employee not coming back form holiday.
Discussion
I think it is most likely that he booked the cheapest set of tickets which was the four weeks he asked for and was rejected. This is a simple breach of contract issue, similar to if you asked him for a similar change in his contract, like to reduce his salary by £10,000 a year, he would reject, but you do it anyway!?
I think there are a number of wider issues here:
The first is that if the guy booked the tickets ages ago- which is highly likely as a zero-notice change of return date would have cost him an arm and a leg, he went behind you back from day one despite you specifically saying he couldnt. He them worked for you for the next few months with this knowledge, looking you in the eye whilst he knoew he was going to leave you in the lerch. I hate being pi**ed on and I personally wouldnt stand for it.
Secondly, if the guy has obviously done this with the thought that you will have to accept. This opens up a whole can of worms with the rest of your workforce. If you get the reputation that this kind of practice is acceptable with you then it is only a matter of time until someone else takes advantage of you - and even if they dont they will resent you for giving him special treatment.
In fact, the situation is opening up another employment law issue. What happens when one, two or more people start demanding extra leave too? If you let this guy get away with it the others may have a legal case for contructive dismissal for you not offering them the same!
I think you are blatently being pi**ed on here. Unless you really really need him, I would get rid now as its only a matter of time until the next issue if he treats you like a mug.
I would simply reply by stating the time and date of your conversation where you specifically stated that you were not agreeing to 4 weeks holiday, and it is not acceptable you leave your company in the lerch with no notice. I would simply state that you regard that the indention to wilfully breach your employment contract as his notice of resignation, unless he contacts you back to confirm his decision to return to work as planned.
Leave the ball in his court - but dont stand for it!
If he was a regular PITA then I would warn / fire him. If he is (apart from this) a model employee then what's the point in souring the whole relationship with a final or other written warning.
I'd be more inclined to sit him down on his return, tell him you've really had doubts about how trustworthy he is over this issue any repeat performance would mark him out as someone who is not interested in the company.
I'd be more inclined to sit him down on his return, tell him you've really had doubts about how trustworthy he is over this issue any repeat performance would mark him out as someone who is not interested in the company.
er.
Noger said:
Indeed, instant dismisal is rare - it would have to be theft or the like.
Sacking someone outright is bloody hard. At my previous client they had a guy who went on a work evening out, missed his last train home and failed to turn up for 3 weeks after that. Written warning, nothing more. Has done it a few times since, and they still can't get rid.
Was the not turning up related to his missing his train home?Sacking someone outright is bloody hard. At my previous client they had a guy who went on a work evening out, missed his last train home and failed to turn up for 3 weeks after that. Written warning, nothing more. Has done it a few times since, and they still can't get rid.
Am not sure if I am missing something obvious here. Did he think it was justified for having to pay for a taxi, for example?
1) Do you want to sack him - it seems you do.
2) Clearly he booked his holiday before checking it out with you!
3) It is unlikely that at a tribunal 51% would side with the employee - in my opinion.
4) Is he likely to go to a tribunal? If so, be aware that that even if you win you pay for your legals.
5) If I were you when he returns I'd read him the riot act and give him a final warning.
2) Clearly he booked his holiday before checking it out with you!
3) It is unlikely that at a tribunal 51% would side with the employee - in my opinion.
4) Is he likely to go to a tribunal? If so, be aware that that even if you win you pay for your legals.
5) If I were you when he returns I'd read him the riot act and give him a final warning.
southendpier said:
He wanted a month. Gave me 4 months notice of this.
I stated that I couldn't allow him a month - it's not like there area 4 others to take up his workload.
I have meplyed other people in the interim but it takes time to train etc.
He accepted this. Then basically kicks me in the nuts from several thousand miles away.
As an employer it is very disappoining when things like this happen. You follow the rules, sit the employee down try and see his point of view whilst being fair to the business and other employees, come to what you believe is accepted resolution to a difficult subject - and it means nothing.
