B road hooning, technically illegal?

[Ron99]

JonDerz said:

...... Why does spirited driving have to involved exceeding speed limits? Is going round bends at 60 not spirited enough?...

On most of the B roads I know, even the best drivers in the most capable cars would not be able to maintain anything close to the posted speed limit through many of the corners.
Taking such corners at anything close to the speed limit would be reckless because you'd be lucky not to end up in the bushes or ditch due to limitations of turning circle or lateral grip.

[vonhosen]

JonDerz said:

vonhosen said:

Driving around always within the speed limits & always being able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear (& reasonably expect to remain so) on your side of the road, is..................well, just driving. Be it for fun or any other reason.

I did ask what hooning meant to you and asked questions for some further reasoning, don’t see any problem there?

The part quoted would suggest that all forms of hooning, spirited driving or whatever you want to call it is illegal then if that were the case.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on our definitions

Hooning & spirited driving wouldn't mean driving in excess of the speed limits at all times (because again that would invariably result in careless/dangerous driving), but you would also invariably encounter places within that drive where you could safely exceed the speed limits. If you didn't when it was possible to safely do so then you wouldn't be hooning or driving in a spirited fashion (in my book).

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 21st April 22:05

[JonDerz]

Ron99 said:

On most of the B roads I know, even the best drivers in the most capable cars would not be able to maintain anything close to the posted speed limit through many of the corners.
Taking such corners at anything close to the speed limit would be reckless because you'd be lucky not to end up in the bushes or ditch due to limitations of turning circle or lateral grip.

Differing B roads. Some B roads I would agree, others I don’t, depends on the individual road. The point was exceeding the speed limit doesn’t mean it’s not spirited enough in my opinion anyway.

[JonDerz]

vonhosen said:

Hooning & spirited driving wouldn't mean driving in excess of the speed limits at all times (because gain that would invariably result in careless/dangerous driving), but it you would also invariably encounter places within that drive where you could safely exceed the speed limits. If you didn't when it was possible to safely do so then you wouldn't be hooning or driving in a spirited fashion (in my book).

Okay let’s agree that hooning and spirited driving have many different meanings and leave it at that lol

[vonhosen]

JonDerz said:

vonhosen said:

Hooning & spirited driving wouldn't mean driving in excess of the speed limits at all times (because gain that would invariably result in careless/dangerous driving), but it you would also invariably encounter places within that drive where you could safely exceed the speed limits. If you didn't when it was possible to safely do so then you wouldn't be hooning or driving in a spirited fashion (in my book).

Okay let’s agree that hooning and spirited driving have many different meanings and leave it at that lol

OK

[Centurion07]

JonDerz said:

HedgeyGedgey said:

Its 500bhp and 4inch off the turbo no silencers or boxes, so I presume it was the noise

Noise makes you ripe for a section 59. A friend got one because a traffic officer dealing with another car heard him booting it up a 50 road a few streets away and pulled him over when he drove past them.

Your mate should've got a solicitor onto that.

How in the hell is a police officer able to determine that a car he heard a few streets away is the same car being driven by your mate that happens to drive past thirty seconds later?

Even if it was some rare exotic car with a unique sound there's no way an officer can link the sound he heard to the car driving past a minute or two later.

Unless of course the noise was a constant scream from when first heard all the way until he drove past the officer.

[JonDerz]

Centurion07 said:

Your mate should've got a solicitor onto that.

How in the hell is a police officer able to determine that a car he heard a few streets away is the same car being driven by your mate that happens to drive past thirty seconds later?

Even if it was some rare exotic car with a unique sound there's no way an officer can link the sound he heard to the car driving past a minute or two later.

Unless of course the noise was a constant scream from when first heard all the way until he drove past the officer.

It was gone 11pm and there was no other traffic, the few streets were literally about 20 seconds from where he was booting it, it was a fair collar. He did get away with it in the end as luckily for him the copper didn’t take his address down correctly or something and it ended up getting written off, I can’t remember exactly what happened now. My friend was super jammy though lol. But it was the noise that got him pulled.

