Joining the Police
Discussion
Armchair_Expert said:
Cliffe60 said:
Boo hoo! Nearly everyone I know working in the private sector has had their pensions severely f@cked up, from freezing your “final salary” at what it was in 2010, to reducing amount per year from 1/40 to 1/50 to 1/60.
Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
Not a great hardship in a cushy office role, safe and away from the dregs of society with very little risk to your physical and mental health. How many weddings, funerals and birthdays were you not allowed to attend in your banking role because the bank required you to work on a day off, and how many cancelled holidays were you forced to incur?Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
The recent pension debacle was illegal, hence why it has been through the courts over the past 6 years and now successfully won by it's claimants. That is a significant outcome, not just some "oh well it happens to us all so stop whining about it" scenario.
Anyhow back to the thread. There is clearly still an attraction for people to join the police. My son joined a couple of years back. He could probably have done a number of different things, but after university decide that was what he wanted. he didn't get in at first, but sold Tesla's for a while then did other sales work, while he was applying again to get in. he made it eventually & now seems to quite enjoy it. Obviously being younger, he's yet to be ground down by it all. His girlfreind who he's know from Uni also is in the same force.
Spleen said:
Respect for those that do it but after watching a show on Ch4 it strikes me that your average copper is nothing more than a social worker with the powers of arrest. That’s not a dig by the way.
Exactly right, response officers today do more work that is really the role of other agencies than actual police work.Victims of crime get a poor service because cops are busy doing something that social services/NHS/mental health teams/schools etc, etc should be dealing with.
We need to simply say “no, it’s your role, and your risk to manage” to other agencies when they try to pass over their work.
ED209 said:
Spleen said:
Respect for those that do it but after watching a show on Ch4 it strikes me that your average copper is nothing more than a social worker with the powers of arrest. That’s not a dig by the way.
Exactly right, response officers today do more work that is really the role of other agencies than actual police work.Victims of crime get a poor service because cops are busy doing something that social services/NHS/mental health teams/schools etc, etc should be dealing with.
We need to simply say “no, it’s your role, and your risk to manage” to other agencies when they try to pass over their work.
Every. Single. Day.
GT03ROB said:
Armchair_Expert said:
Cliffe60 said:
Boo hoo! Nearly everyone I know working in the private sector has had their pensions severely f@cked up, from freezing your “final salary” at what it was in 2010, to reducing amount per year from 1/40 to 1/50 to 1/60.
Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
Not a great hardship in a cushy office role, safe and away from the dregs of society with very little risk to your physical and mental health. How many weddings, funerals and birthdays were you not allowed to attend in your banking role because the bank required you to work on a day off, and how many cancelled holidays were you forced to incur?Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
The recent pension debacle was illegal, hence why it has been through the courts over the past 6 years and now successfully won by it's claimants. That is a significant outcome, not just some "oh well it happens to us all so stop whining about it" scenario.
Anyhow back to the thread. There is clearly still an attraction for people to join the police. My son joined a couple of years back. He could probably have done a number of different things, but after university decide that was what he wanted. he didn't get in at first, but sold Tesla's for a while then did other sales work, while he was applying again to get in. he made it eventually & now seems to quite enjoy it. Obviously being younger, he's yet to be ground down by it all. His girlfreind who he's know from Uni also is in the same force.
There's a ton of actuarial data that shows (or showed, I'm not sure how recently it's been redone) that life expectancy after retiring from the cops is well below that of the rest of the population, although I believe it's improved somewhat in recent years.
Whenever the PH BiB start moaning about the cops, there are always posters who say "If you don't like it, leave", "Should've worked harder at school" or "You knew what you were getting yourself into". I paraphrase, but exactly those phrases can be parroted back at people complaining about working in the financial sector. When I joined, no one ever said to me that the pension could be messed around with and with the benefit of hindsight, perhaps I should've asked that question earlier on. As stressful as working finance might be, you're not going to be picking up bits of people, delivering death warning messages, trying to referee people's lives or trying to talk someone down from a motorway bridge very often, if at all.
I wish I could post the summary logs on here for a week so that people could see what response cops are dealing with every time they go to work.
