RE: Jaguar goes Indian?
Discussion
bikemonster said:
Sorry folks, but the British motor industry has been quietly consuming itself since at least the end of WW II, with inadequate product development and playing nearly-catch-up with its competitors.
(No, I am not a Britisher, but I do own 2 British cars, and have the oily driveway to prove it!)
Whilst I'd go along with most of your sentiments here. There were certainly exceptions. Jaguar weren't playing catch up or suffering from too little product development until well into the 60s.(No, I am not a Britisher, but I do own 2 British cars, and have the oily driveway to prove it!)
pddmac said:
Strangely enough, I have high expectations should Tata manage to get hold of Jag.
Tata have more interests in the gloabal Automotive Engineering business than is widely known and are today working as consultants to most of the major OEM players, inc Honda, Ford, GM etc...
Exactly. If they want it they can certainly buy it.Tata have more interests in the gloabal Automotive Engineering business than is widely known and are today working as consultants to most of the major OEM players, inc Honda, Ford, GM etc...
As Aditya said, they obviously wouldn't move production anywhere. Plus,
So for the Daily Mail readers out there, not that you can afford a Jag anyway (apart from maybe one of those Mondeo ones), you don't have to worry about lots of grubby little ethnics touching the car. God, some of you are seriously retarded.
What amuses me is that the people who work in the Indian call centres are better educated that the fools who rant about them and almost certainly have a better command of the Queen's English.
I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
Horse_Apple said:
As Aditya said, they obviously wouldn't move production anywhere. Plus,
So for the Daily Mail readers out there, not that you can afford a Jag anyway (apart from maybe one of those Mondeo ones), you don't have to worry about lots of grubby little ethnics touching the car. God, some of you are seriously retarded.
What amuses me is that the people who work in the Indian call centres are better educated that the fools who rant about them and almost certainly have a better command of the Queen's English.
I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
You seem to have issues with people who are little, or not well off, or not well educated, or suspected of reading the wrong newspaper. I suggest you sit down and have a cup of tea. If you have any facts to back up your prejudices please post them when you recover.So for the Daily Mail readers out there, not that you can afford a Jag anyway (apart from maybe one of those Mondeo ones), you don't have to worry about lots of grubby little ethnics touching the car. God, some of you are seriously retarded.
What amuses me is that the people who work in the Indian call centres are better educated that the fools who rant about them and almost certainly have a better command of the Queen's English.
I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
Horse - apple, you've obviously not called one of those call centres recently, and that's not a racist remark at all, its just plain fact.
And also, what makes you so sure they wouldn't move production. Its the only way they'd make it profitable. Lotus still isn't, Rolls Royce isn't, Bentley isn't. These companies are jewelery brands bought for their engineering expertise or brand values. The only way Jaguar would be valueable to Tata is if they moved production.
And also, what makes you so sure they wouldn't move production. Its the only way they'd make it profitable. Lotus still isn't, Rolls Royce isn't, Bentley isn't. These companies are jewelery brands bought for their engineering expertise or brand values. The only way Jaguar would be valueable to Tata is if they moved production.
Fantic SuperT said:
Horse_Apple said:
As Aditya said, they obviously wouldn't move production anywhere. Plus,
So for the Daily Mail readers out there, not that you can afford a Jag anyway (apart from maybe one of those Mondeo ones), you don't have to worry about lots of grubby little ethnics touching the car. God, some of you are seriously retarded.
What amuses me is that the people who work in the Indian call centres are better educated that the fools who rant about them and almost certainly have a better command of the Queen's English.
I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
You seem to have issues with people who are little, or not well off, or not well educated, or suspected of reading the wrong newspaper. I suggest you sit down and have a cup of tea. If you have any facts to back up your prejudices please post them when you recover.So for the Daily Mail readers out there, not that you can afford a Jag anyway (apart from maybe one of those Mondeo ones), you don't have to worry about lots of grubby little ethnics touching the car. God, some of you are seriously retarded.
What amuses me is that the people who work in the Indian call centres are better educated that the fools who rant about them and almost certainly have a better command of the Queen's English.
I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
I have one single hatred in this life and that is those who are intolerant of others due to ethnic differences. I think these people are pure scum. Yes, their typical stereo-type is sub average income, sub average education, sub average intelligence, but those factors on their own don't have to lead to such backward views.
Threads like this always weem to bring out a handful of these fools. I don't see why for one moment I should tollerate them.
covertjouster said:
Horse - apple, you've obviously not called one of those call centres recently, and that's not a racist remark at all, its just plain fact.
And also, what makes you so sure they wouldn't move production. Its the only way they'd make it profitable. Lotus still isn't, Rolls Royce isn't, Bentley isn't. These companies are jewelery brands bought for their engineering expertise or brand values. The only way Jaguar would be valueable to Tata is if they moved production.
