Being detained & your rights?

[voyds9]

If they annoyed me that much I would try a FOI request for their body cam footage of the incident.

Not to do anything with it, just to cause them the hassle of retrieving it.

Could be a well spent £10

[pavarotti1980]

voyds9 said:

If they annoyed me that much I would try a FOI request for their body cam footage of the incident.

Not to do anything with it, just to cause them the hassle of retrieving it.

Could be a well spent £10

I think you mean Subject Access Request. And if they have no retained information then a waste of £10.

I couldnt be bothered with the hassle to be honest

[Derek Smith]

cbmotorsport said:

The police have to deal with all sorts of bell ends, and with so many about I really cannot blame them for going into situations slightly on the offensive. They're probably expecting grief with a good percentage of their interactions with the general public.

I can. It is likely to make the situation worse, it is a barrier to information and, most importantly, it is easy enough to be more forceful if the need arises but it is more difficult to calm things. It is easy enough to get most people on side. In the situation you describe, the first officers could have said, 'Sorry to bother you but we've had a spate of motorcycle thefts of late (a pretty bland and impossible to disprove statement because it is true) and we're just checking everyone.'

As for not being petrolheads, I know a bit about bikes and I used to ask pretty stupid questions, such as 'What's a green meanie?' Once you do that the keen bikers will bore you rigid and the dodgy ones will try to sell you a line.

I wanted to say to a BMW twin owner, 'Doesn't having the cylinder sticking out the side unbalance it a bit?' but the opportunity never arose.

Also, and just as important as the practical reasons, the public deserves to be treated as nice people until there's information to suggest they are not, and even then you should consider being pleasant.

I was 'taken to one side' by an experienced bobby when I was a probationer and told what I'd done wrong. The situation didn't get out of hand, but it needed intervention of someone with a bit of sense. I knew I was rubbish so followed the instruction next stop and the difference was remarkable.

[Paul Dishman]

Wise words, Derek. The "attitude test" cuts both ways

[aka_kerrly]

Vaud said:

xjay1337 said:

Your average curtain twitcher or copper won't know that the S1000r that was reported stolen sounds very different to your Honda Sp2 or whatever..

Agreed. They aren't all petrol heads!

Absolutely, although I don't think it is unreasonable for a traffic officer to know a bit about the various forms of transport which they have jurisdiction over and be able to determine if for example a report of a crosser being ridden by a tt could possibly be a old bloke on a 1000cc a few miles down the road.

As others have said though , the police have now given you and your bikes a once over and you've not been charged with anything so perhaps in the future the information they obtained could be very beneficial to you both!

[Birky_41]

Derek Smith said:

I can. It is likely to make the situation worse, it is a barrier to information and, most importantly, it is easy enough to be more forceful if the need arises but it is more difficult to calm things. It is easy enough to get most people on side. In the situation you describe, the first officers could have said, 'Sorry to bother you but we've had a spate of motorcycle thefts of late (a pretty bland and impossible to disprove statement because it is true) and we're just checking everyone.'

As for not being petrolheads, I know a bit about bikes and I used to ask pretty stupid questions, such as 'What's a green meanie?' Once you do that the keen bikers will bore you rigid and the dodgy ones will try to sell you a line.

I wanted to say to a BMW twin owner, 'Doesn't having the cylinder sticking out the side unbalance it a bit?' but the opportunity never arose.

Also, and just as important as the practical reasons, the public deserves to be treated as nice people until there's information to suggest they are not, and even then you should consider being pleasant.

I was 'taken to one side' by an experienced bobby when I was a probationer and told what I'd done wrong. The situation didn't get out of hand, but it needed intervention of someone with a bit of sense. I knew I was rubbish so followed the instruction next stop and the difference was remarkable.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I would've much preferred something like this

[Markbarry1977]

Vaud said:

Bigends said:

Not sure about the holding the keys to ransom bit

The officer had reasonable grounds to hold on to the keys until checks could be made?

Given so many places don't pursue bikes, it's not unreasonable?

While it might not be unreasonable but a genuine question here is it legal. Can the police demand you hand over your keys on initial contact or do they have to arrest you first.

[Vaud]

Markbarry1977 said:

While it might not be unreasonable but a genuine question here is it legal. Can the police demand you hand over your keys on initial contact or do they have to arrest you first.

IANAL.

If they ask, "would you mind giving me your keys while we run some checks?" then it is voluntary...?
If it is snatching the keys without permission, then no?

[4rephill]

The thing that gets completely forgotten during any Police stop is that you have no idea what they might have been dealing with prior to stopping you.

For example, if they've have had a whole shift of dealing with people who talk to them like they are the scum of the Earth, and show the sort of disrespect and hatred of the Police that we see in this very forum on a daily basis, then is it really any surprise that they might approach a situation such as the OP's in an aggressive manner?

Yes you can argue that that goes with the job, and that they should be more professional and not allow it to affect them, but I defy anyone to put up with the sort of st that they have to, and deal with some of the incidents/people that they have to, and not be affected by it at all in any way shape or form!