There are a number of new recruits now who don't see themselves working 30/35/40 years, maybe 5 or 10 and consequently, don't pay into the police pension scheme.
Policing isn't the most physically dangerous job in the UK. I know the death rates per however many thousand employees are much higher for stuff like construction and farming, but policing is different. Anyone who hasn't already should have a read of John Sutherland's excellent books on policing and the damage it can do to police officers. I can't find the tweet/quote from him, but to paraphrase (again), people will suffer fro MH issues if they're exposed to three or four traumatic incidents in their lives. Police officers will on average experience several hundred during their career...
https://policecommander.wordpress.com
Dibble said:
Every day when I check the overnight logs, there are always several MH bed watch jobs. It's not unusual for an oncoming shift to immediately lose 3 or 4 officers to supervising people while they wait for assessment by a mental health practitioner. When there are beds available in the county, you can almost guarantee they're at the far end from where the patient is seen and it's then down to the cops to transport them, which could be an hour's journey there, handover to the medical staff then travel back. Minimum of three hours (that's if it goes smoothly) and doesn't include the initial waiting around. There are response cops who do a whole shift without actually responding to a single "police" job because they are taking up the slack for other agencies who are (on paper at least) much better able/equipped/trained to deal with people in MH crisis/child welfare/family issues/elderly care.
Every. Single. Day.
Those people should be transported in an ambulance. A secure ambulance if necessary. On very odd occasions in my force this does actually happen. Every. Single. Day.
ED209 said:
Those people should be transported in an ambulance. A secure ambulance if necessary. On very odd occasions in my force this does actually happen.
They should… but they’re non-time critical and apparently until the cops deliver them (either to the unit or suitable transport), they remain our responsibility. So you end up either waiting the n+1 hours until the ambulance transport arrives, or driving them to the unit, which often works out quicker.When I had my motorbike accident, I was lucky. I had the response paramedic there within about fifteen minutes, whacking me full of morphine and entonox, and the actual transport ambulance was there inside 30 minutes.
We regularly see logs where people have what any sane person would consider “serious” injuries (broken limb, broken jaw, serious wound with lots of claret) and ambulance ETAs of “not yet allocated, no vehicle”. It’s not uncommon for it to be several hours for an ambulance to arrive, so again, the cops end up taking some people to A&E.
None of this is criticism of the ambulance service/crews, they’ve been “efficiented” as well (aka fewer bases, fewer vehicles, fewer staff…)
ED209 said:
Spleen said:
Respect for those that do it but after watching a show on Ch4 it strikes me that your average copper is nothing more than a social worker with the powers of arrest. That’s not a dig by the way.
Exactly right, response officers today do more work that is really the role of other agencies than actual police work.Victims of crime get a poor service because cops are busy doing something that social services/NHS/mental health teams/schools etc, etc should be dealing with.
We need to simply say “no, it’s your role, and your risk to manage” to other agencies when they try to pass over their work.
Many many years ago, I used to be an A&E nurse and we worked quite closely with our local cops just because we were forever getting threatened, gobbed on and generally treated like s
t because chummy had to wait four hours with his 'headache' but was still able to create mayhem in a waiting room. Cue a quick call to the cops and hey presto, sorted. But even then they were escorting very obviously mentally ill people to A&E and at that time we had shag all resources to deal with them so the cops would have to sit with them until the on-call could get there to try and find a non-existent bed. This could take anything from 45 mins to six hours and so whilst our local community were beating and stabbing the crap out of each other on the streets, two cops were tied up babysitting. Bonkers back then, frankly.Armchair_Expert said:
Cliffe60 said:
Boo hoo! Nearly everyone I know working in the private sector has had their pensions severely f@cked up, from freezing your “final salary” at what it was in 2010, to reducing amount per year from 1/40 to 1/50 to 1/60.
Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
Not a great hardship in a cushy office role, safe and away from the dregs of society with very little risk to your physical and mental health. How many weddings, funerals and birthdays were you not allowed to attend in your banking role because the bank required you to work on a day off, and how many cancelled holidays were you forced to incur?Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
The recent pension debacle was illegal, hence why it has been through the courts over the past 6 years and now successfully won by it's claimants. That is a significant outcome, not just some "oh well it happens to us all so stop whining about it" scenario.
