Tenants say they're not going to pay rent, what next?
Discussion
So lucky me appears to have some tenants in a flat I rent out that have emailed me saying they are going to stop rental payments (executive summary of reason: they have a serious issue with the noise a counci tenant neighbour is making but hold me responsible). I've offered them some options of exiting their tenancy before the 6 month break clause: give me 3 weeks notice and pay the balance of my agent's fees, probably amounting to about 2 weeks rent OR the option to find other tenants to take over from them OR a reduced rental amount if they decide to stay on plus any support they need complaining to the council. I'm trying to be flexible but they appear to want to just leave me to carry the can. Seems their idea is to stay living in a place (that ironically they seem to hate) for free until I cave in.
So on the basis that they're likely going to go into arrears in a few days, does anyone have any experience of the best way forward to recover rent and evict them if they do? We have 6 weeks deposit which the contract says we can deduct unpaid rent from, but presumably after that I'd have to take them to the small claims court?
Basically, once they go into arrears I want to recover unpaid rent and get them out asap.
So on the basis that they're likely going to go into arrears in a few days, does anyone have any experience of the best way forward to recover rent and evict them if they do? We have 6 weeks deposit which the contract says we can deduct unpaid rent from, but presumably after that I'd have to take them to the small claims court?
Basically, once they go into arrears I want to recover unpaid rent and get them out asap.
uber said:
If you have an agent should they not be on top of it?
Agent finds tenants, does paper work, collects rent etc, but they don't "manage" the property. They may well be the people to take it forward (but I'm currently working on a worst case scenario that they're not), have pinged them an email to see exactly what services they provide, will also dig out the agreement we have with them when I have a moment tomorrow.Have found this, it seems to lay out what has to be done:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-...
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-...
Moominho said:
Mario149 said:
Agent finds tenants, does paper work, collects rent etc, but they don't "manage" the property. They may well be the people to take it forward (but I'm currently working on a worst case scenario that they're not), have pinged them an email to see exactly what services they provide, will also dig out the agreement we have with them when I have a moment tomorrow.
Sounds like they do manage the property to be honest, especially if they collect the rent. If I was using an agent, it is the sort of thing I would expect them to be on top of. When I say "manage", I mean in terms of if a tenant has a leaky pipe and calls the agent, they forward the issue to me so I can organize plumber etc to fix, rather than them doing the legwork and organizing for it to be fixed.
Moominho said:
Mario149 said:
Was in touch with them yesterday - they will be chasing rent if the tenants go into arrears, but if I want to start eviction proceedings it's up to me.
When I say "manage", I mean in terms of if a tenant has a leaky pipe and calls the agent, they forward the issue to me so I can organize plumber etc to fix, rather than them doing the legwork and organizing for it to be fixed.
So if they chase the rent, and the tenant doesn't pay - what will they do next? When I say "manage", I mean in terms of if a tenant has a leaky pipe and calls the agent, they forward the issue to me so I can organize plumber etc to fix, rather than them doing the legwork and organizing for it to be fixed.
If you don't mind me asking, how much are you paying them? They seem to be doing a half arsed job, I assume you aren't paying them much of a percentage...
Without wanting to tempt fate, it's not the end of the world if they don't leave for a few months. The property is mortgage free, so while the lack of cash from it for a while will be irritating, it's not going to put me under. I'll still eventually get all of the due rent out of them (with arrears attracting interest at 4% above the base rate from memory) as it's not financial hardship that's stopping them paying.
Moominho said:
That's good. But it is the principle of the matter as much as anything!
Exactly my feeling.Moominho said:
It's not a legitimate excuse to stop paying and the letting agent should make this clear to them when chasing the outstanding rent.
Best of luck anyway, hope it all works out.
Thanks Best of luck anyway, hope it all works out.
Rangeroverover said:
Mario149 said:
Without wanting to tempt fate, it's not the end of the world if they don't leave for a few months. The property is mortgage free, so while the lack of cash from it for a while will be irritating, it's not going to put me under. I'll still eventually get all of the due rent out of them (with arrears attracting interest at 4% above the base rate from memory) as it's not financial hardship that's stopping them paying.
