It's coming - EU cross-border exchange of information

It's coming - EU cross-border exchange of information

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RedSwede

261 posts

193 months

Saturday 19th July 2014
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trashbat said:
his has always been the case the moment you set foot in a foreign country. You presumably have the choice of whether you go there or not.
We'll quite. As you imply below, you understand that I'm happy with the principal of this.

trashbat said:
I know that actually you're complaining about the hangover continuing once you arrive home, but the complaint about democracy you're trying to back it with is poor.
Why is it poor? Specifically, I'm complaining on two grounds: 1) currently, where crimes in a foreign country are proposed to be punished at home, the process is lengthy and involves full legal process, and 2) why should I be punished at home for something which may not be a crime here, something which I never signed up to other than during the period I was abroad, and something which I have no democratic power to influence? Choice through democracy of how we are governed is an important concept. (though I do admit somewhat ethereal and imprecise in the case of a motoring law, the concept is still important, and this erodes that).

Dammit

3,790 posts

207 months

Saturday 19th July 2014
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I would suggest a good reason would be that you went to the country in question of your own free will - if you didn't like their laws, then maybe stay out of the place?


trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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RedSwede said:
Why is it poor? Specifically, I'm complaining on two grounds: 1) currently, where crimes in a foreign country are proposed to be punished at home, the process is lengthy and involves full legal process, and 2) why should I be punished at home for something which may not be a crime here, something which I never signed up to other than during the period I was abroad, and something which I have no democratic power to influence? Choice through democracy of how we are governed is an important concept. (though I do admit somewhat ethereal and imprecise in the case of a motoring law, the concept is still important, and this erodes that).
Democracy is valuable when you are inescapably subject to a government's actions. If you had no say in the running of your own country, and the results were intolerable, you'd have little option but to become a refugee.

Expecting democracy when you are a guest abroad is daft. You've no more right to it than going round to friends for dinner and expecting to vote out their tasteless furniture.

If your point is that the enforcement of foreign laws should be timeboxed to whilst you are there, consider this. If you were caught committing various crimes in certain foreign countries today, you could be put in prison for many years, or in extreme cases, sentenced to death. The same actions might well see no or very limited punishment at home.

Similarly, you could commit serious crimes abroad that are serious crimes at home, and thus expect to be extradited or otherwise arrested under an international warrant.

As I said to the previous poster, you seem to be looking for a fenced off middle zone of petty crime where nothing comes of it. Why?

Finally, you do have democratic control over this. You could use your domestic vote to express your wish to leave the international agreement that frames it.

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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On a different note, part of the conceptual motivation for it is this - a key aim of the EU social project is that as an EU citizen, you can go anywhere in the EU and be treated the same way regardless of your citizenship. I don't mean the same way universally as in 'pay the same amount of tax anywhere', but the same way as in break the law in France and get treated like a Frenchman.

At the moment this is not the case, because national police forces can't do anything but take on the spot action. So, when you get done for speeding in France, if you're French you get points, and if you're British you get a fine. That runs contrary to those same principles of union.

bad company

18,483 posts

265 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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Riley Blue said:
I don't see this as a bad thing at all. It's very arrogant of us to think that we should be able to commit traffic offences abroad without being caught and punished.
Brits being arrogant abroad, surely not. yikeswink

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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Some posters are looking at this in a completely shallow way imo.

True it will, at least in theory, stop foreigners over in UK and UK drivers overseas completely taking the mick. That's not a bad thing.

But then look at it more deeply and think about the discussions we have on here concerning issues where the signs are all in our language, the road system is familiar, the highway code is published and easily available in written form and on-line, and in English, as is most of the relevant legislation which is behind it all. Plus case law is available to some.

And we still get disagreements, friendly and otherwise, on the interpretation of the rules. Sometimes the specific interpretation of a street / road sign where the precise application relies, not on the pictorial sign but the attached text plate.

Now imagine doing all that, but in French, or Greek, or Finnish. Or being faced with a sign where the text really is important, in real time as you are driving along. Or preparing to visit a country where the highway code is not readily available and certainly not in English, or maybe one is not even available.

That's before we consider local conventions that aren't exactly printed formally but can get you into all sorts of problems if you don't understand them, e.g. cyclist quite legally on the pavement, near a pedestrian crossing, are they a cyclist or a pedestrian, because in some places it all depends on what they are doing, a dab of the foot could turn them into a pedestrian and accord them precedence. Some of them take the mick.