And why do so many people take being stopped by the Police so personally? At the end of the day, they're are just ordinary people doing a difficult, and at times, highly stressful job.


The Police take your keys off you during a stop to ensure you can't drive/ride off and create a pursuit situation? Boo fking hoo! - It's not exactly the end of the World!

Frankly, as I see it, this is all a fuss over nothing!

[Markbarry1977]

4rephill said:

The thing that gets completely forgotten during any Police stop is that you have no idea what they might have been dealing with prior to stopping you.

For example, if they've have had a whole shift of dealing with people who talk to them like they are the scum of the Earth, and show the sort of disrespect and hatred of the Police that we see in this very forum on a daily basis, then is it really any surprise that they might approach a situation such as the OP's in an aggressive manner?

Yes you can argue that that goes with the job, and that they should be more professional and not allow it to affect them, but I defy anyone to put up with the sort of st that they have to, and deal with some of the incidents/people that they have to, and not be affected by it at all in any way shape or form!

And why do so many people take being stopped by the Police so personally? At the end of the day, they're are just ordinary people doing a difficult, and at times, highly stressful job.


The Police take your keys off you during a stop to ensure you can't drive/ride off and create a pursuit situation? Boo fking hoo! - It's not exactly the end of the World!

Frankly, as I see it, this is all a fuss over nothing!

Personally I have no problem with being stopped by the police. If they ask for the keys politely then I would hand them over and be respectful to them. Come running up at me and try and grab my keys or start gobbing of demanding them and my response will be a lot less polite and I would refuse. Arrest me if you need to buy I am sure as hell going to go and raise an official complaint and make the police officers life as difficult as I can.

How you treat me is how I will treat you. Lesson learn from my grandad who was a true gentlemen and one I am pleased to say he passed on to me.

I appreciate they have to deal with scrotes all day but that's not my problem. If you can't be professional then do a different job to a police officer.

[jogger1976]

Markbarry1977 said:

4rephill said:

The thing that gets completely forgotten during any Police stop is that you have no idea what they might have been dealing with prior to stopping you.

For example, if they've have had a whole shift of dealing with people who talk to them like they are the scum of the Earth, and show the sort of disrespect and hatred of the Police that we see in this very forum on a daily basis, then is it really any surprise that they might approach a situation such as the OP's in an aggressive manner?

Yes you can argue that that goes with the job, and that they should be more professional and not allow it to affect them, but I defy anyone to put up with the sort of st that they have to, and deal with some of the incidents/people that they have to, and not be affected by it at all in any way shape or form!

And why do so many people take being stopped by the Police so personally? At the end of the day, they're are just ordinary people doing a difficult, and at times, highly stressful job.


The Police take your keys off you during a stop to ensure you can't drive/ride off and create a pursuit situation? Boo fking hoo! - It's not exactly the end of the World!

Frankly, as I see it, this is all a fuss over nothing!

Personally I have no problem with being stopped by the police. If they ask for the keys politely then I would hand them over and be respectful to them. Come running up at me and try and grab my keys or start gobbing of demanding them and my response will be a lot less polite and I would refuse. Arrest me if you need to buy I am sure as hell going to go and raise an official complaint and make the police officers life as difficult as I can.

How you treat me is how I will treat you. Lesson learn from my grandad who was a true gentlemen and one I am pleased to say he passed on to me.

I appreciate they have to deal with scrotes all day but that's not my problem. If you can't be professional then do a different job to a police officer.

Absolutely this.
I've got a huge amount of respect for the police.
God knows they have an almost impossible job these days. And I totally understand that a 12 hour shift dealing with the dregs of society would make every the most laid back person a little tetchy.
What I won't tolerate is PC Billy Big bks being rude, aggressive and confrontational when I'm behaving in a calm and cooperative manner.
The police would do well to remember that a lot of the I'll feeling rests with officers who behave in this manner.

[Alpinestars]

Markbarry1977 said:

Vaud said:

Bigends said:

Not sure about the holding the keys to ransom bit

The officer had reasonable grounds to hold on to the keys until checks could be made?

Given so many places don't pursue bikes, it's not unreasonable?

While it might not be unreasonable but a genuine question here is it legal. Can the police demand you hand over your keys on initial contact or do they have to arrest you first.

No, in short.

[Vaud]

Alpinestars said:

No, in short.

Can they ask you to surrender them temporarily and voluntarily?

[Bigends]

Vaud said:

Alpinestars said:

No, in short.

Can they ask you to surrender them temporarily and voluntarily?

They can ask whatever they like - its down to you if you hand them over or not - I wouldnt - just pocket them - theyre no risk to anybody then-however, some may up the request to a demand - with no power to do so, in which case its a matter of standing your ground and politely declining - giving no grounds for them to escalate matters due to your behaviour.