I wouldn't bet on getting any money from them even if you do get judgement. I am an agent and I'm afraid that yu have the pragmatic option or the longwinded oneOption 1) Be friendly, pay their deposit on a new flat for them on the basis they vacate within a week......cost to you lost rent to date plus one months rent
Option 2) Go through the court process, could take 6-9 months by the time you get through various adjournements due to the goldfish having food poisoning or sudden ebola illness on court days. Cost to you, legal fees, stress, 6-9 months + lost rent
The system is loaded against landlords, I would love to have a more robust way of dealing with delinquent/feral tenants; alas as they are seen to be somehow vulnerable they must be coddled. The poor landlord who often only has one investment property and is covering a 75% mortgage out of income while the scumbag tenants invent spurious disputes of course can easily afford it "they own property must be loaded innit"
You have my sympathy but just buy your way out its cheaper in the long run
markcoznottz said:
Such programmes are encouraging such behaviour imho, if a person with no assets on benefits/ newly unemployed decides to not pay, then kiss it goodbye, it's spent, long gone etc. OP you sound far too nice, you will have to evict.
Am possibly a bit too nice, but just trying to be reasonable as if I was the tenant I'd hope for some flexibility. As daft as it may sound I do believe in the whole "what goes around comes around" somewhat. Unless the tenants lied and duped the reference agency, they're on a decent gross income and the rent is <30% of it, and even less if they take my discount offer to stay.ETA: there are no kids involved btw
Slagathore said:
I wouldn't be too nice. Infact, I wouldn't be nice at all, but I also wouldn't be a dick.
You need to be firm with them and let them know that the rent has to be paid regardless, and that if it isn't paid, you will deduct it from the deposit or sue them for it. Then remind them that when you get a judgement against them, it will show up in referencing every time they try and rent somewhere else, and on their credit file etc.
I have done exactly this. They didn't appear to like it but since they're foreign I wanted to make sure that they understood how tenancy law worked here so they didn't accidentally make a daft decision thinking it was not no big deal. You need to be firm with them and let them know that the rent has to be paid regardless, and that if it isn't paid, you will deduct it from the deposit or sue them for it. Then remind them that when you get a judgement against them, it will show up in referencing every time they try and rent somewhere else, and on their credit file etc.
Slagathore said:
If they are genuine and the flat is unbearable, then I'd give them some options, like you have, so both parties get an easy life, but they still have to pay the rent.
People know how to play the system, so they could just be testing you out to see how soft you are or to see how much rent free living they think they can have.
By the sounds of it, they have only just started the tenancy? So if it's still within the fixed period of the tenancy, there isn't anything you can do, rent wise, until they are 2 months in arrears, then you can apply to the court for possession. There are other reasons you can apply for posession, but if it's strictly a rent one, then I think it's 2 months of arrears needed before you can apply. Then god knows how long the situation drags on for and more arrears build up. You can lose a lot more than those 2 months.
Another option would be to give them the option for a mutual termination and say you will let them leave the contract as soon as possible if the flat is so bad. Their reaction to that should tell you how to expect the rest to play out.
Tbh thinking about it recently, I genuinely don't think they're after rent free living. They've just been unlucky, can't bothered to compain to the council about the problem and want to hold me responsible for it and leave me to carry the costs even though I have zero obligation, or indeed ability (council said tenants have to complein, not landlord) to do anything. Threatening to withold rent is a bargaining position. But if they ever go 2 months into arrears meaning I can go the court route, then I'll be going there PDQ.People know how to play the system, so they could just be testing you out to see how soft you are or to see how much rent free living they think they can have.
By the sounds of it, they have only just started the tenancy? So if it's still within the fixed period of the tenancy, there isn't anything you can do, rent wise, until they are 2 months in arrears, then you can apply to the court for possession. There are other reasons you can apply for posession, but if it's strictly a rent one, then I think it's 2 months of arrears needed before you can apply. Then god knows how long the situation drags on for and more arrears build up. You can lose a lot more than those 2 months.
Another option would be to give them the option for a mutual termination and say you will let them leave the contract as soon as possible if the flat is so bad. Their reaction to that should tell you how to expect the rest to play out.
