Protective Clothing - Part 2
Discussion
Hi Guys,
After the last thread on this, i had decided on a 2 piece leather suit to keep my intact in the event of a spill. I'd also decided on a noticeably coloured lid, probably around the £100 mark, and a Knox solid back protector.
On Saturday, i visited a couple of local bike shops to see what they had to offer. Both advised against leather kit and said id be better off with synthetic stuff which is also cheaper. The reasons they mentioned included:
a)theyre warmer in winter, cooler in summer
b)cheaper
c)leather suits are designed for sliding - which doesnt happen on the road as you always hit something which slows you down!
d)theyre lighter
Now, i tried a few of each on and whilst the leather stuff was far heavier and more cumbersome, the armour felt bigger, stiffer and basically far more reassuring. I tried on RST leather jackets, and Buffalo sythetic stuff - which apparently contains Knox CE approved armour.
Any advice guys, as im totally confused!
I also tried on a few lids. Ive seen a few AGV lids i like, amongst others, but one shop i went in said that they use the rule "if your heads worth 50quid, put it in a 50quid helmet" and strongly advised me to invest in either a SHOEI or Arai lid. I tried on a few Arai's and have to admit they were far lighter and more comfy than the cheapies. He advised i get a lid for between £180 and £220. He wasnt just trying to make a fast buck i dont think, as it was the same chap who steered me away from expensive leathers and towards the Buffalo synthetic gear. Saying that, i didnt see an awful lot of leather kit for sale there!
So, any advice guys n gals?
Cheers
Dave
After the last thread on this, i had decided on a 2 piece leather suit to keep my intact in the event of a spill. I'd also decided on a noticeably coloured lid, probably around the £100 mark, and a Knox solid back protector.
On Saturday, i visited a couple of local bike shops to see what they had to offer. Both advised against leather kit and said id be better off with synthetic stuff which is also cheaper. The reasons they mentioned included:
a)theyre warmer in winter, cooler in summer
b)cheaper
c)leather suits are designed for sliding - which doesnt happen on the road as you always hit something which slows you down!
d)theyre lighter
Now, i tried a few of each on and whilst the leather stuff was far heavier and more cumbersome, the armour felt bigger, stiffer and basically far more reassuring. I tried on RST leather jackets, and Buffalo sythetic stuff - which apparently contains Knox CE approved armour.
Any advice guys, as im totally confused!
I also tried on a few lids. Ive seen a few AGV lids i like, amongst others, but one shop i went in said that they use the rule "if your heads worth 50quid, put it in a 50quid helmet" and strongly advised me to invest in either a SHOEI or Arai lid. I tried on a few Arai's and have to admit they were far lighter and more comfy than the cheapies. He advised i get a lid for between £180 and £220. He wasnt just trying to make a fast buck i dont think, as it was the same chap who steered me away from expensive leathers and towards the Buffalo synthetic gear. Saying that, i didnt see an awful lot of leather kit for sale there!
So, any advice guys n gals?
Cheers
Dave
Dave
For my money the guy is wrong on the leather - it is the best for abrasion/keeping armour in place/long life and, if you buy the right stuff will be well ventilated enough to keep you as cool as you can get on a bike and allow you to zip in insulation for the winter.
On the helmet, he is absolutely right - buy the very best that you can afford and focus on how well it fits, not its brand name/colour scheme/visor action
For my money the guy is wrong on the leather - it is the best for abrasion/keeping armour in place/long life and, if you buy the right stuff will be well ventilated enough to keep you as cool as you can get on a bike and allow you to zip in insulation for the winter.
On the helmet, he is absolutely right - buy the very best that you can afford and focus on how well it fits, not its brand name/colour scheme/visor action
agree on the lid. If you have a comfy, well ventilated helmet, you are more likely to be able to concentrate and relax on the bike. Some peoples heads just do not fit the major brands. As long as the sticker is ACU gold approved (make sure you get the new sticker on the back - it has TWO thin burgundy lines, instead of the old single line - you won't be allowed to race (if that's your thing) with the old lid). Also, you can tell an old lid by the blue BSI sticker. New lids use an EC number (can't remember which one off the top of my head).