I really resent the current public attitude fired up by the media that unless you work for the NHS, emergency services or military, your job is second rate and somehow inferior and unimportant.
The job I was describing ( not mine), is in cyber security, which left unchecked would bring the country and world’s economy down quicker than the police walking away.
Edited by Cliffe60 on Monday 5th July 11:01
Cliffe60 said:
They have the same choice as anyone else if they don’t like the job.
I really resent the current public attitude fired up by the media that unless you work for the NHS, emergency services or military, your job is second rate and somehow inferior and unimportant.
The job I was describing ( not mine), is in cyber security, which left unchecked would bring the country and works economy down quicker than the police walking away.
I don’t find this at all, the media is full of the same anti police stories as usual. I really resent the current public attitude fired up by the media that unless you work for the NHS, emergency services or military, your job is second rate and somehow inferior and unimportant.
The job I was describing ( not mine), is in cyber security, which left unchecked would bring the country and works economy down quicker than the police walking away.
ED209 said:
Spleen said:
Respect for those that do it but after watching a show on Ch4 it strikes me that your average copper is nothing more than a social worker with the powers of arrest. That’s not a dig by the way.
Exactly right, response officers today do more work that is really the role of other agencies than actual police work.Victims of crime get a poor service because cops are busy doing something that social services/NHS/mental health teams/schools etc, etc should be dealing with.
Spleen said:
ED209 said:
Spleen said:
Respect for those that do it but after watching a show on Ch4 it strikes me that your average copper is nothing more than a social worker with the powers of arrest. That’s not a dig by the way.
Exactly right, response officers today do more work that is really the role of other agencies than actual police work.Victims of crime get a poor service because cops are busy doing something that social services/NHS/mental health teams/schools etc, etc should be dealing with.
We need to simply say “no, it’s your role, and your risk to manage” to other agencies when they try to pass over their work.
Many many years ago, I used to be an A&E nurse and we worked quite closely with our local cops just because we were forever getting threatened, gobbed on and generally treated like s
t because chummy had to wait four hours with his 'headache' but was still able to create mayhem in a waiting room. Cue a quick call to the cops and hey presto, sorted. But even then they were escorting very obviously mentally ill people to A&E and at that time we had shag all resources to deal with them so the cops would have to sit with them until the on-call could get there to try and find a non-existent bed. This could take anything from 45 mins to six hours and so whilst our local community were beating and stabbing the crap out of each other on the streets, two cops were tied up babysitting. Bonkers back then, frankly.Dibble said:
While cyber security is undoubtedly (and increasingly) important, you’re pretty unlikely to be at risk of direct harm in the day to day work, out with the normal stresses and strains present in any other job like workload and timescales.
I know about a dozen recently retired or soon to be retiring coppers and none have even had a scratch on duty, that’s about 300 years service between them.I think outside the big cities , the chance of getting hurt , is pretty low.
I think that’s a fairly naive view. I could list my long term injuries and I’ve had a fairly average career. Yes I worked a busy area, but it’s just the way it is.
I’m sure there are bobbies in Outer Bumblefk who police sheep rustling and generally have an easy time of it, but they are the exception.
My other half has 2yrs service and she’s already got ligament damage in her knee.
Policing is a risky business, although the naysayers won’t have you believe it.
I’m sure there are bobbies in Outer Bumblef
k who police sheep rustling and generally have an easy time of it, but they are the exception. My other half has 2yrs service and she’s already got ligament damage in her knee.
Policing is a risky business, although the naysayers won’t have you believe it.
wiliferus said:
I think that’s a fairly naive view. I could list my long term injuries and I’ve had a fairly average career. Yes I worked a busy area, but it’s just the way it is.
I’m sure there are bobbies in Outer Bumblefk who police sheep rustling and generally have an easy time of it, but they are the exception.
My other half has 2yrs service and she’s already got ligament damage in her knee.
Policing is a risky business, although the naysayers won’t have you believe it.
