Dispute over heating - Landlord & tenant

[Ekona]

S1MMA said:

Ekona said:

The agreement doesn't seem remotely unfair to me. Half the size property, half the bill. How is that unfair?

Because I'm not in the building from 8am - 6pm, when the heating is on, so why should I pay for it. How is that so complicated to understand?

Looks like we are on repeat here, some of you need to READ the thread before responding.

True, but you HAVE USE of the building for 24/7, just like the bloke downstairs. At least, I assume you do. Please enlighten me if that's not the case.

The way I see it, your personal circumstances are just that: Personal. What if you happen to be at home during the week, let's say you break your leg next week and we suddenly get a cold snap. Would you then be volunteering to pay more of the bill as you're at home with the heating on during the day then? Or do you want it both ways?

Now, I suspect you'd actually be happy to volunteer some extra money if you did change your heating habits, so I'm willing to call that one quits. However, that still doesn't get around the fact that the easiest way forward would be to come to some kind of arrangement with the guy downstairs and your respective landlords as to fixing this permanently. That would be cheaper than a bunch of solicitors, and fairer all round. Failing that, if you're 100% sure that the LL needs to make everything cosy then you go right ahead. However, if you'd been that sure I doubt you'd have started a thread on an internet forum asking about it.


Now stop throwing a hissy fit and listen to what people are trying to say. Some are helpful, some are not, but to dismiss things people are saying just because you don't agree with it seems a daft way to go about asking for help on a subject you're unsure about.

[JM]

S1MMA said:

JM said:

Ask the landlord to fit a heatmeter into each property so you each pay for what you use.

How would this work? Would they have to isolate each flats supply for a meter to be used? Also I assume there would need to be a control of supply to each flat, which currently doesn't exist, it's all or nothing.

A meter would be installed on the flow pipe going to each property, and yes some sort of control for each property would be required. Not sure if just radiator valves would do or you would need something else.

Presumably you have valves on the radiators so you can turn them down if you want?

[Grandad Gaz]

OP, I think you must be a bloody Eskimo if you only have the heating on for 2 hours in the evening at this time of year!

[Roo]

MW-M5 said:

So £300 per flat for the heating over two winter months in a large, old (read non energy efficient) property and you are moaning. This actually doesn't sound too bad at all.

Not just me thinking that then.

[sparkythecat]

Roo said:

MW-M5 said:

So £300 per flat for the heating over two winter months in a large, old (read non energy efficient) property and you are moaning. This actually doesn't sound too bad at all.

Not just me thinking that then.

It's Five pounds per day. If the OP considers that a fair cost for his own heating requirements is only £1 per day, we're talking about moving home and all the aggravation that entails, just to save £4 per day.

Is it worth it?

[superlightr]

OP - whats the EPC rating for your property and whats the estimated heating costs that are shown on the EPC?

[zollburgers]

S1MMA said:

The hilarious thing to all this is that this is not some £300k house in the countryside. The house is worth about £25m. A new heating system would probably cost about £15k, go figure. B prefers to have all this hassle rather than spend a trivial amount of money (to him) on his own property. Shows how the other side live!


Give me your views!

My view is that you prefer to have all this hassle rather than spend a trivial amount of money (to you) on heating. Yes it has no benefit to you. But how is that different to him spending £15k on a new heating system that has no benefit to him?

[Steve H]

I may be mis-estimating numbers here but if this building is worth £25m, each flat, £6m, the rent at just 1% return would be £5k a month.

This leads me to three questions:

1) Do people really pay sixty grand a year just to live in a flat? (essential northerner question)
2) Why would a landlord keep an investment that only returns 1% on capital? (I guess capital growth would explain that in recent years?)
3) Why would the OP be getting his knickers in a twist over an amount that is only around 3% of his monthly rent?

[joe_90]

Steve H said:

I may be mis-estimating numbers here but if this building is worth £25m, each flat, £6m, the rent at just 1% return would be £5k a month.

This leads me to three questions:

1) Do people really pay sixty grand a year just to live in a flat? (essential northerner question)
2) Why would a landlord keep an investment that only returns 1% on capital? (I guess capital growth would explain that in recent years?)
3) Why would the OP be getting his knickers in a twist over an amount that is only around 3% of his monthly rent?