I've a couple of accounts where you have to use Indian call centres and they are equally as useless as the ones in the UK. (The difference is that in India you generally need to have a reasonably high level of education to get such a job, which is not the case here) I try very hard not to conduct business with firms which have generic call centres anyway, although that is close to impossible.And also, what makes you so sure they wouldn't move production. Its the only way they'd make it profitable. Lotus still isn't, Rolls Royce isn't, Bentley isn't. These companies are jewelery brands bought for their engineering expertise or brand values. The only way Jaguar would be valueable to Tata is if they moved production.
As for Jag, I'm not sure I agree. I think that what they need to do is just buy the top end of the business and run with a couple of high-end models copying Aston and LR. My understanding is that Jag have lost the bulk of the money in trying to compete with the main fleet manufacturers with the X and S.
Horse Apple, this time I agree with you, people you differentiate because of ethnic background ARE scum and should not be tolerated.
But what is worse are people who acuse others, who are having a discussion which involves different cultures, as simply beging racist just because they might not agree.
Discussion is healthy. Racism is not. Protesting or trying to stop discussion is worse.
But what is worse are people who acuse others, who are having a discussion which involves different cultures, as simply beging racist just because they might not agree.
Discussion is healthy. Racism is not. Protesting or trying to stop discussion is worse.
Horse_Apple said:
Incorrect.
I have one single hatred in this life and that is those who are intolerant of others due to ethnic differences. I think these people are pure scum. Yes, their typical stereo-type is sub average income, sub average education, sub average intelligence, but those factors on their own don't have to lead to such backward views.
Threads like this always weem to bring out a handful of these fools. I don't see why for one moment I should tollerate them.
So do you tolerate people who are little, poorly educated, can't afford Jaguars, read the Daily Mail, and are intolerant of homosexuals, or disabled people, but are not themselves Caucasian. Are they OK?I have one single hatred in this life and that is those who are intolerant of others due to ethnic differences. I think these people are pure scum. Yes, their typical stereo-type is sub average income, sub average education, sub average intelligence, but those factors on their own don't have to lead to such backward views.
Threads like this always weem to bring out a handful of these fools. I don't see why for one moment I should tollerate them.
Can we get back to Jaguar. Ford saved the brand after 'British' Leyland had made it a laughing stock. They kept loads of jobs in the UK and they have said they hope to sell to someone who will grow the brand. I don't care who they sell to as long as they save the jobs of the British Workers who have transformed their working practices. Let's face it, despite really difficult global conditions (including a really strong Pound which makes 'Made in the UK' even more expensive)we have some of the best car manufacturing plants in the world. Now admittedly these factories are owned by the Germans and the Japenese but they employ British workers and help UK Ltd. So American, Chinese or Indian, who cares. If they are going to invest in the brand and keep Jaguar British built they get my support.
covertjouster said:
Horse Apple, this time I agree with you, people you differentiate because of ethnic background ARE scum and should not be tolerated.
But what is worse are people who acuse others, who are having a discussion which involves different cultures, as simply beging racist just because they might not agree.
Discussion is healthy. Racism is not. Protesting or trying to stop discussion is worse.
Not trying to stop a dsicussion, if that is what is felt. Just want those who enter the debate with deliberate racist remarks to learn that they are so sadly wrong.But what is worse are people who acuse others, who are having a discussion which involves different cultures, as simply beging racist just because they might not agree.
Discussion is healthy. Racism is not. Protesting or trying to stop discussion is worse.
Fantic SuperT said:
Horse_Apple said:
Incorrect.
I have one single hatred in this life and that is those who are intolerant of others due to ethnic differences. I think these people are pure scum. Yes, their typical stereo-type is sub average income, sub average education, sub average intelligence, but those factors on their own don't have to lead to such backward views.
Threads like this always weem to bring out a handful of these fools. I don't see why for one moment I should tollerate them.
So do you tolerate people who are little, poorly educated, can't afford Jaguars, read the Daily Mail, and are intolerant of homosexuals, or disabled people, but are not themselves Caucasian. Are they OK?I have one single hatred in this life and that is those who are intolerant of others due to ethnic differences. I think these people are pure scum. Yes, their typical stereo-type is sub average income, sub average education, sub average intelligence, but those factors on their own don't have to lead to such backward views.
Threads like this always weem to bring out a handful of these fools. I don't see why for one moment I should tollerate them.
Horse_Apple said:
What amuses me is that the people who work in the Indian call centres are better educated that the fools who rant about them and almost certainly have a better command of the Queen's English.
I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
You're on a loser here HA. I mean, even though we raised the Indians from baseless poverty and gave them cricket, railways, the English language and Victorian pornography they've been unable to raise themselves to anywhere near 21st century standards of education or business. Its not Indians who manage 50% of Silicon Valley startups is it, nor, would you be in need a focused, educated and hard working engineer in any one of a number of leading edge technologies, would you ever consider an Indian. The idea would be laughable. I almost hope Tata do buy Jag just to spite some of you pointless little lickspittles and your backward little pea brains.