Check inside the helmet for a 'manufactured date'. This is sometimes embossed on the helmet straps.
Make sure the thing fits OK most importantly. As long as it's got the relevant stickers it should be up to the required standard. From there onwards, you are paying for fit, ventilation features & image/graphics.
PS you only have one brain though - unless you're Steve Martin in that film where he had a brain in a jar on a desk....
PPS Leather will do just that - slide. Several types of synthetics, grip, then flip you. Flailing limbs tend to smash.
PPPS Watch out for street furniture. It's this stuff which is most likely to hurt you, rather than hitting the deck!
As has been said before. Spend as much as you can sensibly afford. Up to a point, you get what you pay for.
Check inside the helmet for a 'manufactured date'. This is sometimes embossed on the helmet straps.
Make sure the thing fits OK most importantly. As long as it's got the relevant stickers it should be up to the required standard. From there onwards, you are paying for fit, ventilation features & image/graphics.
PS you only have one brain though - unless you're Steve Martin in that film where he had a brain in a jar on a desk....
PPS Leather will do just that - slide. Several types of synthetics, grip, then flip you. Flailing limbs tend to smash.
PPPS Watch out for street furniture. It's this stuff which is most likely to hurt you, rather than hitting the deck!
As has been said before. Spend as much as you can sensibly afford. Up to a point, you get what you pay for.
Man made fibres are a good compromise between weather protection and body protection, but ultimately leather is still the best formof defence against injury, and whilst leathers will not prevent you being hurt, they can certainly reduce the severity..
Perhaps I can quote you from a report I prepared about a year ago which was for Government use.
"Leathers are still regarded as the best form of protection against injury when riding a motorcycle, they are made from a natural material which is breathable abrasion resistant and supple.
Leather motorcycle suits, jackets trousers and gloves can be made from 4 different animals,Cow, which is the most common, Goatskin, Buffalo or Kangaroo!
Cow hide is the most common skin and is quite heavy duty which allows it to wear well. It is recommended however that cow hide should be at least 1.4mm thick as a minimum which means that in the summer when fitted with padding and armour it can get very hot. The thickness of the skin is imaterial, quality is far more important, and a 1.1mm quality skin will offer far more abrasion resistance than 1.5mm of a poor quality hide.
As an alternative, Goatskin which is considerably lighter is actually stronger than cowhide due to the fibres being more closely knit than cow skin. The downside is that due to its suppleness, Goatskin stretches a lot quicker than cowhide so it may require specialist tailoring on a regular basis. Buffalo is often used on cheaper garments which can be felt in its overall quality, but it is tough and will last well although it may take some time to bed in.
Kangaroo is probably least known of the hides used. These hides are supple, strong and very light, but the skin has been found to react to sweat, so a rider who perspires a lot may find that after a time the stitching starts to come apart around crutch joints and under the arms.
Leather being a natural material is very supple and, like a pair of shoes will bed in over a period of time. When fitted for a new set oif leathers, it is important that the wearer understands what leather is designed to do in the event of an accident.
Leather is abrasion resistant and its main function is allow the rider to slide, thereby reducing the friction. From new leathers should fit as tight as possible to allow for stretching and moulding to the wearers shape. If thge leather fits badly, then there is the possibility that as the rider slides down the road, friction will increase causing the leather to snag, this in tuen could cause a flailing limb to snag and whilst the torso is still travelling at speed, the flailing limb stops suddenly causing severe injury. If leather fits correctly, it can also slow down any potential blood loss, or at least stem the flow until medical help arrives.
Case Study:
A rider having recently passed his RoSPA test is riding to work one morning. He is wearing a leather jacket and trousers purchased a few weeks previously having not been entirely convinced in the past of the value of leathers.
As he commenced to overtake a slower moving vehicle on a main A class road, he misjudged the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle and collided head on with a closing speed of aboutn 120 MPH. The rider was found lying in a ditch about 200 yards from point of impact suffering multiple fractures to his left leg, his right arm as well as severe internal injury. It was treated as a potential fatal.