So now your licence, livelihood and keeping a roof over your head could hang in the balance over an offence where realistically you have great difficulty in doing the right thing, even finding out what is the right thing to do.

In my opinion, if the EU want to bring in cross border enforcement of penalties, which includes points and possible disqualification in a driver's home country, then they can only do this with a complete integration of the laws and practices throughout the EU, including signage and information available in all languages.

Without this it will effectively reduce the possibilities for cross border freedom of travel by simply making it more difficult, and the EU is ALL ABOUT freedom of travel is it not?

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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I think what you describe probably *is* the aim.

Aside from a few weird historical exceptions like France's yellow diamond 'priorité à droite', what foreign signage or rules aren't common across the EU? i.e. what local knowledge/language do you require to stay legal? I can't say language plays an enormous part when driving IME.

Genuine question - there might well be loads.

ATG

20,480 posts

271 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Right ... so your objection is that you'll find it harder to get away with breaking the law?

Stoofa

958 posts

167 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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trashbat said:
Stoofa said:
Personally I feel that a country should only be able to ban you in that country. So arse about in France and really they have every right to ban you from their roads - as long as you are treated the same way a French resident would be.
I'm also quite happy for fines to be cross-border. Again why people feel they can go to other countries and do as they please is beyond me.
However points should not carry across borders.
You're happy with fines and I'm going to guess that you're happy with the more serious end of the scale, like international arrest warrants, although apologies if you do object to those. Where then do you draw the lines that mark out the 'only a crime while you're there' area of lawbreaking, and how do you justify it?
If I have comitted any kind of crime in a foreign country, why should I feel "safe" once I make it back to the UK?
Of course I have no problem. Mainly because I wont be comitting any crimes anywhere, but if I did I'd expect to be hit by the local law on whatever it is I'd done.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
quotequote all
trashbat said:
I think what you describe probably *is* the aim.

Aside from a few weird historical exceptions like France's yellow diamond 'priorité à droite', what foreign signage or rules aren't common across the EU? i.e. what local knowledge/language do you require to stay legal? I can't say language plays an enormous part when driving IME.

Genuine question - there might well be loads.
What's the drink driving limit in Croatia?

Riley Blue

20,908 posts

225 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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davepoth said:
What's the drink driving limit in Croatia?
Same as Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, Germany (Germany is 0.3 if you’re in an accident), Finland, France, Greece, Italy, Serbia/Montenegro, Latvia, Macedonia, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, Cyprus (North), Switzerland i.e. 0.5 mg per ml.



FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
quotequote all
trashbat said:
I think what you describe probably *is* the aim.

Aside from a few weird historical exceptions like France's yellow diamond 'priorité à droite', what foreign signage or rules aren't common across the EU? i.e. what local knowledge/language do you require to stay legal? I can't say language plays an enormous part when driving IME.

Genuine question - there might well be loads.
Well if we accept that there is a fair bit of signage in UK where the text forms the devil in the detail.

You can get the same in Sweden. The sign for restricted access to mechanically propelled vehicles accompanied by a text defining exactly what the restrictions are. Could be only permitted vehicles. Could be for access only. Could be anyone allowed except through traffic.

Or you arrive in a place which has an additional sign giving a time restriction for tomgångskörning. So what do you do?

It's a restriction on how long you can keep your engine idling. In some places it's zero. Didn't stop the buses outside on apartment I had ticking over for ages in the winter. I never managed to figure out the precise rule.

But that's just a couple of examples. Ok you aren't going to get banned but the point stands. We tend to forget the text plates often define the exact restrictions because we can read and understand them so easily. Or not which is why so many questions in SP&L.

By the way if people think I'm giving simple minor examples what do foreigners make of our car derived van speed limits etc.

ATG

20,480 posts

271 months

Sunday 20th July 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Sorry, missed the bit where you said "it's a good thing". First post was a response to the question "what's the problem?" so it sounded like you did indeed see a problem with it.

RedSwede

261 posts

193 months

Monday 21st July 2014
quotequote all
trashbat said:
Consider this: If you were caught committing various crimes in certain foreign countries today, you could be put in prison for many years, or in extreme cases, sentenced to death. The same actions might well see no or very limited punishment at home.

Similarly, you could commit serious crimes abroad that are serious crimes at home, and thus expect to be extradited or otherwise arrested under an international warrant.

