Wales again 1.5metres filming

[Graveworm]

BMWBen said:

Generally sensible comments, but there's an unfortunate contradiction there at the end.

Anybody who uses the road in any vehicle/animal/transportation device including shoes ultimately inconveniences other users of the road. Every time you drive your car you (and I) are inconveniencing others.

So it ultimately comes down to: do I accept that inconvenience or not. You generally wouldn't even consider that the car in front of you is doing such a thing, or that you were doing it yourself because of your biases about what you think the roads are for, but the fact is, other cars and your car all contribute to a slower journey for everyone. So to complain about a bike not using a cycle lane whilst you are using the road yourself (for whatever purpose) is probably rather hypocritical if you're not also complaining about the other cars and yourself.

If I was holding up traffic in my car or on my bike I would pull over. If on a bike I would use the cycle lane. It's a balance, if you look at how many people are affected and by how much a reasonable person can decide if what they are doing is really worth what the trouble they are causing,

[BMWBen]

Graveworm said:

BMWBen said:

Generally sensible comments, but there's an unfortunate contradiction there at the end.

Anybody who uses the road in any vehicle/animal/transportation device including shoes ultimately inconveniences other users of the road. Every time you drive your car you (and I) are inconveniencing others.

So it ultimately comes down to: do I accept that inconvenience or not. You generally wouldn't even consider that the car in front of you is doing such a thing, or that you were doing it yourself because of your biases about what you think the roads are for, but the fact is, other cars and your car all contribute to a slower journey for everyone. So to complain about a bike not using a cycle lane whilst you are using the road yourself (for whatever purpose) is probably rather hypocritical if you're not also complaining about the other cars and yourself.

If I was holding up traffic in my car or on my bike I would pull over. If on a bike I would use the cycle lane. It's a balance, if you look at how many people are affected and by how much a reasonable person can decide if what they are doing is really worth what the trouble they are causing,

So would I... but it sort of misses the point. Very few drivers will pull over to let someone past, so to berate cyclists for acting in exactly the same way is not very fair.

Also the open road is not where you cause inconvenience in a car, it's at the end of the open road. If there's a whole bunch of you sitting in a queue (even for a traffic light or roundabout), you are part of the inconvenience to everyone else in the same queue. You don't berate yourself for causing a problem when that happens. The cyclist who has chosen to use the open road causes a delay that's less than a rounding error in your journey time, and their choice to do so is just as valid as yours. When you get to the roundabout at the end of the road and you have to wait while 5 cars go round it from your right, you've just experienced a much bigger delay in your journey than the one the cyclist caused. If you have to wait in a queue before reaching the roundabout then we're talking orders of magnitude larger.

So why is the minor delay being complained about, and the major one not?

[yellowjack]

BMWBen said:

So would I... but it sort of misses the point. Very few drivers will pull over to let someone past, so to berate cyclists for acting in exactly the same way is not very fair.

Also the open road is not where you cause inconvenience in a car, it's at the end of the open road. If there's a whole bunch of you sitting in a queue (even for a traffic light or roundabout), you are part of the inconvenience to everyone else in the same queue. You don't berate yourself for causing a problem when that happens. The cyclist who has chosen to use the open road causes a delay that's less than a rounding error in your journey time, and their choice to do so is just as valid as yours. When you get to the roundabout at the end of the road and you have to wait while 5 cars go round it from your right, you've just experienced a much bigger delay in your journey than the one the cyclist caused. If you have to wait in a queue before reaching the roundabout then we're talking orders of magnitude larger.

So why is the minor delay being complained about, and the major one not?

"They" will never get it, no matter how few words you use to explain it.

Brings to mind being tooted at on a narrow country road by some Doris in a convertible Mini. She got her knickers well and truly twisted while I was heading uphill "delaying" her. Only I had no option to move over, until I got to the top of the small hill, where I'd planned to move over into a farm gateway to allow her past whether she'd tooted at me or not. Then, heading down the other side it's a longer, more gradual descent. I caught her half-way along it as she was slowly creeping along the road that by now was barely wide enough to drive without scraping mirrors on brambles. Despite a number of similar gateways where she could have pulled in to let me past, she didn't. When I pointed to a passing place up ahead, she gave me the middle finger. So now, on that road, I'm not going to move over again "because I don't want to be delayed"...

