1500W E-Bike. You’re nicked.

[anonymous-user]

Because nobody has ever exceeded 40 mph on a bicycle



I’d be more worried about someone not paying attention texting. But let’s not confuse the already muddled

[skwdenyer]

yonex said:

Because nobody has ever exceeded 40 mph on a bicycle



I’d be more worried about someone not paying attention texting. But let’s not confuse the already muddled

Some people seem to want a risk-free world that does not (and IMHO should not) exist. We don't in fact have a shortage of humans, it turns out.

[austinsmirk]

As a cyclist, my biggest problem with cyclists is they fail to make themselves visible to other road users- eg

on fully black carbon bikes, head to toe in black and no lights on. Yr helping no one really !!! I'm not saying start riding around dressed like a traffic light- but give yourselves a chance------ even at this time of the year, I've lights front and back and you can really tell, motorists do spot a flashing front light, as they wait to leap out of junctions and potentially murder you.

e bikes- never tried them- maybe if I'm old/fat/disabled enough one day, they'd keep me on the road. arguably they are a good thing. But I keep seeing young folk on them and really- get a grip- there's no need for it. just get a adequate bike and get some miles in- get fit. I'm no performance athlete, but a 15 mph speed limit would be slower than my average normal speed, (and I live in yorkshire, so its constant vertical hills around here- eg my ride home last night was a total of a 1300' climb in total, over just 10 miles....... that's day in day out with variable routes)

but I never get why so many PH'rs/car drivers hate cyclists so much- end of the day, more bikes on the road does create more space for cars. Its a win win really.

[lyonspride]

austinsmirk said:

but I never get why so many PH'rs/car drivers hate cyclists so much- end of the day, more bikes on the road does create more space for cars. Its a win win really.

The so called BBC has a theory:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130212-why-you-r...

I think it's fairly accurate, but it doesn't mention the important social class element, which is that when your in your vehicle, your vehicle determines your social importance. This is complex mix of different variables, vehicle age, vehicle brand, trim spec, size, etc etc. Drivers, who mostly know nothing about bicycles, simply see cyclists as lower class humans, so when they get in the way it can be seen as a act of defiance and disrespect and can induce anger in the driver.

[RizzoTheRat]

austinsmirk said:

I'm no performance athlete, but a 15 mph speed limit would be slower than my average normal speed, (and I live in yorkshire, so its constant vertical hills around here- eg my ride home last night was a total of a 1300' climb in total, over just 10 miles....... that's day in day out with variable routes).

Its not a 15mph speed limit, is just that you get no electrical boost above 15mph, although some of the older ones are a bit draggy at higher speeds. What it would mean on a ride like you describe is an overall slightly faster average speed as you'd be quicker up the step hills.

[skwdenyer]

RizzoTheRat said:

austinsmirk said:

I'm no performance athlete, but a 15 mph speed limit would be slower than my average normal speed, (and I live in yorkshire, so its constant vertical hills around here- eg my ride home last night was a total of a 1300' climb in total, over just 10 miles....... that's day in day out with variable routes).

Its not a 15mph speed limit, is just that you get no electrical boost above 15mph, although some of the older ones are a bit draggy at higher speeds. What it would mean on a ride like you describe is an overall slightly faster average speed as you'd be quicker up the step hills.

That's true, but it would be better to say something like:

not *only* does the assistance cut off above 15mph, but also the motor is limited to a minimal size unable to help genuinely unfit and/or immobile people onto transport that can help them and get them up a hill...

[MaxFromage]

austinsmirk said:

e bikes- never tried them- maybe if I'm old/fat/disabled enough one day, they'd keep me on the road. arguably they are a good thing. But I keep seeing young folk on them and really- get a grip- there's no need for it. just get a adequate bike and get some miles in- get fit. I'm no performance athlete, but a 15 mph speed limit would be slower than my average normal speed, (and I live in yorkshire, so its constant vertical hills around here- eg my ride home last night was a total of a 1300' climb in total, over just 10 miles....... that's day in day out with variable routes)

Riding a bike is cheating. You should crawl on your hands and knees like I do. You'll be a lot fitter for it.

[the tribester]

e-bikes, I've never tried one, but I'm going to give my troll based opinion anyway.......

[RizzoTheRat]

skwdenyer said:

RizzoTheRat said:

austinsmirk said:

I'm no performance athlete, but a 15 mph speed limit would be slower than my average normal speed, (and I live in yorkshire, so its constant vertical hills around here- eg my ride home last night was a total of a 1300' climb in total, over just 10 miles....... that's day in day out with variable routes).

Its not a 15mph speed limit, is just that you get no electrical boost above 15mph, although some of the older ones are a bit draggy at higher speeds. What it would mean on a ride like you describe is an overall slightly faster average speed as you'd be quicker up the step hills.