In heindsight he gave alot of notice and 4 months would be long enough for you to rearrange workload. Imagine if (Like my Wife) he phoned up one day and said "I've been diagnosed with ME (Chronic Fatigue) and it will be 6 to 9 months before I am back and only then part time and I may have months where you have to be flexible with me" I stated that I couldn't allow him a month - it's not like there area 4 others to take up his workload.
I have meplyed other people in the interim but it takes time to train etc.
He accepted this. Then basically kicks me in the nuts from several thousand miles away.
As an employer it is very disappoining when things like this happen. You follow the rules, sit the employee down try and see his point of view whilst being fair to the business and other employees, come to what you believe is accepted resolution to a difficult subject - and it means nothing.
You'd have zero time to organise something.
A work collegue said to the company I work for "I want to take a year off and I'm giving 6 months notice, you can either hold my job open or take this as 6 times my notice period" The company said "Okay then, lets hope there's a job for you when you come back"
HOWEVER. You definately have the right to give him some sort of written warning or dismiss him. Best Idea would be to suspend him withoput pay until the Disciplinary Interview. That will Stress him beyond belief. The NOT knowing.
Good ideas : Demotion because he can't be trusted, Change his T&C's to remove all perks, give him a new list of objectives, and reduce next years holiday's by 5 days.
Also : In order to make all the other staff hate him : Change everyone's holiday booking system so that anything more than 2 days needs to be 2 weeks in advance and ONLY one member of staff off at any one time. At the same time I'd put in a clause saying if they want more than 2 weeks they need to give only 3 months notice in writting. In addition make illness 10 days either side of a holiday require a doctors note (I've seen this reduce absentism by 90%) Also, put a clause that gives employees who have no days off sick in any 12 month period an extra 2 days holiday in the next 12 months.
It's like you are saying to everyone. This person has acted badly but I'm going to make sure there is no excuse for it in future.
NorthernBoy said:
Noger said:
Indeed, instant dismisal is rare - it would have to be theft or the like.
Sacking someone outright is bloody hard. At my previous client they had a guy who went on a work evening out, missed his last train home and failed to turn up for 3 weeks after that. Written warning, nothing more. Has done it a few times since, and they still can't get rid.
Was the not turning up related to his missing his train home?Sacking someone outright is bloody hard. At my previous client they had a guy who went on a work evening out, missed his last train home and failed to turn up for 3 weeks after that. Written warning, nothing more. Has done it a few times since, and they still can't get rid.
Am not sure if I am missing something obvious here. Did he think it was justified for having to pay for a taxi, for example?
It all depends on how much evidence either way you have. If they turn up with not much of an excuse and try to bluff it, then I tend to agree that things will go the employer's way.
But a sniff of a doctor's note or prior medical condition, and a well prepared employee with a rehearsed sob story ...
Well, interesting points on both sides. Thanks for the contributions chaps and chappesses. How many of you guys actually employ staff?
I got some advice and have responded by clearly stating to the employee that he has the chance to come back on the agreed date.
Should he decide not to then this is unauthorised absence. He will not be paid for this and could be considered gross misconduct.
ie nothing has been decided - his decision will bring about a course of action that could lead to a disciplinary for gross misconduct on his eventual return.
(ie disobeying a direct instruction + bunking off work)
Weird isn't it that someone can just not turn up for work, break your trust, sour relationships with other staff members, potentially damage the company and still expect to walk straight back into a job on return?
He's got balls, i'll say that.
I got some advice and have responded by clearly stating to the employee that he has the chance to come back on the agreed date.
Should he decide not to then this is unauthorised absence. He will not be paid for this and could be considered gross misconduct.
ie nothing has been decided - his decision will bring about a course of action that could lead to a disciplinary for gross misconduct on his eventual return.
(ie disobeying a direct instruction + bunking off work)
Weird isn't it that someone can just not turn up for work, break your trust, sour relationships with other staff members, potentially damage the company and still expect to walk straight back into a job on return?
He's got balls, i'll say that.
All of the advice and opinion you receive will have to be tempered with what has been accepted practice within your business.