Bit of an update: the tenants did withold rent. The agent did a polite chase a few days later, no joy, I did a formal chase letter sent hardcopy and electronically after another week had passed warning of potential legal action, still no response. It's 2 weeks later now and I've just sent a final demand letter (1st class, proof of posting, will follow it up with an electronic copy tomorrow) stating how much is owed, plus interest etc etc stating that I will commence legal action to recover the unpaid rent in 2 weeks if the oustanding rent and interest due by that point is not paid. In that 2 weeks they will have missed a second payment so I have the option of issuing a Section 8 should I wish.
I'm flip-flopping between going for a Section 8 (eviction plus unpaid rent etc) or simply filing a claim for the unpaid rent and leaving the option open to evict for later. I'm 90% sure they have the money, they're just choosing to try and blackmail me. The issue is that I don't necessarily want to evict them, just get them to pay the rent owed and come to a fair solution for them to leave early that doesn't leave me out of pocket in letting fees and other costs associated with having to find new tenants early.
Section 8 is the default way to go, but can anyone with experience confirm whether I'll be able to add the cost of them not finishing the minimum tenancy term to my claim as well as the unpaid rent? By cost of them not finishing the minimum tenancy term I mean the (pro-rata'ed) lettings agency, contract and inventory fees I'll have to absorb & compensation for say the few weeks it'll take me to re-let the flat after they have gone+++?
+++= showing people round while they are there is a non-starter as they effectively said they'll bad mouth the place to prospective new tenants
I'm flip-flopping between going for a Section 8 (eviction plus unpaid rent etc) or simply filing a claim for the unpaid rent and leaving the option open to evict for later. I'm 90% sure they have the money, they're just choosing to try and blackmail me. The issue is that I don't necessarily want to evict them, just get them to pay the rent owed and come to a fair solution for them to leave early that doesn't leave me out of pocket in letting fees and other costs associated with having to find new tenants early.
Section 8 is the default way to go, but can anyone with experience confirm whether I'll be able to add the cost of them not finishing the minimum tenancy term to my claim as well as the unpaid rent? By cost of them not finishing the minimum tenancy term I mean the (pro-rata'ed) lettings agency, contract and inventory fees I'll have to absorb & compensation for say the few weeks it'll take me to re-let the flat after they have gone+++?
+++= showing people round while they are there is a non-starter as they effectively said they'll bad mouth the place to prospective new tenants
Seen the copy of the references the agent got, their combined income is plenty, rent is only ~30% of the gross figure
So the more I look at this the more section 8 seems the way to go. Earliest court date would be end of November, then proceedings take 1-2 months, judgement against them would give them another month to leave. That's 5-6 months worth of rent which is basically the same amount as if they just did the min term on the tenancy agreement which was was basically what I was after.
So the more I look at this the more section 8 seems the way to go. Earliest court date would be end of November, then proceedings take 1-2 months, judgement against them would give them another month to leave. That's 5-6 months worth of rent which is basically the same amount as if they just did the min term on the tenancy agreement which was was basically what I was after.
sun.and.rain said:
To go back to the original complaint, is anything being done about the noisy neighbours? Are you going to disclose the problem to prospective new tenants?
Honestly, I don't know. The tenants have effectively stopped communicating with me so it could have gone away or it could still be there. There is a neighbour I'm in contact with but she's slow at replying to texts. What I want to do is ask her for a running tally of when the noise happens so that I can begin a formal complaints process with the council and take action as necessary following the guidlines here:http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what...
In terms of disclosing the issue to future tenants now that I am aware of it, it is very much in my interests to do so, I don't want a repeat of this. I'd happily offer some discount on market rate in return for a tenants with a thicker skin. The previous tenants lived 2 happy years there (well, apart from their apparent breakup!) and when the tenancy was coming to an end the lady wanted to stay as she liked it so much. Unfortunately the rental figure she could offer on her own was about 35% less than the market value which meant we couldn't come to an agreement. When she had moved to her new place and dropped me an email back to pass on to the new tenants ref a letter that may have gone to her old address, she said it had been a pleasure dealing with myself and the agent for 2 years, or words to that effect.