[4rephill]

The term "hooning" when based on driving, is usually associated with Australia rather than the UK (makes a change to have an "Australia-ism" enter UK terminology, rather than the more usual Americanisms!), and in Australia, is defined as (From: https://www.qld.gov.au/law/crime-and-police/types-... ):

Hooning

Hooning is the common word we use for any anti-social behaviour conducted in a motor vehicle—a car, van or motorbike—such as speeding, street racing, burnouts and playing loud music from a car stereo.

Hooning includes any number of traffic offences, such as dangerous driving, careless driving, driving without reasonable consideration for other people, driving in a way that makes unnecessary noise or smoke, and racing or conducting speed trials on a public road.

In general terms (in Australia at least), using a motor vehicle for "hooning", is essentially, acting like a tt whilst in control of a motor vehicle.

As far as I see it, driving "in a spirited manner", doesn't mean acting like a twt - "Hooning" on the other hand, does.


There's another couple of issues here, that are being slightly overlooked.

The OP is asking about "hooning" around on a B-road.

1) What is the supposed difference between "hooning" around a B-road, and on an A-road?

Is the fact that it's a B-road supposed to make it somehow more acceptable?

Is it supposed to be less dangerous on a B-road somehow?

2) Which type of B-road is the OP talking about?

I know several B-roads that are wide, two lane, well kept main roads, with long sweeping bends, that were previously A-roads but got down-grounded.

And by the same token, I know several country road B-roads, that are barely one and a half cars wide, poorly maintained, with potholes and patches all over the place, with blind, switchback bends, and loads of hidden farm entrances on them.

Stretches of both roads are NSL, which on the former A-road is no real issue at all, but on the narrow country B-road, despite the NSL limit, it would be simply asking for trouble to try to drive along them at 60mph (oncoming cars in the middle of the road, horse riders, farm vehicles, trucks, cyclists, country lane walkers, etc., etc.)

As far as I'm concerned (based on the Australian interpretation of "hooning"), acting like a twt in a car is the same offence, regardless of what type of road it's being done on!

[caelite]

SD_1 said:

heebeegeetee said:

I would argue that if you’re within speed limits then you’re not hooning at all.

Depends where you are, here in Scotland there are plenty of NSL roads where 60mph is simply not possible by anyone with a hint of sense.

I stick to the rule of "only drive as fast as you can see". Sadly there are plenty of aholes who don't abide by that and ruin it for everyone.

But at the same time, if you have someone come belting up behind you, let them passed, they may be an ahole, but at the same time they may also know something you don't. Used to run a Sprinter all over the highlands, plenty of roads that, once you knew where too look, you could see oncoming traffic through/over hedgerows, particularly at night.

Fortunately a lot of the more touristy roads here have 'please allow for passing' signs, so you have a good point to start flashing like a maniac and nudging their rear bumper.

[av185]

Ron99 said:

1. Can you come to a stop within the distance you can see ahead or round a corner?

2. Can your car reliably stay on its side of the road at the speed you're planning on taking the corner, given the road conditions?

3. Can you resist the urge to aggressively tailgate people who are unable/unwilling to 'press on' who you then consider to be 'in your way'?

Edited by Ron99 on Sunday 21st April 13:07

Ref your second point there is nothing wrong with using the whole road I.e. both sides if traffic and road conditions allow it.

An example would be a series of bends on the above basis and if satisfactory sight lines were possible.

[98elise]

Ron99 said:

1. Can you come to a stop within the distance you can see ahead or round a corner?

2. Can your car reliably stay on its side of the road at the speed you're planning on taking the corner, given the road conditions?

3. Can you resist the urge to aggressively tailgate people who are unable/unwilling to 'press on' who you then consider to be 'in your way'?

Edited by Ron99 on Sunday 21st April 13:07

On a recent pistonheads thread a large proportion of people think that 1. is not how you should drive!

Personally I always dive that way. I live in a semi-rural area and taking corners blind will mean at some point you will hit a horse/tractor/walker etc.