[Birky_41]

jogger1976 said:

Absolutely this.
I've got a huge amount of respect for the police.
God knows they have an almost impossible job these days. And I totally understand that a 12 hour shift dealing with the dregs of society would make every the most laid back person a little tetchy.
What I won't tolerate is PC Billy Big bks being rude, aggressive and confrontational when I'm behaving in a calm and cooperative manner.
The police would do well to remember that a lot of the I'll feeling rests with officers who behave in this manner.

And a +1 from me too. This is basically what bothered me hence the post

I'll be polite and patient but be the same initially as all they did was aggravate me

[Alpinestars]

Vaud said:

Alpinestars said:

No, in short.

Can they ask you to surrender them temporarily and voluntarily?

They can ask you whatever they like, but a simple stop gives them no rights other than to ask your name, address and date of birth. And require you to produce certain documents, which in any case can be provided within 7 days.

They can search vehicles in certain circumstances - suspicion of crimes etc, or under stop and search, which has a formal procedure.

A PC, who has not been authorised under the RTA, cannot check a vehicle for defects without authorisation from the driver, so shouldn't be touching the vehicle at all.

That's based on a quick read of the law.

Edited by Alpinestars on Saturday 24th June 22:17

[R1 Dave]

Alpinestars said:

Vaud said:

Alpinestars said:

No, in short.

Can they ask you to surrender them temporarily and voluntarily?

They can ask you whatever they like, but a simple stop gives them no rights other than to ask your name, address and date of birth. And require you to produce certain documents, which in any case can be provided within 7 days.

They can search vehicles in certain circumstances - suspicion of crimes etc, or under stop and search, which has a formal procedure.

A PC, who has not been authorised under the RTA, cannot check a vehicle for defects without authorisation from the driver, so shouldn't be touching the vehicle at all.

That's based on a quick read of the law.

Edited by Alpinestars on Saturday 24th June 22:17

I think your interpretation is a little off. Whilst there is indeed a 'vehicle examiner' qualification and those qualified can perform a full and comprehensive exam for defects (commonly conducted after an RTC to establish or dispute a cause) any officer can check your vehicle over to check its roadworthy (tyres, bulbs etc).

[R1 Dave]

4rephill said:

The thing that gets completely forgotten during any Police stop is that you have no idea what they might have been dealing with prior to stopping you.

For example, if they've have had a whole shift of dealing with people who talk to them like they are the scum of the Earth, and show the sort of disrespect and hatred of the Police that we see in this very forum on a daily basis, then is it really any surprise that they might approach a situation such as the OP's in an aggressive manner?

Yes you can argue that that goes with the job, and that they should be more professional and not allow it to affect them, but I defy anyone to put up with the sort of st that they have to, and deal with some of the incidents/people that they have to, and not be affected by it at all in any way shape or form!

And why do so many people take being stopped by the Police so personally? At the end of the day, they're are just ordinary people doing a difficult, and at times, highly stressful job.


The Police take your keys off you during a stop to ensure you can't drive/ride off and create a pursuit situation? Boo fking hoo! - It's not exactly the end of the World!

Frankly, as I see it, this is all a fuss over nothing!

Whilst it's refreshing to see someone being supportive of the police on here, I disagree that it's acceptable to treat people badly because you've dealt with a gobshiite earlier in the shift - every interaction with the public is an opportunity to create a good impression. If they prove themselves to be obstructive, abusive etc then adjust your own attitude if required but at least start out being respectful and pleasant, otherwise all you're doing is adding another name to the list of people who are anti-police.

Just MHO.

[Alpinestars]

R1 Dave said:

Alpinestars said:

Vaud said:

Alpinestars said:

No, in short.

Can they ask you to surrender them temporarily and voluntarily?

They can ask you whatever they like, but a simple stop gives them no rights other than to ask your name, address and date of birth. And require you to produce certain documents, which in any case can be provided within 7 days.

They can search vehicles in certain circumstances - suspicion of crimes etc, or under stop and search, which has a formal procedure.

A PC, who has not been authorised under the RTA, cannot check a vehicle for defects without authorisation from the driver, so shouldn't be touching the vehicle at all.

That's based on a quick read of the law.

Edited by Alpinestars on Saturday 24th June 22:17

I think your interpretation is a little off. Whilst there is indeed a 'vehicle examiner' qualification and those qualified can perform a full and comprehensive exam for defects (commonly conducted after an RTC to establish or dispute a cause) any officer can check your vehicle over to check its roadworthy (tyres, bulbs etc).

Whilst I'm happy to be corrected, I can't find anything in the RTA 1988 which gives these powers. Also some forces issue guidelines for PCs, as an example, Derbyshire guidlines specifically state that unless and officer is authorised under S67 from memory, their should not examine a vehicle without the consent of the driver/owner.

Can you point me to the law which allows any kind of inspection by a "common or garden" PC please?

[R1 Dave]

You don't need any qualification to deal with defects which are 'obvious' such as bald tyres etc. You could argue it doesn't need any 'examination' as they're clear to see!

This is my understanding, I'll accept it isn't my particular area of expertise so I could be incorrect.