I guess he never paid 25M for it...

[S1MMA]

Just to respond to all above, I totally take your views on board and thanks for responding.

I agree that the best way to go forward is to have a unilateral agreement between all parties, but the reason I just wanted some extra ammo on this topic (the heat network legislation is perfect) is because B was being overly difficult. I suggested we all have a meeting to sort this face to face, and B refused point blank saying there is nothing to discuss. As he and his tenant are getting what they want (despite disputing the bill) he didn't want to compromise. As fate would have it, B emailed me and A yesterday saying that he is now happy to have a meeting to discuss it all and move forward - so hopefully he will be more reasonable. He has had time to stew and think about it - and I'm sure he has realised he is being unreasonable and unfair.

I asked the question because I didn't see a resolution as B had dig his heels in - I appreciate the "more hassle than it's worth" comments, but for me to not be able to control my heating does make it more hassle than it's worth to stay here long term. It's always going to create a problem. If under his obligations under the heat network legislation he needs to sort the system out - then I don't have a problem to stay here.

In terms of the percentage of rent etc, whilst I agree it's small amounts in the scheme of things - you all need to realise that if you feel aggrieved or forced to pay for something that you have not agreed to and are not benefitting from - it still stings to have to pay for it. If you are a stress free easy going type that has multiple direct debits to ransoms for no good reason, I salute you - I'm not so care free and it would annoy me. When it's down to another party that can change or improve the situation then why not engage in some dialogue with them?

Anyway, I think his willingness to now talk and the heat network legislation should be enough for B and A to agree to change the system. Here's hoping anyway.

[S1MMA]

superlightr said:

OP - whats the EPC rating for your property and whats the estimated heating costs that are shown on the EPC?

It's E52 - shows as £625 a year.

[S1MMA]

Steve H said:

I may be mis-estimating numbers here but if this building is worth £25m, each flat, £6m, the rent at just 1% return would be £5k a month.

This leads me to three questions:

1) Do people really pay sixty grand a year just to live in a flat? (essential northerner question)
2) Why would a landlord keep an investment that only returns 1% on capital? (I guess capital growth would explain that in recent years?)
3) Why would the OP be getting his knickers in a twist over an amount that is only around 3% of his monthly rent?

Steve, just to go through your points:

1) there are properties on my road up for £20k a week to rent. People spend obscene amounts of money to rent - it can work out better for them than buying (work out the stamp duty cost alone on a £10m property) they get to live where they want and it's flexible. If you can afford it, why not.

2) it doesn't work that way for most people. Old money - most people that rent out flats this way have inherited these properties that have been in their family for decades, if not more than a century. The house I live in was bought in the early 60's for £23k - and had been with them ever since. so they don't think about yield the same way you or I may do. It's all money for (nearly) nothing for them. It's their shopping money. The people with the liquid wealth to buy these sorts of properties aren't letting out the top 2 floors! Both our neighbors live in the whole house themselves, with basement conversions, swimming pools, all the cars etc. Quite a difference.

3) ok, take 3% of your rent/mortgage and send it over to me. No questions asked. It's a small amount for you - so there should be no problem? If you were short changed in KFC would you just think - it's only a quid - fk it? Only you know the answer to this.

The bottom line is: if this doesn't get fixed I will move, so why not at least try to get a resolution. Learned a bit about some legislation from the good folk on here also so not all bad eh.

[Vaud]

You have 2 risks here.

1 ) They do the work and recover the costs by raising your rent

2 ) As 1) but they serve you notice as well as they figure they can get a much higher rent anyhow.

[Steve H]

joe_90 said:

I guess he never paid 25M for it...

I'm sure you're right but if he (they) could sell if for £25m and get a much bigger return without the OP chasing him round the block over heating bills, why wouldn't he? Is the capital growth not likely to have peaked and even risk reducing or is barmy just going to get barmier?

OP, I understand your point about being able to get it fixed but relative to the amounts you are arguing over (and the kind of salary I assume you are on), i wouldn't be worrying too much about it TBH, life's too short.


ETA, we cross-posted there.

I take your points about the way people run these places, just seems odd to some of us that don't live in that bubble.