He was conveyed to Hospital where his family were advised that if he survived they would have to consider amputation of both his arm and his leg. He was admitted into theatre, and as they commenced cutting off his leather trousers, he lost in excess of three pints of blood in less than 30 seconds. They also found that his leg was more severely injured than they first thought, but due to the close fitting nature of his trousers, it had actually acted as a splint and restricted blood loss giving him vital time to get Hospital treatment. This avoided amputation of both his arm and his leg, an anticipated 12 months in Hospital was reduced to 6 weeks and within 10 weeks he was driving again.
His speedy recovery was attributed by the surgeon to his well fitting leathers. Had this not been the case he would have probably bled to death at the side of the road. Although he now has a permanant disability, he is able to by and large live a normal life, although he will never ride a motorcycle again".
Now this is part of my report which covers every aspect of clothing with a case study on each type. The above report also included the difference between two piece and 1 piece leathers, body armour and the dangers it can cause, as well as boots, gloves and helmets, and is taken from over 15 years research and study I have completed as part of my work.
Man made fibres will not afford the same level of protection as leather, as I say it is a compromise, but it is a worthy alternative. The first priority is to be able to slide, and even on the road the rider needs to be able to slide or at least reduce the friction, so I am afraid your dealer is talking out of his rear passage.
As a By the By, the case study was my Brother in Law. He now lives in Vienna in Austria and has re-married and has got a little boy. He was wearing a pair of straight leg non armoured trousers, had he been wearing armour the chances are he would have lost his leg, the same way I have two clients who are paraplegics because of back protectors.
I hope that this clears up some of your confusion.
Perhaps I can quote you from a report I prepared about a year ago which was for Government use.
"Leathers are still regarded as the best form of protection against injury when riding a motorcycle, they are made from a natural material which is breathable abrasion resistant and supple.
Leather motorcycle suits, jackets trousers and gloves can be made from 4 different animals,Cow, which is the most common, Goatskin, Buffalo or Kangaroo!
Cow hide is the most common skin and is quite heavy duty which allows it to wear well. It is recommended however that cow hide should be at least 1.4mm thick as a minimum which means that in the summer when fitted with padding and armour it can get very hot. The thickness of the skin is imaterial, quality is far more important, and a 1.1mm quality skin will offer far more abrasion resistance than 1.5mm of a poor quality hide.
As an alternative, Goatskin which is considerably lighter is actually stronger than cowhide due to the fibres being more closely knit than cow skin. The downside is that due to its suppleness, Goatskin stretches a lot quicker than cowhide so it may require specialist tailoring on a regular basis. Buffalo is often used on cheaper garments which can be felt in its overall quality, but it is tough and will last well although it may take some time to bed in.
Kangaroo is probably least known of the hides used. These hides are supple, strong and very light, but the skin has been found to react to sweat, so a rider who perspires a lot may find that after a time the stitching starts to come apart around crutch joints and under the arms.
Leather being a natural material is very supple and, like a pair of shoes will bed in over a period of time. When fitted for a new set oif leathers, it is important that the wearer understands what leather is designed to do in the event of an accident.
Leather is abrasion resistant and its main function is allow the rider to slide, thereby reducing the friction. From new leathers should fit as tight as possible to allow for stretching and moulding to the wearers shape. If thge leather fits badly, then there is the possibility that as the rider slides down the road, friction will increase causing the leather to snag, this in tuen could cause a flailing limb to snag and whilst the torso is still travelling at speed, the flailing limb stops suddenly causing severe injury. If leather fits correctly, it can also slow down any potential blood loss, or at least stem the flow until medical help arrives.
Case Study:
A rider having recently passed his RoSPA test is riding to work one morning. He is wearing a leather jacket and trousers purchased a few weeks previously having not been entirely convinced in the past of the value of leathers.
As he commenced to overtake a slower moving vehicle on a main A class road, he misjudged the speed and distance of an approaching vehicle and collided head on with a closing speed of aboutn 120 MPH. The rider was found lying in a ditch about 200 yards from point of impact suffering multiple fractures to his left leg, his right arm as well as severe internal injury. It was treated as a potential fatal.