[GetCarter]

GetCarter said:

O/P... I got rid of my old 420 bhp s3 because I felt it was too fast to enjoy on the road and boring to be honest (not exactly renowned for their chassis experience).

Just for the record I didn't post this. Never owned an S3.

[JonDerz]

4rephill said:

The term "hooning" when based on driving, is usually associated with Australia rather than the UK (makes a change to have an "Australia-ism" enter UK terminology, rather than the more usual Americanisms!), and in Australia, is defined as (From: https://www.qld.gov.au/law/crime-and-police/types-... ):

Hooning

Hooning is the common word we use for any anti-social behaviour conducted in a motor vehicle—a car, van or motorbike—such as speeding, street racing, burnouts and playing loud music from a car stereo.

Hooning includes any number of traffic offences, such as dangerous driving, careless driving, driving without reasonable consideration for other people, driving in a way that makes unnecessary noise or smoke, and racing or conducting speed trials on a public road.

In general terms (in Australia at least), using a motor vehicle for "hooning", is essentially, acting like a tt whilst in control of a motor vehicle.

As far as I see it, driving "in a spirited manner", doesn't mean acting like a twt - "Hooning" on the other hand, does.


There's another couple of issues here, that are being slightly overlooked.

The OP is asking about "hooning" around on a B-road.

1) What is the supposed difference between "hooning" around a B-road, and on an A-road?

Is the fact that it's a B-road supposed to make it somehow more acceptable?

Is it supposed to be less dangerous on a B-road somehow?

2) Which type of B-road is the OP talking about?

I know several B-roads that are wide, two lane, well kept main roads, with long sweeping bends, that were previously A-roads but got down-grounded.

And by the same token, I know several country road B-roads, that are barely one and a half cars wide, poorly maintained, with potholes and patches all over the place, with blind, switchback bends, and loads of hidden farm entrances on them.

Stretches of both roads are NSL, which on the former A-road is no real issue at all, but on the narrow country B-road, despite the NSL limit, it would be simply asking for trouble to try to drive along them at 60mph (oncoming cars in the middle of the road, horse riders, farm vehicles, trucks, cyclists, country lane walkers, etc., etc.)

As far as I'm concerned (based on the Australian interpretation of "hooning"), acting like a twt in a car is the same offence, regardless of what type of road it's being done on!

The only part of that I’ll reply to is the reason I “hoon” on B roads is because they’re the roads that I enjoy driving on more than A roads, that’s the simple reason. We’ve literally done the hooning, spirited driving, definitions to death now.

[JonDerz]

GetCarter said:

Just for the record I didn't post this. Never owned an S3.

Yep that was me, no idea what happened there lol

[Ron99]

av185 said:

Ref your second point there is nothing wrong with using the whole road I.e. both sides if traffic and road conditions allow it..

Perhaps, but in my experience, taking bends at a speed which requires using the whole width of the road will put terrific strain on the outer front wheel, to the point of squashing the tyre all the way to the rim and a greatly increased risk of loss of control on a typical uneven B road surface, with absolutely no margin for error.

Then there's the time taken to get back onto your side of the road because a few seconds before you've gone into the corner, then the few seconds through the corner and a few seconds after, you're committed to taking it using the whole width and a lot can change in those several seconds, including a hooner from the other direction.
You'll also have a big problem should someone or something suddenly pulls out/steps out from a field via an unseen gap in a hedge not expecting something to be coming at significant speed on the 'wrong' of the road.

Any time you're unnecessarily on the wrong side of the road, I'd say it would get the interest of the police if they saw it, which was the question asked by the OP.

[anonymous-user]

johnwilliams77 said:

Oh good grief.....

+2 (2, as there is a whole extra page of quoting and arguing since your good grief ) :-)

[V8RX7]

It is certainly possible to be charged with both within the speed limit.

If you've ever been to Magistrates Court or looked at the stats you'll see once there you're pretty much screwed

I was threatened with DWDCA for going around an island at 30 within a 30

"It's a limit not a goal... people aren't expecting...."