It's not just the risk of being assaulted on duty. Dealing with the dregs and being repeatedly exposed to trauma will damage you mentally, no matter how robust you think you are. There is the constant worry of missing something with safeguarding, the cumulative damaging effects of working shifts and the fact that assaults on police are massively under reported and under recorded. You're much more likely to be assaulted - and more seriously - outside the big cities, because there are far few officers to attend and to back up.I’m sure there are bobbies in Outer Bumblef
k who police sheep rustling and generally have an easy time of it, but they are the exception. My other half has 2yrs service and she’s already got ligament damage in her knee.
Policing is a risky business, although the naysayers won’t have you believe it.
Just because you don't know officers that haven't been assaulted doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thankfully, serious assaults on officers are pretty rare, but they do happen. Less serious assaults are common and I'm amazed there are a discrete group of 12 officers who've never been assaulted throughout their entire, cumulative careers.
I'm not saying there aren't work and other stresses for people working in cyber security, but I'm pretty confident no one in that field has had to squeegee a jumper from the pavement, review and grade tens of thousands of indecent images of adults having sex with children and young babies, or do a line search for "bits" of a person after an RTA or a train suicide, been first on scene at a cot death, been first on scene at a domestic murder where the male party had repeatedly battered the female party to death with the pointy bit of an iron, swinging with such force that the entire walls, floor and ceiling of the kitchen looked like a Jackson Pollock painting, leaving nothing of the woman recognisable above the shoulders other than a bloody stump where her head used to be.
Dibble said:
It's not just the risk of being assaulted on duty. Dealing with the dregs and being repeatedly exposed to trauma will damage you mentally, no matter how robust you think you are. There is the constant worry of missing something with safeguarding, the cumulative damaging effects of working shifts and the fact that assaults on police are massively under reported and under recorded. You're much more likely to be assaulted - and more seriously - outside the big cities, because there are far few officers to attend and to back up.
Just because you don't know officers that haven't been assaulted doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thankfully, serious assaults on officers are pretty rare, but they do happen. Less serious assaults are common and I'm amazed there are a discrete group of 12 officers who've never been assaulted throughout their entire, cumulative careers.
I'm not saying there aren't work and other stresses for people working in cyber security, but I'm pretty confident no one in that field has had to squeegee a jumper from the pavement, review and grade tens of thousands of indecent images of adults having sex with children and young babies, or do a line search for "bits" of a person after an RTA or a train suicide, been first on scene at a cot death, been first on scene at a domestic murder where the male party had repeatedly battered the female party to death with the pointy bit of an iron, swinging with such force that the entire walls, floor and ceiling of the kitchen looked like a Jackson Pollock painting, leaving nothing of the woman recognisable above the shoulders other than a bloody stump where her head used to be.
Some of the scenes don't bear remembering. One of my PCs turned up to a bloke who'd died while sitting a couple of feet from an electric fire. She was in a right state (so was he of course, and the bites from the cats didn't help). I sent her home to hubby and she took an extra day off, then was back to work. Apologised of all things. Just because you don't know officers that haven't been assaulted doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Thankfully, serious assaults on officers are pretty rare, but they do happen. Less serious assaults are common and I'm amazed there are a discrete group of 12 officers who've never been assaulted throughout their entire, cumulative careers.
I'm not saying there aren't work and other stresses for people working in cyber security, but I'm pretty confident no one in that field has had to squeegee a jumper from the pavement, review and grade tens of thousands of indecent images of adults having sex with children and young babies, or do a line search for "bits" of a person after an RTA or a train suicide, been first on scene at a cot death, been first on scene at a domestic murder where the male party had repeatedly battered the female party to death with the pointy bit of an iron, swinging with such force that the entire walls, floor and ceiling of the kitchen looked like a Jackson Pollock painting, leaving nothing of the woman recognisable above the shoulders other than a bloody stump where her head used to be.
I've had sleepless nights of course but then, who hasn't? Apart from promotion chasers.
I was injured a number of times in my early career. I had no expectations that I'd come through without physical scars and I wonder where this miraculous dozen police. I don't particularly blame those who injured me; often if I'd been more experienced, I'd not have been hurt.