He was conveyed to Hospital where his family were advised that if he survived they would have to consider amputation of both his arm and his leg. He was admitted into theatre, and as they commenced cutting off his leather trousers, he lost in excess of three pints of blood in less than 30 seconds. They also found that his leg was more severely injured than they first thought, but due to the close fitting nature of his trousers, it had actually acted as a splint and restricted blood loss giving him vital time to get Hospital treatment. This avoided amputation of both his arm and his leg, an anticipated 12 months in Hospital was reduced to 6 weeks and within 10 weeks he was driving again.
His speedy recovery was attributed by the surgeon to his well fitting leathers. Had this not been the case he would have probably bled to death at the side of the road. Although he now has a permanant disability, he is able to by and large live a normal life, although he will never ride a motorcycle again".
Now this is part of my report which covers every aspect of clothing with a case study on each type. The above report also included the difference between two piece and 1 piece leathers, body armour and the dangers it can cause, as well as boots, gloves and helmets, and is taken from over 15 years research and study I have completed as part of my work.
Man made fibres will not afford the same level of protection as leather, as I say it is a compromise, but it is a worthy alternative. The first priority is to be able to slide, and even on the road the rider needs to be able to slide or at least reduce the friction, so I am afraid your dealer is talking out of his rear passage.
As a By the By, the case study was my Brother in Law. He now lives in Vienna in Austria and has re-married and has got a little boy. He was wearing a pair of straight leg non armoured trousers, had he been wearing armour the chances are he would have lost his leg, the same way I have two clients who are paraplegics because of back protectors.
I hope that this clears up some of your confusion.
good post fergus said:
T-C
I think the subject has already been covered, but can you indicate the situations in which your patients (?) were injured whilst wearing/as a result of wearing back protectors?
Thanks
I am not a Doctor so they are not patients, they are clients who we are representing, but none the less.
In some accidents where the rider is wearing a back protector, particularly the hard shell ones, there have been numerous occasions where the protector has ridden up as part of the collision and broken the base of the spine. This is particularly prevelant where the back protector is of the strap on type bearing in mind that they are designed for use on a race track not on the road.
A memory foam type armour for road use will spread the load more evenly and because of its construction it can't break or ride up making injuries more severe.
The trouble is with many riders is that because racers use back protectors, it is considered to be good for road riders, but the situations you meet on the road and the type of accidents that occur on road are so far detached from track crashes, you cannot put blind faith in something just because a racer uses it, however, much does come down to the type of accident you are involved in.
fergus said:
agree on the lid. If you have a comfy, well ventilated helmet, you are more likely to be able to concentrate and relax on the bike. Some peoples heads just do not fit the major brands. As long as the sticker is ACU gold approved (make sure you get the new sticker on the back - it has TWO thin burgundy lines, instead of the old single line - you won't be allowed to race (if that's your thing) with the old lid). Also, you can tell an old lid by the blue BSI sticker. New lids use an EC number (can't remember which one off the top of my head).
EC22/05 which is replacing the BSI 6658-85. The ACU gold approval means nothing as far as road riding is concerned, it is only needed if it is going to be used in racing or on track.
Mad Dave said:
Thanks T-C. You've got me shit scared now!
So would you advise against hard back protectors, or does it vary greatly dependant on the type of crash?
Many thanks for your post though. Very informative.
Dave
Personaly, I would never ever wear a hard back protector. If it is a strap on and it is hard, it can still ride up and dig into the base of your neck causing paraplegia.
I have softer memory foam built into the back of my suit which is highly shock absorbant, comfortable and being in pockets built into the suit, it can't break or move.
But as I say this is personal choice. I have dealt with a number of accidents where even the rider sliding down the road has had severe injuries caused by the hard back protector.
t-c said:
... If it is a strap on and it is hard, it can still ride up and dig into the base of your neck ....
T-C,
Sorry to hijack a serious subject, but I couldn't resist!
Apologies.
Serious again:
I wonder what the manufacturers, e.g. know, dainexe, response to this is. Personally I use a soft protector (as supplied by Crowtree) - but again, this is personal preference...
>> Edited by fergus on Monday 22 March 15:10
Dave,
In the same situation as you having passed my test 2 weeks ago. Completely new to riding and so have had to go out and buy all new gear.
