123 Distributor and Ignition Amp

[Harveybw]

Does anybody use the 123 Tune distributor, and if so, can you say whether it uses the standard ignition amp next to the coil?

The wiring diagram supplied suggests it doesn’t, but I’ve done quite a bit of research on here and other places and nowhere does it mention it bins the amp...which in my mind would be a nice bonus if it did do away with it! Apologies if this has been answered before, I have had a good search!

Ta

[Penelope Stopit]

I've visited the 123tune website and checked out what their kit is all about

The diagrams shown are correct, everything is built into the distributor

No you don't want to be connecting up the original amplifier unit

[Harveybw]

Well it does seem that way, I suppose I was just doubting myself.

Just thought I’d check as I haven’t seen anyone mention it and it seems a good bonus in my mind, I’d make more of the fact if I were them.

Thanks
Harvey

[Penelope Stopit]

Harveybw said:

Well it does seem that way, I suppose I was just doubting myself.

Just thought I’d check as I haven’t seen anyone mention it and it seems a good bonus in my mind, I’d make more of the fact if I were them.

Thanks
Harvey

I agree, information is lacking, they don't seem to have bothered to explain things

Many people will be doubting themselves

[Harveybw]

Yeah, seems a bit odd but perhaps they don’t expect them to be fitted to our cars or something?

Really appreciate your quick response, thank you. You gave me the confidence to try it out in anger, I’m impressed with it so far.

[Penelope Stopit]

Harveybw said:

Yeah, seems a bit odd but perhaps they don’t expect them to be fitted to our cars or something?

Really appreciate your quick response, thank you. You gave me the confidence to try it out in anger, I’m impressed with it so far.

I take it that you've now got it up and running.....That was quick

Glad to be of help, have fun, it looks good fun

[blitzracing]

Before you spend your pennies, what are you trying to gain? The 123 is a nice bit of kit, but unless you have a bespoke timing map done on a rolling road ( that is important before any old school talk about listening for pre-ignition as a way of timing, it won't work on the RV8) you won't gain a lot. The stock system is pretty good and already used a coil that is capable of supplying you HT needs within the RPM limit of the RV8.

[blitzracing]

The really important bit about rolling road timing is you have to set the timing points for peak torque, across a whole range of RPM and throttle loads as this occurs significantly before any pre ignition takes place. I've spent many hours with mappable ignition with both knock detectors, and by ear using a knock sensor as a microphone, and you simply can't hear the knock above the engine noise. If you want to make significant ignition timing improvements go and find COGs post on removing the ported vacuum.

[Harveybw]

blitzracing said:

The really important bit about rolling road timing is you have.....

Well, I have already taken the plunge. My original question was whilst I was setting up.

My intention was to replace a knackered old distributor, I didn’t feel the need to go full new ECU, as the car goes very well. I could have saved a few quid by refurbishing the old one but I thought the 123 comes with a few benefits and put my money there.

I totally see the benefits of coil packs, and new systems with fuel and spark, but I’m not there yet, plus it’s a bit beyond my knowledge.

For 1/3 of the price of a new system I feel the money is very well spent. I’ve had a play with the maps (you’ve been a lot help there Blitz!!) and the car feels very lively.

I will finish it on a rolling road, but I’d be surprised if it gets much better such is the difference today.

Edited by Harveybw on Sunday 7th July 19:16

[Harveybw]

I’m also one of those sad “original look” blokes to a small extent, so the 123 helps there.

[stevesprint]

Harveybw said:

Does anybody use the 123 Tune distributor, and if so, can you say whether it uses the standard ignition amp next to the coil?

The wiring diagram supplied suggests it doesn’t, but I’ve done quite a bit of research on here and other places and nowhere does it mention it bins the amp...which in my mind would be a nice bonus if it did do away with it! Apologies if this has been answered before, I have had a good search!

Ta

NO NO NO NO
I'm running a 123 Tune distributor and NOT using the old original ignition amp.

Connect the Red & Black wires direct to the coil as per this 123 Tune diagram.

[ITVRI]

stevesprint said:

I'm running a 123 Tune distributor

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts comparing before and after the installation. Was it smoother and did you notice a performance improvement (assuming you did set it up on a dyno?)
I did think about it myself but didn’t go ahead as opinions were at the time that there would be little gain unless the current distributor was faulty or worn.

[Harveybw]

I’d say the difference is noticeable. My distributor wasn’t the newest, but my car didn’t shunt and put down a 200bhp at the wheels dyno run, with no mods, so seemed in ok nick.

If the car isn’t more powerful now, then it’s smoother more responsive at least. Sticking a timing gun on shows (on my car at least) a very solid timing mark now, no movement at all, so must be better in that way.

I was surprised by how flimsy the clips felt, and the rotor arm and cap seemed a little cheap. If there are issues, I think it will be with these bits.

Edited by Harveybw on Monday 8th July 09:10

[blaze_away]

Do you need a specific coil for the 123 ?

[Harveybw]

blaze_away said:

Do you need a specific coil for the 123 ?