I broke three vertebrae in 1978 and it's only been recently where it's given me a bit of stick. I'm pleased that that doctors' prognosis was 20 years out. My knees are damaged, a couple of broken toes, chipped shin bone which means the slightest knock takes months on occasion to heal. An arthritic jaw from a double punch - I blame that bloke. A colleague, Lefty, can’t turn his head to the right. About the same as the ex rugby players at my club of similar vintage.
However, the worst for me was the mental damage. Four and a half years of torture for my wife and kids while I was off with the fairies. I’m better now, but it’s a bit like my right shin. It wasn’t pleasant, but was totally avoidable. All they had to do was follow guidelines, especially those that got in the way. On top of that, and making it worse, was the way I was treated by those trying to ensure I didn't claim anything.
The job, at least for me, had compensations that outweighed the physical damage, and by some distance. I've worked in teams in dangerous situations where we had to look after one-another. There’s a buzz to that. I’ve chased offenders on foot – much more exciting than blues and twos.
I’ve saved lives, and there’re people out there who wouldn’t be if it wasn’t for me. I’ve gone into a mob, of a thousand or two, with five colleagues to rescue two coppers who were being viciously kicked, one on the ground and being stamped on. When we dragged them back to police lines, other coppers applauded us. That’s one memory that’s worth limping for a few days.
Cliffe60 said:
They have the same choice as anyone else if they don’t like the job.
I really resent the current public attitude fired up by the media that unless you work for the NHS, emergency services or military, your job is second rate and somehow inferior and unimportant.
The job I was describing ( not mine), is in cyber security, which left unchecked would bring the country and world’s economy down quicker than the police walking away.
I reckon that might be a photo finish. Nobody sitting in the warm with hot and cold running pizza and coke is going to be hailed as a hero in any universe. Get over it.I really resent the current public attitude fired up by the media that unless you work for the NHS, emergency services or military, your job is second rate and somehow inferior and unimportant.
The job I was describing ( not mine), is in cyber security, which left unchecked would bring the country and world’s economy down quicker than the police walking away.
Edited by Cliffe60 on Monday 5th July 11:01
Cliffe60 said:
I know about a dozen recently retired or soon to be retiring coppers and none have even had a scratch on duty, that’s about 300 years service between them.
I think outside the big cities , the chance of getting hurt , is pretty low.
I was medically retired as a result of injuries received in the execution of duty. My injury is permanent, it has got worse and, having tried all treatments known to medical science, the only option is now pain management. A serious assault ended my career.I think outside the big cities , the chance of getting hurt , is pretty low.
TBH I'm glad to be out but not so glad to carry the injury for life.
Having been a regular at The Police Treatment Centres (Charities set up to help sick and injured police officers) I think you are underestimating the number of officers who get hurt and, possibly, the nature of those injuries. I've met some officers who were pretty knackered.
My injuries were not sustained in the city.
Cliffe60 said:
Armchair_Expert said:
Cliffe60 said:
Boo hoo! Nearly everyone I know working in the private sector has had their pensions severely f@cked up, from freezing your “final salary” at what it was in 2010, to reducing amount per year from 1/40 to 1/50 to 1/60.
Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
Not a great hardship in a cushy office role, safe and away from the dregs of society with very little risk to your physical and mental health. How many weddings, funerals and birthdays were you not allowed to attend in your banking role because the bank required you to work on a day off, and how many cancelled holidays were you forced to incur?Hence what should have been a £40k a year pension in a couple of years, is now £18k in one major bank.
Overtime pay is non existent in most professional jobs let alone getting it to count towards pensions.
The recent pension debacle was illegal, hence why it has been through the courts over the past 6 years and now successfully won by it's claimants. That is a significant outcome, not just some "oh well it happens to us all so stop whining about it" scenario.
I really resent the current public attitude fired up by the media that unless you work for the NHS, emergency services or military, your job is second rate and somehow inferior and unimportant.
The job I was describing ( not mine), is in cyber security, which left unchecked would bring the country and world’s economy down quicker than the police walking away.
Now I earn more & work less.
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