For example, our standard terms and conditions state that 2 weeks max may be taken at any given time. This may be extended for exceptional reasons at the company's discretion. It is up to you to maintain records of whay may be a valid reason.
Also, how have others been treated for unauthorised absence?
Potentially this is the sort of thing that an ET would investigate but how much evidence can you actually produce or indeed the employee produce?
For example, our standard terms and conditions state that 2 weeks max may be taken at any given time. This may be extended for exceptional reasons at the company's discretion. It is up to you to maintain records of whay may be a valid reason.
Also, how have others been treated for unauthorised absence?
Potentially this is the sort of thing that an ET would investigate but how much evidence can you actually produce or indeed the employee produce?
Podie said:
Written warning, and give him unpaid leave for the extra week.
I would agree with 3 weeks paid leave and unpaid for a week, but he gave 4 months notice he wanted 4 weeks off on leave for his holiday. I would not have refused this as you had 4 months to train someone else to do elements of his job so to keep everything ticking over until his return. Personally if i had a request such as this refused you would get my resignation and i will work elsewhere for a competitor!
stevieb said:
Podie said:
Written warning, and give him unpaid leave for the extra week.
I would agree with 3 weeks paid leave and unpaid for a week, but he gave 4 months notice he wanted 4 weeks off on leave for his holiday. I would not have refused this as you had 4 months to train someone else to do elements of his job so to keep everything ticking over until his return. Personally if i had a request such as this refused you would get my resignation and i will work elsewhere for a competitor!
Edited by The Walrus on Tuesday 31st July 17:43
I hate to admit this but this is what happened on katie and Pter (the Jordan thing) a few weeks ago. Nanny has a few days off, then calls for a few more to go 'to see her father' then basically sends a message to says she won't be back for a few more days. They sacked her and then found tickets in her room suggesting she had never planned to be back when she had because she was in the Algarve.
If you can show lying I think the gross misconduct is made out?
If you can show lying I think the gross misconduct is made out?
The Walrus said:
stevieb said:
Podie said:
Written warning, and give him unpaid leave for the extra week.
I would agree with 3 weeks paid leave and unpaid for a week, but he gave 4 months notice he wanted 4 weeks off on leave for his holiday. I would not have refused this as you had 4 months to train someone else to do elements of his job so to keep everything ticking over until his return. Personally if i had a request such as this refused you would get my resignation and i will work elsewhere for a competitor!
Edited by The Walrus on Tuesday 31st July 17:43
Perhaps the OP didnt want to spend his time or other employees time and increase their workload to train someone else just to pander to one guys whims!?
Luckily for me, I have learnt my employers lessons reasonably early. I am constantly astonished how an employee can think an employment contract is one sided - like if they dont like something in the contract they signed then down the line it is assumed that allowances can always be made regardless to the cost to the company or other employees... Yet, if the *employer* should need flexibility or demands it to remain in business, then this is met with feelings of complete unfairness, distate and threats of action!
I counter this by making my contracts watertight - not in the sense a £200 an hour lawyer has written them, but they are in plain english what is expected, why, and exactly what the consequence is. For example, should an employee be not in work for illness then they must personally call me before 10am to explain their absence. Failure to do this means they are AWOL and the cost of getting a temp to cover their post at agency rates is deducted from that months pay.
This is not about the OP being reasonable it is about an arrogant **** who is trying to pull a fast one and demand whatever he wants. Should he pander to him and back down now? Should he heck!
Wake up guys - he gave 4 months notice!!
Anyone who has gone abroad will know that a months air fare is a lot cheaper than the 2 or 3 weekers.
I posted this over a week ago !!!
Sack the poor lad when he gets back from his 'once in a lifetime trip' to OZ - because if he resigns he has to fund himself till he finds a new job - sacking him, means at least he'll be able to eat for the next month
Anyone who has gone abroad will know that a months air fare is a lot cheaper than the 2 or 3 weekers.
I posted this over a week ago !!!
Sack the poor lad when he gets back from his 'once in a lifetime trip' to OZ - because if he resigns he has to fund himself till he finds a new job - sacking him, means at least he'll be able to eat for the next month
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