That's true, but it would be better to say something like:

not *only* does the assistance cut off above 15mph, but also the motor is limited to a minimal size unable to help genuinely unfit and/or immobile people onto transport that can help them and get them up a hill...

Why is better to say something that's clearly not true?

A standard 250W ebike will cruise past most cyclists on the hills. It'd be interesting to know how fit you'd need to be to sustain even 300w on a normal bike for long.

Looking at a friends strava trace from a time trial last week (only person I know with a power meter), he averaged 250w and his highest power on a segment was 363w. An unfit person on an ebike should therefore be able to put in as much power as a pretty fit hobby cyclist for almost the entire route, but would obviously be slower overall as they're only getting the assistance up to 25kph, but they wouldn't be spending much time below 25kph.

[yellowjack]

MaxFromage said:

Riding a bike is cheating. You should crawl on your hands and knees like I do. You'll be a lot fitter for it.

Do you wear a vest while crawling on your hands and knees? And is broken glass involved at any point? If not...


...ya lightweight! You're cheatin'...


MaxFromage: Hobbies include "looking good in a vest while barefoot" and "throwing sinister German terrorists off tower blocks"?

[MaxFromage]

Naked, yellowjack.


Anything else is cheating.

[Dog Star]

RizzoTheRat said:

austinsmirk said:

I'm no performance athlete, but a 15 mph speed limit would be slower than my average normal speed, (and I live in yorkshire, so its constant vertical hills around here- eg my ride home last night was a total of a 1300' climb in total, over just 10 miles....... that's day in day out with variable routes).

Its not a 15mph speed limit, is just that you get no electrical boost above 15mph, although some of the older ones are a bit draggy at higher speeds. What it would mean on a ride like you describe is an overall slightly faster average speed as you'd be quicker up the step hills.

I go out regularly with a group of mountain bikers round my way (this is off-roading mostly and lots of very steep and technical ascents and descents). These guys are good, do races and ride down quite frankly terrifying stuff and jumps. We do about 20 miles on a Wednesday evening which takes about 3 hours. At no point whatsover on the ride are they even the remotest threat speedwise to my completely legal 250W ebike. I can absolutely waste them up hills if I want (I don't - I turn the power down to eco and ride up with them unless I zoom ahead to take a pic or something), I'm no slower downhill obviously, and same on roads (mine is a Yamaha motor and doesn't suffer "drag" to a great extent when pushing past the limiter). It's heavier and less nimble but the only things where I am not better is down to my relative n00bness. If we were all on ebikes we'd double or triple the distance covered.

It's interesting that these guys who are proper enthusiasts riding top-flight bikes have never made the slightest negative remark about my eMTB and mostly think that the health benefit is similar as you're still spinning away.

Internet trolls who've never tried one can bore off.

[skwdenyer]

RizzoTheRat said:

Why is better to say something that's clearly not true?

A standard 250W ebike will cruise past most cyclists on the hills. It'd be interesting to know how fit you'd need to be to sustain even 300w on a normal bike for long.

Looking at a friends strava trace from a time trial last week (only person I know with a power meter), he averaged 250w and his highest power on a segment was 363w. An unfit person on an ebike should therefore be able to put in as much power as a pretty fit hobby cyclist for almost the entire route, but would obviously be slower overall as they're only getting the assistance up to 25kph, but they wouldn't be spending much time below 25kph.

I think we are at cross purposes here.

I think eBikes (well, those with some power) represent a fantastic opportunity to get people out of cars and onto eBikes for the benefit of everyone.

The problem IMHO is that the eBikes we have (250W limit) don’t achieve that. They are a great way to make cycling easier, but not an incentive to switch.

I take on board everything said here by the keen cyclists, but that’s just it - the keen cyclists will need no persuading to take this up if it suits them.

So we’re clear, I want eBikes available that will carry a large adult up a proper hill without peddling. A “twist and go” such as we had before the EU got involved (!) but with enough power to be viable for far more people.

Even for town-dwellers, an eBike such as I desire will allow one to arrive at a meeting without needing a shower, but without using up resources and as a side effect reinforcing the idea that riding around outside is more healthy.

For the same reason I believe Segways and eScooters should be legal, too, just like reasonably progressive countries. Paris is hardly an alien culture

TL;DR many here seem to think an eBike should be the equivalent of a well-ridden bike; I think it is so much more!

[Gazzas86]

My folks have his/hers E Bikes, they are Cube Touring Hybrid's with the Bosch power pack, i believe its 400Wh option.
Both of their bikes are chipped in such they can go past the 15mph limiter, and the fastest my dad has had out of his is 31mph.
The range is brilliant aswell, i think ECO mode gives him 80 ish miles, whereas full on Sport (im going racing) mode gives about 22 Miles range. theres 4 other settings in-between but you get the idea.

