was an indicator of accident risk then there would be no accidents involving low powered bikes with accident rates increasing proportionately with power output! If you look at the statistics there is little correlation between power outputs and accident rates per mile travelled.

I still struggle to understand how 70bhp is considered ‘safe’ yet 140bhp is dangerous! In ALL cases it’s up to the rider to decide how much power is required for any given situation.

What new riders don’t have are road skills and machine handling skills. These are the same regardless of the power of the bike you ride so effort should be put into getting those skills as quickly and safely as possible.

[Steve_T]

black-k1 said:

Steve_T said:

chilli said:

Personally, I think it's madness to let an idiot (like myself) pass a test, ad go and buy anything he wants. I quite like the suggestion of a 75bhp limit for a year or so, just to let people get used to it. Also, vulnerability was mentioned earlier, but "young lads" just passing their test I suspect are invincible and know everythnig there is to know....or am I doing them an injustice?!

My SV is < 70bhp and it is plenty quick enough to get you in trouble, although not quick in bike terms per say. I honestly don't think limits will help much. It's probably not wise for a DAS candidate to jump on a 1 litre wheelie monster straight after passing, but it's also not impossible to do so and stay safe either. Safety is down to a bit of self restraint and attitude and not down to cc limits or power limits. Some people are safe, some are not, some are naturally talented and some are not. You can't legislate around this, you can only educate as much as possible. Things like Bike Safe are the right way to go.

Steve.

If power was an indicator of accident risk then there would be no accidents involving low powered bikes with accident rates increasing proportionately with power output! If you look at the statistics there is little correlation between power outputs and accident rates per mile travelled.

I still struggle to understand how 70bhp is considered ‘safe’ yet 140bhp is dangerous! In ALL cases it’s up to the rider to decide how much power is required for any given situation.

What new riders don’t have are road skills and machine handling skills. These are the same regardless of the power of the bike you ride so effort should be put into getting those skills as quickly and safely as possible.

Totally agree.

Edited by Steve_T on Wednesday 28th February 10:00

[chilli]

[quote=black-k1
I still struggle to understand how 70bhp is considered ‘safe’ yet 140bhp is dangerous! In ALL cases it’s up to the rider to decide how much power is required for any given situation.

What new riders don’t have are road skills and machine handling skills. These are the same regardless of the power of the bike you ride so effort should be put into getting those skills as quickly and safely as possible.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that 70 is safe, yet 140 is dangerous. I agree with your point that it is all up to the rider, but machine handling skills and raod observations (etc) need to be exagerated on a more powerful machine. The acceleration is faster, less effort is required to get a newbie into trouble on a more powerful bike.... open the throttle on a litre bike and your're at the end of the road/roundabout before having time to think what you have to do next!

Did someone mention that there is no correlation between stats on higher power bikes to lower ones? Maybe not, but if I had a 21 year old son, I'd prefer him messing around on a less powerful machine..... the risks of an accident are that much higher, as insurance premiums reflect.

Cheers.

[black-k1]

chilli said:

I wouldn't say that 70 is safe, yet 140 is dangerous. I agree with your point that it is all up to the rider, but machine handling skills and road observations (etc) need to be exaggerated on a more powerful machine.

The acceleration is faster, less effort is required to get a newbie into trouble on a more powerful bike.... open the throttle on a litre bike and your're at the end of the road/roundabout before having time to think what you have to do next!

I don’t agree. The acceleration is only there if you use it and acceleration is about power to weight ratio not maximum power. (I know this having been taken out by an Aprillia 250 while on my BMW!) I would argue that with a lower powered bike your already having to ‘ride it harder’ in order to get acceptable performance out of the engine and that this ‘attitude’ can then be transferred to the whole riding style pushing the rider closer to the edge of the envelope. More power can mean more relaxed performance allowing the rider greater time to concentrate on road skills for the same level of speed.

chilli said:

Did someone mention that there is no correlation between stats on higher power bikes to lower ones? Maybe not, but if I had a 21 year old son, I'd prefer him messing around on a less powerful machine..... the risks of an accident are that much higher, as insurance premiums reflect.

Cheers.

In just 15 years time I will have a 21 year old son and I do want him to get adequate road and machine handling skills regardless of the bike he rides. If he wants a 1000cc sports bike (if they’ve not been banned by the ‘knit your own lentils’ brigade) then I’ll back him 100%. He will however have to undertake loads of RoadCraft type training but that would be true for any bike he owned.