[Toltec]

yellowjack said:

"They" will never get it, no matter how few words you use to explain it.

Brings to mind being tooted at on a narrow country road by some Doris in a convertible Mini. She got her knickers well and truly twisted while I was heading uphill "delaying" her. Only I had no option to move over, until I got to the top of the small hill, where I'd planned to move over into a farm gateway to allow her past whether she'd tooted at me or not. Then, heading down the other side it's a longer, more gradual descent. I caught her half-way along it as she was slowly creeping along the road that by now was barely wide enough to drive without scraping mirrors on brambles. Despite a number of similar gateways where she could have pulled in to let me past, she didn't. When I pointed to a passing place up ahead, she gave me the middle finger. So now, on that road, I'm not going to move over again "because I don't want to be delayed"...

I used to get something similar on a country lane I commuted on. A car would sneak past on a wider section then almost immediately need to stop due to an oncoming car and therefore hold me up too. Of course they could not know another car was coming so it isn't deliberate, just one of those things.

[Ares]

yellowjack said:

"They" will never get it, no matter how few words you use to explain it.

Brings to mind being tooted at on a narrow country road by some Doris in a convertible Mini. She got her knickers well and truly twisted while I was heading uphill "delaying" her. Only I had no option to move over, until I got to the top of the small hill, where I'd planned to move over into a farm gateway to allow her past whether she'd tooted at me or not. Then, heading down the other side it's a longer, more gradual descent. I caught her half-way along it as she was slowly creeping along the road that by now was barely wide enough to drive without scraping mirrors on brambles. Despite a number of similar gateways where she could have pulled in to let me past, she didn't. When I pointed to a passing place up ahead, she gave me the middle finger. So now, on that road, I'm not going to move over again "because I don't want to be delayed"...

Common occurrence on fast, twisty downhills.

I'm often a "lunatic that deserves to die" if I catch a car downhill (eg, 50mph Cat'n'Fiddle)....but it's fine for them to subsequently overtake me when I'm doing 30mph in the 30mph section.


It's also driver education/confidence. I had a Toyota Aygo behind me for 3.5km this morning. NSL road, but twisty in places. I was doing 33-36kph and kept waving her past on longer straights. I the end I pulled over and let her, and the dozen of so cars behind her past, (only to then get a waved fist from her...?)

[MikeGoodwin]

I probably do give them 1.5m thinking about it. Seems a safe distance, its not all that much.

They are a fking nuisance though. How is it they can undertake you in traffic (while you're moving I might add) with hardly any space at all? And then you're ment to give them 1.5 m?

[V8RX7]

BMWBen said:

So would I... but it sort of misses the point. Very few drivers will pull over to let someone past, so to berate cyclists for acting in exactly the same way is not very fair.

Except not many cars are travelling at 15-30mph on an NSL road.

[Ares]

MikeGoodwin said:

I probably do give them 1.5m thinking about it. Seems a safe distance, its not all that much.

They are a fking nuisance though. How is it they can undertake you in traffic (while you're moving I might add) with hardly any space at all? And then you're ment to give them 1.5 m?

Think about it for a second.....

[Ares]

V8RX7 said:

BMWBen said:

So would I... but it sort of misses the point. Very few drivers will pull over to let someone past, so to berate cyclists for acting in exactly the same way is not very fair.

Except not many cars are travelling at 15-30mph on an NSL road.

You think? I'd day at least 50% of my time on the road to my gym (a NSL single carriageway), I'm stuck behind someone doing c30mph.

You can also get past a bike doing 15mph a LOT easier than a car doing 30mph.

[Graveworm]

Ares said:

You think? I'd day at least 50% of my time on the road to my gym (a NSL single carriageway), I'm stuck behind someone doing c30mph.

You can also get past a bike doing 15mph a LOT easier than a car doing 30mph.

They both are no issue if I can pass. If I can't and its only me being held up then it's still not really an issue. If either of them are holding up traffic for any length of time then the decent and safest thing to do is find a way to let them pass. In a car it would be a good way to inconsiderate driving.