I've shown them the article, as they didn't believe me you could get done over 15mph, they are impressive things tho

[Dog Star]

skwdenyer said:

I think we are at cross purposes here.

I think eBikes (well, those with some power) represent a fantastic opportunity to get people out of cars and onto eBikes for the benefit of everyone.

The problem IMHO is that the eBikes we have (250W limit) don’t achieve that. They are a great way to make cycling easier, but not an incentive to switch.

I take on board everything said here by the keen cyclists, but that’s just it - the keen cyclists will need no persuading to take this up if it suits them.

So we’re clear, I want eBikes available that will carry a large adult up a proper hill without peddling. A “twist and go” such as we had before the EU got involved (!) but with enough power to be viable for far more people.

Even for town-dwellers, an eBike such as I desire will allow one to arrive at a meeting without needing a shower, but without using up resources and as a side effect reinforcing the idea that riding around outside is more healthy.

For the same reason I believe Segways and eScooters should be legal, too, just like reasonably progressive countries. Paris is hardly an alien culture

TL;DR many here seem to think an eBike should be the equivalent of a well-ridden bike; I think it is so much more!

Sales of these legal pedelecs in other EU countries say different to what you are saying. They're selling hundreds and hundreds of thousands a year - in the UK it's a fraction of that. They have no issue with the restriction over there and they are a real alternative to car use. When we are cycling over there (Ardennes next week) an easy half the bikes we see are electric.

It's nothing whatsover to do with the maximum top assisted speed over in the UK. There a two very fundamental problems - first the weather which is just fking awful, and secondly no proper cycling infrastructure. In the UK we have this ridiculous notion that a cycle lane is a painted line next to the kerb which has cars parked in it (there's this exact thing outside my house). I won't ride on the road, certainly not in rush hour - it's too dangerous. Cycle paths should be segregated - cycles need to be deconflicted from traffic.

At no point have I ever thought my bike is too slow. Weather and conflict with traffic are the turn-offs.

[RizzoTheRat]

skwdenyer said:

I think we are at cross purposes here.

I think eBikes (well, those with some power) represent a fantastic opportunity to get people out of cars and onto eBikes for the benefit of everyone.

The problem IMHO is that the eBikes we have (250W limit) don’t achieve that. They are a great way to make cycling easier, but not an incentive to switch.

I take on board everything said here by the keen cyclists, but that’s just it - the keen cyclists will need no persuading to take this up if it suits them.

So we’re clear, I want eBikes available that will carry a large adult up a proper hill without peddling. A “twist and go” such as we had before the EU got involved (!) but with enough power to be viable for far more people.

Even for town-dwellers, an eBike such as I desire will allow one to arrive at a meeting without needing a shower, but without using up resources and as a side effect reinforcing the idea that riding around outside is more healthy.

For the same reason I believe Segways and eScooters should be legal, too, just like reasonably progressive countries. Paris is hardly an alien culture

TL;DR many here seem to think an eBike should be the equivalent of a well-ridden bike; I think it is so much more!

OK, I see what you mean but I'm still inclined to disagree. A legal e-bike on maximum setting is perfectly capable of 25kph on the flat with minimal rider power, and still get hills albeit at a slower speed. I currently cycle to work and am tempted to get one if I move further away specifically because it would enable to cycle to work in my work clothes without getting sweaty.

In the Netherlands you see huge amounts of older people on them, as e-bikes let people who are no longer as fit still get around by bike. Ok they don't have the hills there, but having rented e-bikes a few times in hillier places I've only ever come across one hill where the bike wouldn't really have coped without a decent amount of my effort to help, and I only went up that one to see how it would handle it.

eScooters however...I was in Dusseldorf the other week and there were rental ones everywhere. Pretty sure they're illegal pretty much everywhere in the UK, although going by the cars vs bike threads on here they'd probably be considered fair game by a lot of driver over here.

[RTB]

When we say bikes are we referring to Penny Farthings or those dreadful modern things with equally sized wheels that?

[skwdenyer]

Dog Star said:

skwdenyer said:

I think we are at cross purposes here.

I think eBikes (well, those with some power) represent a fantastic opportunity to get people out of cars and onto eBikes for the benefit of everyone.

The problem IMHO is that the eBikes we have (250W limit) don’t achieve that. They are a great way to make cycling easier, but not an incentive to switch.

I take on board everything said here by the keen cyclists, but that’s just it - the keen cyclists will need no persuading to take this up if it suits them.

So we’re clear, I want eBikes available that will carry a large adult up a proper hill without peddling. A “twist and go” such as we had before the EU got involved (!) but with enough power to be viable for far more people.

Even for town-dwellers, an eBike such as I desire will allow one to arrive at a meeting without needing a shower, but without using up resources and as a side effect reinforcing the idea that riding around outside is more healthy.