Insurance tends to be more around capacity than power as you will find bikes like the BMW flat twins more expensive to insure than most sports 600s yet the 600 puts out more power! Most insurance companies don’t really understand bikes and generally come up with ‘arbitrary’ ways of grouping both bikes and riders.

[tankslappa]

Surprised nobody has mentioned it but it's only going to get worse with regard to licensing restrictions.

The 3rd EU licensing directive was passed just before Christmas, should be in effect by 2012. Do a search for it, there's lots of info, here's a snippet www.bmf.co.uk/briefing/briefing3rdeudrivinglicencedirective.html

Still believe you will be able to do direct access, but the age will be 24 and you can bet the test will be a lot tougher.

[wedg1e]

black-k1 said:

If he wants a 1000cc sports bike (if they’ve not been banned by the ‘knit your own lentils’ brigade) then I’ll back him 100%. He will however have to undertake loads of RoadCraft type training but that would be true for any bike he owned.

If he's 21, how do you propose to enforce this?

[black-k1]

wedg1e said:

black-k1 said:

If he wants a 1000cc sports bike (if they’ve not been banned by the ‘knit your own lentils’ brigade) then I’ll back him 100%. He will however have to undertake loads of RoadCraft type training but that would be true for any bike he owned.

If he's 21, how do you propose to enforce this?

I know I can't stop him, but I don't have to support him. The 'bank of Mum & Dad' does have some influence!

[johnnystorm]

I'm not convinced power restrictions will have much of a calming effect with cars. If I think back to being 17 and all the scrapes my friends and I got into with nothing more potent than diesel/1.1 fiestas/Mini 1000/Metro 1.1, etc none of which, in our wildest dreams would have reached the heady heights of 75bhp. I'm sure most yoof accidents are the result of poor awareness/anticipation/technique rather than excessive power.

[Wedg1e]

johnnystorm said:

I'm not convinced power restrictions will have much of a calming effect with cars. If I think back to being 17 and all the scrapes my friends and I got into with nothing more potent than diesel/1.1 fiestas/Mini 1000/Metro 1.1, etc none of which, in our wildest dreams would have reached the heady heights of 75bhp. I'm sure most yoof accidents are the result of poor awareness/anticipation/technique rather than excessive power.

Agreed... confession time here

Simca van reversed into a bollard: poor observation (I blamed high tailgate!) (Age 17)

Simca van reversed into an Alfasud: possibly the best thing that could happen to an Alfasud. Ironically the only other car in the (unlit) carpark, and I hit it. (17)

Spitfire into the back of a Mini: Mini driver was a woman from work who thought she'd 'teach me a lesson' about driving too close in traffic and slammed her brakes on. Shame I was looking in the mirror at the time otherwise I could have stopped. (18)

Spitfire into a field: lost the arse-end on a muddy lane, only about 30mph but when it went I over-corrected. (18)

Ascona into side of Escort: relied on the car next to me at a roundabout - when he went, I went. He braked when the Escort hit the roundabout at about 70. I didn't see her until she exited stage left, backwards, with the Ascona's front bumper. Both cars written-off. (26)

Lada 1200 taxi into Metro van: she pulled out on me at a roundabout when I was halfway across it. Both cars written-off. (26)

Transit minibus into a wall: I got the angle of attack to the taxi firm's carpark wrong and clouted the side of the building. (25)

Transit security van into a Portakabin: previous driver left it in reverse and I didn't check when I started it. (21)

Transit Connect into a field: dark, didn't know the area, poor roadmarkings, no chevrons on 90 degree bend, distracted by mobile phone. (40)

TVR 390SE into a garage forecourt bin: rear window obscured, relied on postage stamp external mirror. (41)

Vauxhall Carlton limousine: scraped it along a 12" high fence during a funeral. £4K damage to car. I was watching the Director in the mirror as he guided me back in to car park. Didn't see the fence at all. (28)

None involved excess speed, too much power... or a bike

[chilli]

I appreciate what you guys are saying, and it does make sense to me... However, something just doesn't seem right to me (as stated before) that anyone can pass their test, or rather is taught to pass a test, then jump onto an R1 or a blade.
Ok, so rather than putting a restriction on the power for example, would people generally support further training as a requirement, or is it a case of letting people make their mistakes and unfortunately pay the consequences?

Cheers.