As I said to the previous poster, you seem to be looking for a fenced off middle zone of petty crime where nothing comes of it. Why?
I perfectly understand the "serious crimes" situation. However, in these cases, there are distinct differences, which I have already partially eluded to. There is a very full and legal process. Most motoring offences are essentially guilty unless proved innocent. In the case of extradition, there will be long and in-depth hearings. In the case of serious punishment abroad, if it is an obviously serious crime, you should expect it, and if it is a "less obviously serious crime" (which it is probably still obvious is pretty stupid) then there will almost certainly be some element of diplomatic involvement. I imagine this is not how it would work for motoring offences - the costs would probably be astronomical.

I am not after a "middle ground". All I am saying is that we don't just allow the host country to dish out a punishment of their choice to someone who is not in their country without the need for any involvement of the Citizens own country.

It would be maybe reasonable to have a punishment applied on return home for the crime committed had it been in your own country - that would be fair. But not for the other country to prescribe how you will be punished in your own country without a legal hearing in your own country.

hdrflow

854 posts

137 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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The reason this is most unwelcome is because it brings us closer to an european federation that is surreptitiously being introduced. There's a big difference in allowing for a common european economic market (which is a good thing), but this is too close to political union. The on spot fines represent a balance between the need to deal with an infraction and the residence status of the driver. In France they can already prevent you from driving your car above certain thresholds. That should be a big enough deterrent. It certainly is to me.

It should also spark a debate as to whether the EU parliament/commission has such mandate and if it does then perhaps their reach is too broad imho.

Besides, I drive in France because I'm either visiting or passing through. Have no more intention of breaking French traffic laws than I have in breaking English traffic laws. I'm sure the vast majority of people are the same.

irked

Zeeky

2,779 posts

211 months

Monday 21st July 2014
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Implementing legislation is the least of the UK's problems. It is unlikely the UK will have the practical means to share the relevant data by May 2015. The draft Directive isn't guaranteed to come into force by the deadline but both the Council and Parliament appear keen to achieve this. Not much chance of the UK getting sufficient support to block the Directive at Council.

Dog Star

16,079 posts

167 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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ATG said:
Right ... so your objection is that you'll find it harder to get away with breaking the law?
My objection is that in France for example the police are incredibly sneaky and take to hiding behind walls, trees and in bushes.

Their cameras are a total pain and seem to have absolutely no margin for error.

In 30 years in the UK I have never had a point, nor been flashed by a camera. In France (and I'm well versed in driving there; I used to live and work there) I am constantly setting off their blasted cameras - For example I managed three in one day in May and one two days ago (one of the same ones as last time (this fella https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@49.18958,-0.332778,... in fact, on the ring road round Caen. I was totally aware of it coming up and was doing bang on 95kmh in a 90 and the bugger still went off! Yes, I realise that I was still speeding, but that's taking the piss. It's a rare trip indeed when I don't trigger one. And yet in the UK - never a problem.




mybrainhurts

90,809 posts

254 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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trashbat said:
On a different note, part of the conceptual motivation for it is this - a key aim of the EU social project is that as an EU citizen, you can go anywhere in the EU and be treated the same way regardless of your citizenship. I don't mean the same way universally as in 'pay the same amount of tax anywhere', but the same way as in break the law in France and get treated like a Frenchman.
You mean the same way Mike Rutherford was treated in France? Pulled into a layby portakabin for speeding, when he wasn't, as French cars thundered by unhindered, then had a gun placed on the table when he asked for a receipt after his cash was dropped into the desk drawer?

All the cars pulled into the layby were UK registered.

That kind of "treated the same way"?

mybrainhurts

90,809 posts

254 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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paulrussell said:
agtlaw said:
At the moment, we don't recognise foreign bans but I'd expect that to change at some point
The directive doesn't mention that at all, so stop the scare mongering.
Oh, ye, of great naivety.

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Tuesday 22nd July 2014
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mybrainhurts said:
You mean the same way Mike Rutherford was treated in France? Pulled into a layby portakabin for speeding, when he wasn't, as French cars thundered by unhindered, then had a gun placed on the table when he asked for a receipt after his cash was dropped into the desk drawer?

All the cars pulled into the layby were UK registered.

That kind of "treated the same way"?
Erm... can I interest Sir in a large dose of the very point?

Incidentally, how do you know that the French drivers didn't receive penalty points in the post?

(FWIW I think there's some merit in the French pulling over a disproportionate number of RHD drivers)