Besides, my mate in the pub says Tata is actually one of those Mooslem terrorist front companys. He saw a film about it. It was good.
@ btom - India's population is massive. Rural India is well and truly rural - no electricity, no water, etc. Not many people in rural India are educated. Family planning is an alien concept to those guys. As a result, the reproduction rate is very high. Since the parents are not earning well, they can't afford to send their kids to school. Hence, most of the children remain uneducated. Many of these uneducated children leave their villages and head to big cities like Bombay (now Mumbai), Delhi, etc. in search of employment. Most of them don't get any job. They are forced to sleep on the pavements and add to the slum-dwelling population of the city. I believe Bombay has Asia's biggest slum, Dharavi - Prince Charles visited it a couple of years ago. This should explain why we are still underdeveloped, uneducated, etc.
Someone mentioned the high corruption level in India. Here's your answer. Most of the taxes we pay, are supposed to be used as funds to develop rural areas. Sadly, this money goes into the pockets of politicians and others working in Government organisations handling the development projects. Pathetic!
The Tata group of companies is not a terrorist organisation or linked to any terrorist organisation.
Someone mentioned the high corruption level in India. Here's your answer. Most of the taxes we pay, are supposed to be used as funds to develop rural areas. Sadly, this money goes into the pockets of politicians and others working in Government organisations handling the development projects. Pathetic!
The Tata group of companies is not a terrorist organisation or linked to any terrorist organisation.
Edited by Aditya on Friday 20th July 18:25
covertjouster said:
The only reason Indian and Chinese car firms are so successful is because they pay their workers far below what workers are paid in the Western world. This is simple maths. The only way Tata could make Jaguar work is by moving production to India like the Chinese did with Rover.
Not entirely true, Jaguar are keen to point out (PE magazine) that the final production of a car accounts for less than 9% of its cost. Now considering that that includes operating costs of the production equipment (fixed world wide) and energy costs (similar world wide) is is evident that it is perfectly possible to successfully produce cars even in a high cost countries provided that the company is actually run well. Remember the Koreans are famous for their cheap cars that are built in a similar wage economy to the UK.The problem for them is that they have missed out on a whole load of opportunities over the past 10-15 years then been hit more recently with a slump of demand in the US caused partly by the increased value of the pound (they will hedge).
Moving production to India might be possible but only if you follow the best practice of previous car companies who have moved out of the their home markets. Most of them started with first of all exporting knock down kits that were screwed together in the foreign country, or by exporting transplant factories that were direct copies of home market factories where any engineering decision was taken from back home. Only after a reasonable time (15-25years) do the foreign based facilities start becoming centres where design or manufacturing engineering takes place. Of course both these solutions require that you maintain home market production which means ultimately that you need demand for your product. It is certainly possible to successfully grow a car company abroad but moving it abroad is not possible unless you have effectively picked out the company from bankruptcy like the Chinese did with Rover.
In 17 years of business I have dealt with many people,I have always found Indians true to their word,yes always discount discount,but once the deal is struck ,no problem,I deliver,I get paid as agreed.TATA will rise and ,if they buy Jaguar,that to will rise (IMHO) Shame we couldn`t keep it pure Brittish,but hay ho we are still alive!
I like owning and driving the larger Jaguars. I've had about five of them and may buy another, provided it was built in a country with a quality manufacturing culture, but it would have to be second-hand because of the shocking nose-dive in value over the first three years. It's sad to concede, but despite having a good brand there probably isn't room for Jaguar in the volume car manufacturing business in the long term. The world has moved on, customer tastes have changed, and manufacturing things you can drop on your foot is only a small part of our economy now. There doesn't seem to be a dignified way out, but if Tata can revive the business it would be absolutely astonishing.
I love the new XKR, would really love to buy one, but i wouldn't stick my neck out now, whilst the car i might buy in a couple of months would be fine what about the re-sale in 3 years time?
Would the "de-valuation" of Jaguar affect it like TVR?
I've worked in India and trust me, whilst TATA may build cars the City Rover proved they are not upto much, even after Rover "re-worked" them.
If TATA buy Jaguar then sales will fall off a cliff! They need someone with vision to take them forward like Dave Richards will do with AM. Who actually puts up the money is *almost* irrelivant.
Sorry but TATA are just not upto premium brands in my opinion, certainly not to the sales level Jaguar need!
It would be sad day if TATA buys Jaguar!
Would the "de-valuation" of Jaguar affect it like TVR?
I've worked in India and trust me, whilst TATA may build cars the City Rover proved they are not upto much, even after Rover "re-worked" them.
If TATA buy Jaguar then sales will fall off a cliff! They need someone with vision to take them forward like Dave Richards will do with AM. Who actually puts up the money is *almost* irrelivant.
Sorry but TATA are just not upto premium brands in my opinion, certainly not to the sales level Jaguar need!
It would be sad day if TATA buys Jaguar!
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