I'm planning to commute on the bike, but also go out for fun at the weekends so in the end have opted for 2 jackets - a textile weatherproof one for commuting and a close fitting leather one for weekends. Both have ce armour in back, shoulders and elbows.
Have also bought boots and gloves for both uses.
Not sure if this is the best way to go but it seemed like a good option for me as I want the versatility and weather protection for low speed commuting and the better protection of leather for NSL:-) fun at weekends.
Keith
In the same situation as you having passed my test 2 weeks ago. Completely new to riding and so have had to go out and buy all new gear.
I'm planning to commute on the bike, but also go out for fun at the weekends so in the end have opted for 2 jackets - a textile weatherproof one for commuting and a close fitting leather one for weekends. Both have ce armour in back, shoulders and elbows.
Have also bought boots and gloves for both uses.
Not sure if this is the best way to go but it seemed like a good option for me as I want the versatility and weather protection for low speed commuting and the better protection of leather for NSL:-) fun at weekends.
Keith
Thanks for all the advice guys.
T-c - how on earth do you summon the balls to get on a bike after all youve seen?! Im not sure i could.
Do you wear a full leather suit with your soft back protector?
Ive seen some nice padded soft Hiprotec back protectors in the Hein Gericke catalogue - any good?
T-c - how on earth do you summon the balls to get on a bike after all youve seen?! Im not sure i could.
Do you wear a full leather suit with your soft back protector?
Ive seen some nice padded soft Hiprotec back protectors in the Hein Gericke catalogue - any good?
keitht1 said:
Dave,
Got the Hiprotec sports protectors in my jacket - very comfortable and I'm assured they do the business protection wise. Much prefer them to the Knox type solid protectors.
I'm still wandering around on my 2 legs rather than wheeling myself around in a wheel chair thanks to a hiprotec back protector in my Richa 2 piece jacket
fergus said:
Hiprotec seems to get good reviews whenever it's objectively tested!
Hiprotec is good stuff.
Mad Dave, after 20 years of picking up dead and badly injured motorcyclists, having spent 6 months in a coma and left crippled in one leg for life after my big accident on a Police bike, and I now spend my working day investigating accidents from a civil claims point of view, you do get used to it.
It is one of the reasons I got involved in the research and visited all the major manufacturers in Japan, USA, Italy and Germany so that i understood better how kit is manufactured, put together and then tested.
I wear two piece leathers which have soft armour in the back, elbows, shoulders and thighs, and it works very well.
First time I saw Hiprotec was in Germany when the prototype was being played with by one of the bigger German motorcycle clothing manufacturers (not HG). They placed a glass bottle under under the armour and then hit it with a sledge hammer, it just killed the hammer. They then did the same with a piece of harder armour, and the glass disintigrated into thousands of pieces.
Mad Dave said:
Thanks TC. Is that the soft, inbuilt Hiprotec armour, or the big strap on soft hiprotec armour?
A very good test - i think ill do that once ive bought my own!
Inbuilt, but soft strap on Hiprotec is fine. Bear in mind that there are different types, just make sure that it is fully flexible and is capable of retaining its shape after an impact or compression. Simply by pressing it with your thumbs should be a good indication.
So Dave, get a leather/synthetic suit/two piece with/without hard/soft armour and a £20-£500 lid ....or wrapyourself in cotton wool and then clingfilm!
It seems to me each accident is different (if only slightly). I've been down the track and road, overall leather has come out best in my own tests! I always go for soft armour ie you can bend it with effort. Crash helmits, as has been said before fit is most important, i swear by Arai a) because they fit b) because i'm still hear after headfirst through a windscreen. Like i said before look for quality in leathers double stiching, strong thick leather....... now go and buy some before you never get on a bike again!!!
It seems to me each accident is different (if only slightly). I've been down the track and road, overall leather has come out best in my own tests! I always go for soft armour ie you can bend it with effort. Crash helmits, as has been said before fit is most important, i swear by Arai a) because they fit b) because i'm still hear after headfirst through a windscreen. Like i said before look for quality in leathers double stiching, strong thick leather....... now go and buy some before you never get on a bike again!!!
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