Thought I'd give an update on this: after the tenants getting progressively more and more mental and/or dumb and me initiating court action, I gave them a final offer of 15% discount on their rent provided they cleared their arrears immediately (about 2.5 months worth at that point) and then weekly payments instead of monthly ones (so that I know if they renege on the deal within 7 days rather than 1 month and can un-pause legal action immediately) and they accepted. Well they didn't accept by email but a day after a Section 8 and court papers for a money claim against them arrived in their letter box the agent received the money. Next payment of rent weekly in advance is due in early Jan so hopefully they don't play silly buggers.
Honestly, my other half (who is Russian and spoke to them in Russian which is also their first language) said they're basically idiots. Appears that no matter what we were saying, they didn't believe that the contract was enforceable, or that the break clause didn't count, or that they simply didn't bother to read it (their English is fine btw), or that because my previous tenant thought it wasn't noisy and told them as much when they viewed that I was legally responsible for her words and misrepresented the flat etc etc etc. Genuinely baffling as to what their thought process was/is.
Anyway, although it's cost me some money (rent discount and £215 in county court costs) it seems to be back on track fingers crossed.
Honestly, my other half (who is Russian and spoke to them in Russian which is also their first language) said they're basically idiots. Appears that no matter what we were saying, they didn't believe that the contract was enforceable, or that the break clause didn't count, or that they simply didn't bother to read it (their English is fine btw), or that because my previous tenant thought it wasn't noisy and told them as much when they viewed that I was legally responsible for her words and misrepresented the flat etc etc etc. Genuinely baffling as to what their thought process was/is.
Anyway, although it's cost me some money (rent discount and £215 in county court costs) it seems to be back on track fingers crossed.
johnfm said:
Mario149 said:
uber said:
If you have an agent should they not be on top of it?
Agent finds tenants, does paper work, collects rent etc, but they don't "manage" the property. They may well be the people to take it forward (but I'm currently working on a worst case scenario that they're not), have pinged them an email to see exactly what services they provide, will also dig out the agreement we have with them when I have a moment tomorrow.
Well, another little update for your education and edification:
Tenants first payment after the 15% discount agreement arrived on time, but it went down hill after that. The agreement stipulated they should pay the new discounted figure weekly (rather than monthly) so I would know if they were playing silly buggers quicker and could un-pause court action, and also a nice little benefit for them would be that they could keep their money longer. What actually a happened was that I repeatedly had to chase them for late payments again, with them providing excuses like "we were on holiday" and "the bank wouldn't let us set up a weekly DD" etc. In the end i stopped chasing and just let the money come in when it came and eventually all of it arrived - I didn't think chasing would help and luckily they'd agreed to leave at the 6 month point so I just wanted them out. A few weeks before the leaving date I get an email asking if they can stay another 3 weeks I said no for obvious reasons.
They then said I'd be a receiving a request for a reference(!!!). It duly arrived and after 30s considering just writing the bare minimum generic positive reference to get them off my back, I couldn't in the end bring myself to deceive their future landlord, so I gave a full and honest account of what they'd done which was rather satisfying on a personal level. Needless to say they were refused the next place - at which point they started sending abusive emails/letters to me and my other half and asking why I'd given them such a bad reference when they didn't deserve it - you actually couldn't make it up. Anyway, I said the best I could offer them was no reference which they appear to have taken.
They finally moved out as planned, but didn't clean the flat properly so I had to get professional cleaners in to finish the job and after a bit of arguing they accepted that deduction from their deposit, as well as the court fees I had to pay from before. They also left 2 sets of prescription glasses and their passports in the flat - no word of a lie! Taking pity on them for the final time, instead of binning them all, I offered to, and subsequently did, post them to their new address special delivery etc for which they agreed to pay the postage form the deposit.
Given that they'd repeatedly broken our new December agreement, I gave serious consideration to deducting the full discount I'd given them from the deposit. In the end I decided to only claim half to be seen to try and come to a decent compromise and warned them that if we had to go to mediation I'd claim the full amount. Needless to say they felt outraged that I was removing some of their discount just because they were unwilling to pay the correct discounted weekly amount they'd agreed to pay on time and, well, weekly! I told them they can dispute it with the TDS if they want and that I was happy to make my case to them. Unsurprisingly I've had silence back.