The resistance needs to be correct for it but I’m not sure of the value needed. I have a viper coil which I was convinced was a load of rubbish, it works perfectly I must admit.

I’ve read on here the standard Bosch coil runs it ok also.

[blitzracing]

Basically you need a really low resistance primary coil that draws a high current without too many turns. This allows the magnetic field to rise very rapidly in the very short dwell period you get with 4 sparks per revolution on a V8. The lucas / Bosche system runs out of dwell to an extent as the HT drops quite sharply around 5000 rpm, but not to a point it wont spark reliably. There is so much cr*p talked about peak HT super coils, its all irrelevant, as you never need more than about 15Kv to 20 kv to get good spark, but you need that reliably as the RPM rises, so by high power we mean low primary resistance, not its peak output voltage.

[stevesprint]

ITVRI said:

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts comparing before and after the installation. Was it smoother and did you notice a performance improvement (assuming you did set it up on a dyno?)
I did think about it myself but didn’t go ahead as opinions were at the time that there would be little gain unless the current distributor was faulty or worn.

Sorry, I haven’t set it up on a rolling road, maybe one day. I primarily bought the 123 to help smooth a lairy cam and it certainly helps but interestingly the biggest improvements in smoothness came from increasing the fuelling to 13.5 AFR.
You can get very clever with the ignition curve like sharply advancing the timing below idle rpm which helps pick up the idle should it drop and at the same time you can retard the timing in the shunting area, the aftermarket ECU boys will know far more than me.
The vacuum advance is also fully mappable and can be disabled below a programmable set point which is very helpful and the programmable rpm limiter is super smooth. I also heard the Bluetooth version can be set to not start unless your phone is connected which is great for added security but I'm not 100% sure.

blaze_away said:

Do you need a specific coil for the 123 ?

No, I’m running a standard Bosch coil Part No. 0 221 122 392 with the 123, they should be available from your local goodies store including EuroCar Parts.

You can see the coil current

Harveybw said:

I was surprised by how flimsy the clips felt, and the rotor arm and cap seemed a little cheap. If there are issues, I think it will be with these bits.

I think 123s are excellent quality & reliable and there is nothing wrong with the clips but I’m using my old cap and rotor arm.

There is no substitute for a modern aftermarket ECU but the 123 definitely offers a few advantages over a standard distributor, if required, plus its a quick and easy straight swap.

Edited by stevesprint on Monday 8th July 23:17

[MPO]

I've been using the 123 Tune for a number of years now, have 2 of them and on both of my Griffs...

1. No need for the AMP

2. The clips do seem a little loose but these can be slightly bent to give more tension on the cap. I have found that this is only the case when using the 123 supplied distributor cap or TVR supplied ones. The clip locators seem to be a little lower than the Original Lucas and Intermotor ones...

3. I use a standard Bosch coil on both Griffs without issue. So, no real need to replace your existing Bosch one.

4. I also use original Lucas rotor arms. These are a snug fit compared to the after market ones and quality... When I'm ready to change the rotors I will probably try the latest batch of Distributor Doctor ones...

5. I also soldered the spade connectors onto the 123 wires before fitting.

Before installing the 123 I used a timing gun with my original Lucas Dizzy in place, removed the vacuum and noted the amount of Static/Mechanical degrees at each RPM until all advance was in... I used this info to create my first 123 ignition curve... What was very noticeable was the amount of timing scatter on the original distributor.

Installing the 123 was pretty straight forward once the engine was set at TDC

Post install, I checked the timing was the same using the timing gun. It was and what was absolutely clear was the absence of timing scatter.


Over the last few years I have adjusted the ignition curve to the extent that it has

1, Improved the speed of cranking as the the 123 is set to TDC at cranking RPM

2. Tamed the idle by introducing more ignition advance at idle.

3. Improved part throttle response particularly between 1000 and 2000 RPM and eliminated shunting.


These tweaks I found I could do myself with a certain degree of certainty based on feel and responsiveness...


Subsequently, one of my Griffs has been on a local Dyno where my 123 ignition timing was checked. The 123 allows for real-time temporary changes to be made whilst on the Dyno. Using the 123 supplied interface it is possible to increase or decrease the timing and observe torque changes by overlaying the various Dyno torque curves and then optimise the ignition curve afterwards. I did this while sitting in the passenger seat

I would advise using a Dyno to be absolutely sure your ignition is safe and optimised...

I have to say, that both my Griffs are so much smoother and sharper since installing the 123 Tune from the outset and I believe most of this is due to the reduction in scatter...

One of my Griffs has considerably more mileage than the other and the camshaft drive gear is showing a little wear so I will be changing these as and when I need to remove the timing cover. But for now the 123 works well

Also, I have found that my Griffs have very different characteristics when at idle and low RPM and the early part of the 123 ignition curves are very different. I would assume most of this is down to cam differences.. But they both drive like pussy cats at low RPM now

OP If you would like to discuss my experiences further feel free to PM me

Cheers

Glyn