Send you 3%? I don't remember agreeing to that or signing any contracts .


If it's an easy fix then by all means fix it, all I'm saying is that you could easily spend a lot more than the few hundred quid on solicitors fees and your own time.

Equally, moving to what I gather would be a more expensive place to avoid a small amount that you are annoyed about seems a bit daft.

Edited by Steve H on Saturday 6th February 09:57

[JacquesMesrine]

S1MMA said:

Steve, just to go through your points:

1) there are properties on my road up for £20k a week to rent. People spend obscene amounts of money to rent - it can work out better for them than buying (work out the stamp duty cost alone on a £10m property) they get to live where they want and it's flexible. If you can afford it, why not.

2) it doesn't work that way for most people. Old money - most people that rent out flats this way have inherited these properties that have been in their family for decades, if not more than a century. The house I live in was bought in the early 60's for £23k - and had been with them ever since. so they don't think about yield the same way you or I may do. It's all money for (nearly) nothing for them. It's their shopping money. The people with the liquid wealth to buy these sorts of properties aren't letting out the top 2 floors! Both our neighbors live in the whole house themselves, with basement conversions, swimming pools, all the cars etc. Quite a difference.

3) ok, take 3% of your rent/mortgage and send it over to me. No questions asked. It's a small amount for you - so there should be no problem? If you were short changed in KFC would you just think - it's only a quid - fk it? Only you know the answer to this.

The bottom line is: if this doesn't get fixed I will move, so why not at least try to get a resolution. Learned a bit about some legislation from the good folk on here also so not all bad eh.

£20k a week rent? £1million a year to rent and you think that makes sense to avoid Stamp Duty on a £25m house? Well I'm baffled.

You pay £5000pcm (as an estimate based on the thread so far), others will be paying £90000pcm. Even accounting for then having the whole house and you only a quarter of it, the maths is hugely in your favour. Where are you going to move to, that will give you the opportunity to live in such a prestigious way for so much under the market rate? Think about it, you're risking c£15000pcm over £150pm.

That's where the comment around sociopathic tendencies came from. He didn't call you a sociopath, although that's not really an insult anyway.

[TooMany2cvs]

Look, S1MMA - if you think the contract's unfair, then take it to court. If the judge agrees with you, then the contract was unfair.

Until that point, you are contractually obliged to pay half.

Your decision.

[austinsmirk]

It'd be cheaper for you to put yr own combi boiler in, connected to existing rads.

Obviously you need a separate gas meter.

Depends how long you want to live there of course.

[MW-M5]

S1MMA said:

1) there are properties on my road up for £20k a week to rent. People spend obscene amounts of money to rent - it can work out better for them than buying (work out the stamp duty cost alone on a £10m property) they get to live where they want and it's flexible. If you can afford it, why not.

Stamp duty would be payable on this level of rent though!

http://prsupdate.co.uk/2014/04/stamp-duty-land-tax...

So on a rent of £million a year, the stamp duty will be 1% of £875000 = £8750 per year.

[BobSaunders]

OP - i agree with you. Why should you have to pay for something if you do not use it or need it?

There appears to be a belief on here that if you can afford it, you should suck it up and pay for it - totally wrong approach in my opinion, and totally unbelievable.

Me? I only have my heating on for one hour in the morning - 4am-5am, i leave at 530am. Then one hour at 6-7pm so it is warm before i arrive home. It then goes on again for half an hour usually around 9-10pm. The thermostat/heating kicks in if it goes below 10 degrees. I am not someone to sit around the house with shorts and t-shirt, thick socks and comfy warm clothes during winter. Luckily it is a new build so it retains the heat and i have installed remote heating (hive) so i can easily adjust it. Just my approach.

Good luck OP, sounds like it may be a matter of speaking to the landlords, or getting the contract resigned, or speaking to a solicitor, or moving on.

[stuthemong]

Looks like good progress.

The other fallback you could go for, all radiators on full and windows open during the day.

Then graph the gas usage and show the guy downstairs.

He's got no motivation to not split the bill when he's the expensive side of the game, if he sees his bill go up 200% he ay be motivated to push for split billing too.

Of course this means you'll have a whopping bill too for a month, but it makes the point and may provide a catalyst for change!