For the same reason I believe Segways and eScooters should be legal, too, just like reasonably progressive countries. Paris is hardly an alien culture

TL;DR many here seem to think an eBike should be the equivalent of a well-ridden bike; I think it is so much more!

Sales of these legal pedelecs in other EU countries say different to what you are saying. They're selling hundreds and hundreds of thousands a year - in the UK it's a fraction of that. They have no issue with the restriction over there and they are a real alternative to car use. When we are cycling over there (Ardennes next week) an easy half the bikes we see are electric.

It's nothing whatsover to do with the maximum top assisted speed over in the UK. There a two very fundamental problems - first the weather which is just fking awful, and secondly no proper cycling infrastructure. In the UK we have this ridiculous notion that a cycle lane is a painted line next to the kerb which has cars parked in it (there's this exact thing outside my house). I won't ride on the road, certainly not in rush hour - it's too dangerous. Cycle paths should be segregated - cycles need to be deconflicted from traffic.

At no point have I ever thought my bike is too slow. Weather and conflict with traffic are the turn-offs.

I'm not sure why you think your experiences somehow contradict my ambitions?

Many other countries don't legislate away progress in the way we do. Hell in Northern Ireland all pedelecs are illegal unless registered as mopeds since the UK is so dysfunctional! Let's compare some of the rules, shall we? In the table below "pedelec" means the things we have here with pedal assist (not twist and go); "other" means other eBikes, scooters, etc.

Country	Pedelec Min Age	Pedelec Restrictions	Other Min Age	Other Restrictions
Belgium	None	None	16	* Up to 1kW + 25kph: compulsory helmet (can be a cycle helmet), no registration, insurance needed ONLY if motor will turn without pedalling, can use cycle lanes, etc. * Up to 4kW + 45kph: number plate, helmet (can be a cycle helmet), insurance ONLY if motor will turn without pedalling, rider must hold a moped licence, can use cycles lanes if prevailing speed limit is up to 50kph but priority given to slower bikes/users. * Above 4kw or 45kph: classed as a motorbike. * Non-bikes such as Segways and scooters etc. legal but can be driven no faster than 18km/h.
Denmark	None	None	15	* eBikes up to 45kph: can use cycle paths, must wear helmet, no licence, no registration. * Non-bikes such as Segways, scooters etc legal with helmet, lights on while driving and a reflective sticker on the side of the vehicle.
UK	14	None	16	Everything else is classed as a motorbike - no cycle paths, full motorbike helmet, registration, insurance, etc. which means that Segways etc are illegal as they cannot meet motorbike regs and aren't allowed on pavements or cycle paths
Germany	None	None	None	Personal Light Electric Vehicles (scooters, Segways, hoverboards, etc.): min 12kph, max 20kph, no helmet, must use cycle paths when there is one, max power 500w (1.2kw for self-balancing vehicles), must be registered.
Switzerland	14/16	14+ - need a special proficiency licence. 16+ no licence needed. Can use roads signed "no motorised bicycles"! NOTE restriction is on speed (25kph) and NOT power	16	Up to 45kph, mandatory insurance, registration, helmet, but can use cycle lanes etc. so long as they're not restricted to "no motorised bicycles"
France	None	None	14/None	* Up to 45kph: registration, insurance, rear-view mirror, moped helmet, no cycle paths* Non-bikes such as Segways etc. legal subject to some common sense restrictions and no age limit
Spain	None	None	15/None	* Non-bikes such as Segways etc. legal up to 25kph, allowed in cycle lanes, etc.
Netherlands	None	None	16	* eBikes up to 45kph classed as mopeds, not allowed in cycle lanes etc. * Non-bikes such as Segways etc. legal on cycle paths without age limit, illegal on pavements except for disabled people and limited to walking pace only

This isn't exhaustive; I'm not going to spend all day looking up rules. But the pattern is quite clear: the UK is one of the most restrictive regimes in the EU.

As evidence of that, of course, strangely, the pre-EU eBike rules - although innovative in 1983 (although frankly they were mainly put in place following lobbying by Clive Sinclair IIRC), they were stifling - 200W (measured differently to today), low weight, and of course the tech wasn't there in any case. The reputation of battery bikes was hugely tainted, and it is taking a long time to make back that ground. The current regulations banning every cool innovation for no good reason really doesn't help.

Where regulations are overly-strict, it creates a culture of low expectations - people expect to be regulated, rather than feeling free to innovate.

Whilst I hear what you say about climate, there are plenty of eBikes in northern Europe and Scandinavia. That isn't really the only issue at play here. The generally more permissive and welcoming approach to new technology, and a genuine desire to get people out of cars, has had a profound impact on the uptake of technology. As ever, the UK is just lagging far behind in a befuddled haze of conservatism.