Essentially the traffic laws are set, enforced and for the benefit of the old, sick and the lame - roads are not for fun... regardless if it's 5am and you're the only one on it.

Do not expect leniency, nor common sense to be used by a Police Officer nor a Court.

[Repel_Max]

JonDerz said:

...

Whilst on the website I was reading the definitions that are there for careless driving, dangerous driving etc, which got me thinking. Is hooning down B roads careless driving?

Now I’m talking about within the speed limits, so say a 60 road, taking bends at speed. A lot of the general public would say it’s dangerous to take bends faster than 30 lol but what about the law? Is it technically driving below the standard of a competent driving (in the law’s opinion) if you’re going round bends fast? (Within the speed limit)?

Just curious really as it’s made me wonder.

If it is careless or dangerous yes.
The road being an M, A, B, C or U makes no difference apart from the circumstances you may find yourself creating with your “hooning”.
Perhaps you are starting closer to the thresholds for the offences the worse the road gets...but “technically” whatever you mean by that...you can commit the 2 offences by driving like a kunt, I think that’s what “hooning” is, on a B road.

Edited by Repel_Max on Monday 22 April 10:05

[JonDerz]

V8RX7 said:

roads are not for fun... regardless if it's 5am and you're the only one on it.

I agree with what you’re saying in the sense that it’s a public road and it’s main purpose is for transportation, there’s no debating that. However it comes across as some members are suggesting there is no way to have fun on the road without it being illegal. You don’t go for a drive unless you’re going to a destination then? Why does anyone have a renaultsport Megane if they don’t do tracks? A regular petrol Megane will do A to B driving just as well, probably better, much more comfortable. Why does anyone have a hot hatch on the road for that matter? Why do people talk about cooking model Audi’s being dynamically inert compared to say a BMW? Neither is a track car so it doesn’t matter if road driving is simply for A to B.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/why-bmw-m2-best-b...

Motoring publications such as this should be banned for inciting illegal behaviour. B road BLASTER?! Are you crazy Top Gear? No one should ever take the long way home. Is this actually pistonheads? Lol

All I wanted to know is what the law constitutes as careless driving so I know when I go for a spirited drive, on the roads I enjoy, I’m not breaching legality, which I think the first reply summed up well as I’ve mentioned several times. But I’ve decided to sell up and get myself a 1.2 corsa as it’s capable of getting me from A to B and I definitely won’t find it fun.

I know for sure, I will develop a twitch every time I hear the word hoon from now on. Wish I’d never used the word lol

[Graveworm]

Ron99 said:

Perhaps, but in my experience, taking bends at a speed which requires using the whole width of the road will put terrific strain on the outer front wheel, to the point of squashing the tyre all the way to the rim and a greatly increased risk of loss of control on a typical uneven B road surface, with absolutely no margin for error.

Then there's the time taken to get back onto your side of the road because a few seconds before you've gone into the corner, then the few seconds through the corner and a few seconds after, you're committed to taking it using the whole width and a lot can change in those several seconds, including a hooner from the other direction.
You'll also have a big problem should someone or something suddenly pulls out/steps out from a field via an unseen gap in a hedge not expecting something to be coming at significant speed on the 'wrong' of the road.

Any time you're unnecessarily on the wrong side of the road, I'd say it would get the interest of the police if they saw it, which was the question asked by the OP.

I don't get the first part. All other things being equal the force on the tyres etc is a factor of the radius of the turn and the speed. A slower speed at a tighter radius will produce exactly the same "Strain" as a higher speed at a wider radius, but the same speed or even a slightly higher speed will result in less "strain" not more.

If any of the other negative things you mention happen then of course rule 1 was not being followed and would apply equally on a straight road. The difference is not using the full width reduces the distance you can see ahead so less time to deal with it at the same speed.

The Police are perfectly fine with being on the offside of the road where appropriate.

As it stands the police have no exemption from DWDC or dangerous driving and are held to the same standards. The training makes no difference at all in the eyes of the law in that regard so, if they way they drive and are trained. is not DWDC or Dangerous then it is not for anyone,

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 22 April 11:33