[Derek Smith]

I've spent a few days in Devon. There were quite a few cyclists.

I passed them in the way I was taught: imagine they are a car. I was frequently waved at by cyclists as a think you. I hung back behind a cyclist on a twisty bit of road where there was no view of oncoming traffic. It was no longer than 500 metres. When the road straightened the chap waved me past and then stuck up his thumb. I wondered if complying with the law was so unusual was worth the acknowledgement.

What did irritate to an extent was the number of people who refuse to cross double whites when they are used for traffic management rather than a dangerous location.

[Dammit]

Derek Smith said:

When the road straightened the chap waved me past and then stuck up his thumb. I wondered if complying with the law was so unusual was worth the acknowledgement.

Very rare, I always wave when someone does so.

[Tom _M]

MikeGoodwin said:

I probably do give them 1.5m thinking about it. Seems a safe distance, its not all that much.

They are a fking nuisance though. How is it they can undertake you in traffic (while you're moving I might add) with hardly any space at all? And then you're ment to give them 1.5 m?

Think of a busy car park and you're running between the rows of parked (or slowly moving if you like) cars. Now imagine standing on the central white line of a dual carriageway with cars passing you very close and fast. That's the difference.

[Pothole]

james7 said:

I can see a few badly thought out things...

I assume...

Ahem

[surveyor_101]

timbo999 said:

Cars weigh 1500kg and do 30/40/50/60 mph, cycles weigh 100kg and do 10/15/20/25 mph - you work it out...

Also to drive a car you have to be qualified enough to hold a car licence, to ride a bike you need no qualifications. So the driver is always held to a higher standard.

If passing a cyclist you hit them with your car there is a significant chance of serious injury, the cyclist had no choice in the decision to overtake.

If a cyclist passing a car which is moving slowly or in stationary happens to wobble the chance of injury is less so and they also had a choice in the manoeuvre.

Que the insurance and road tax ( vehicle excise duty) brigade making excuses for poor driving around cyclist as they pay good money for the privilege of using the roads.

[chow pan toon]

Dammit said:

Derek Smith said:

When the road straightened the chap waved me past and then stuck up his thumb. I wondered if complying with the law was so unusual was worth the acknowledgement.

Very rare, I always wave when someone does so.

I always wave past and acknowledge people who've held back. To be fair it is fairly common round here but a bit of positive reinforcement is never a bad thing.

[C70R]

yonex said:

It’s positive in a way, but a wholesale change of attitude is what’s needed in respect to cyclists in the UK.

Passing a cyclist at speed at less than a metre isn’t very smart, but happens to me all the time.

I'd go so far as to remove "in a way" from your post.
People who think it's OK to closely pass a moving object that weighs ~5% of them and could be moving at 30mph less than them need help...

[Ares]

Graveworm said:

Ares said:

You think? I'd day at least 50% of my time on the road to my gym (a NSL single carriageway), I'm stuck behind someone doing c30mph.

You can also get past a bike doing 15mph a LOT easier than a car doing 30mph.

They both are no issue if I can pass. If I can't and its only me being held up then it's still not really an issue. If either of them are holding up traffic for any length of time then the decent and safest thing to do is find a way to let them pass. In a car it would be a good way to inconsiderate driving.

And significantly more cyclists will pull over in that circumstance than Doris doing 25mph in her Hyundai.

[Ares]

Derek Smith said:

I've spent a few days in Devon. There were quite a few cyclists.

I passed them in the way I was taught: imagine they are a car. I was frequently waved at by cyclists as a think you. I hung back behind a cyclist on a twisty bit of road where there was no view of oncoming traffic. It was no longer than 500 metres. When the road straightened the chap waved me past and then stuck up his thumb. I wondered if complying with the law was so unusual was worth the acknowledgement.

What did irritate to an extent was the number of people who refuse to cross double whites when they are used for traffic management rather than a dangerous location.

I ALWAYS acknowledge a driver that has been behind me for even a couple of seconds and made a safe pass. I'll also wave them past if I can see further up a road than they can. Wagon drivers are probably some of the most courteous, most will give a reciprocal 'toot'. Nice to be nice.