So, when I've got a few moment in the next few days, I'll fill in the TDS gubbins to claim the full rent from the deposit as everything else is settled. I'm not in a particular hurry - it's a decent chunk but everything more at this point feels like a bonus even though it's money I'm owed - bit like when you find £20 in your jeans pocket.
Good news is that I have a couple of of new tenants hopefully moving in in 3 weeks - investigation of them would seem to show they're legit so fingers crossed will be nice to have regular income again from the flat. Plus I actually miss having nice tenants who I get on with - there's actually something quite satisfying about providing a decent place for people to live in and being able to get a return on investment. Especially when they're young as you feel quite paternal!
Tenants first payment after the 15% discount agreement arrived on time, but it went down hill after that. The agreement stipulated they should pay the new discounted figure weekly (rather than monthly) so I would know if they were playing silly buggers quicker and could un-pause court action, and also a nice little benefit for them would be that they could keep their money longer. What actually a happened was that I repeatedly had to chase them for late payments again, with them providing excuses like "we were on holiday" and "the bank wouldn't let us set up a weekly DD" etc. In the end i stopped chasing and just let the money come in when it came and eventually all of it arrived - I didn't think chasing would help and luckily they'd agreed to leave at the 6 month point so I just wanted them out. A few weeks before the leaving date I get an email asking if they can stay another 3 weeks
I said no for obvious reasons. They then said I'd be a receiving a request for a reference(!!!). It duly arrived and after 30s considering just writing the bare minimum generic positive reference to get them off my back, I couldn't in the end bring myself to deceive their future landlord, so I gave a full and honest account of what they'd done which was rather satisfying on a personal level. Needless to say they were refused the next place - at which point they started sending abusive emails/letters to me and my other half and asking why I'd given them such a bad reference when they didn't deserve it - you actually couldn't make it up. Anyway, I said the best I could offer them was no reference which they appear to have taken.
They finally moved out as planned, but didn't clean the flat properly so I had to get professional cleaners in to finish the job and after a bit of arguing they accepted that deduction from their deposit, as well as the court fees I had to pay from before. They also left 2 sets of prescription glasses and their passports in the flat - no word of a lie! Taking pity on them for the final time, instead of binning them all, I offered to, and subsequently did, post them to their new address special delivery etc for which they agreed to pay the postage form the deposit.
Given that they'd repeatedly broken our new December agreement, I gave serious consideration to deducting the full discount I'd given them from the deposit. In the end I decided to only claim half to be seen to try and come to a decent compromise and warned them that if we had to go to mediation I'd claim the full amount. Needless to say they felt outraged that I was removing some of their discount just because they were unwilling to pay the correct discounted weekly amount they'd agreed to pay on time and, well, weekly! I told them they can dispute it with the TDS if they want and that I was happy to make my case to them. Unsurprisingly I've had silence back.
So, when I've got a few moment in the next few days, I'll fill in the TDS gubbins to claim the full rent from the deposit as everything else is settled. I'm not in a particular hurry - it's a decent chunk but everything more at this point feels like a bonus even though it's money I'm owed - bit like when you find £20 in your jeans pocket.
Good news is that I have a couple of of new tenants hopefully moving in in 3 weeks - investigation of them would seem to show they're legit so fingers crossed will be nice to have regular income again from the flat. Plus I actually miss having nice tenants who I get on with - there's actually something quite satisfying about providing a decent place for people to live in and being able to get a return on investment. Especially when they're young as you feel quite paternal!
hyphen said:
Good on you for the reference
Have you heard the noise for yourself? If so may be worth adding some soundproofing since you have 3 weeks vacant.
Not heard the noise myself, but from what I can gather it's when the window is open (all the recordings I heard were when the phone was held out the window), so sound proofing won't really help short of telling people to shut all the windows and having the double glazing replaced with triple glazing.Have you heard the noise for yourself? If so may be worth adding some soundproofing since you have 3 weeks vacant.
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