How enforceable is a will?

[anonymous-user]

If families survive dealing with a will i.e. talking to each other afterwards you are doing well, nothing destroys relationships quite like disputes over wills.

[anonymous-user]

Charles Dickens said:

This is the Court of Chancery, which has its decaying houses and its blighted lands in every shire, which has its worn-out lunatic in every madhouse and its dead in every churchyard, which has its ruined suitor with his slipshod heels and threadbare dress borrowing and begging through the round of every man's acquaintance, which gives to monied might the means abundantly of wearying out the right, which so exhausts finances, patience, courage, hope, so overthrows the brain and breaks the heart, that there is not an honourable man among its practitioners who would not give—who does not often give—the warning, "Suffer any wrong that can be done you rather than come here!"

From "Bleak House". Things have improved since 1852, but not as much as might be hoped.

PS: I am amongst other things a member of Lincoln's Inn and of the Chancery Bar Association. I try to steer clear of the most bonkers stuff, but it's out there.

[anonymous-user]

One of the greatest of all nineteenth century novels.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1023/1023-h/1023-h....

Try also this one -

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7381/7381-h/7381-h....

Or this (early C20) -

http://gutenberg.org/files/2594/2594-h/2594-h.htm

[CAPP0]

Dogwatch said:

As said above when Probate is granted the Will becomes a public document.

OT but where does one go to find this and what information is needed to do so? When my Grandad died, us grandchildren were expecting to be beneficiaries but my old man (who was the executor I believe) fed us a line about there not being enough in the will to make it worthwhile sharing it out. I seem to recall there being some new purchases made by him not long after! Won't change anything, the old man has gone now too but I'm curious.

[anonymous-user]

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

It was his money. It's a bit ungracious to be miffed about what he chose to do with it.

[Osinjak]

Breadvan72 said:

OP, very large books are written about the law relating to wills, but, in very broad summary, a will is enforceable at the suit of its beneficiaries, provided that the will complies with some formal rules and that the bequests that it contains conform to some rules as to clarity and do not offend against various aspects of public policy.

An executor who failed to execute the wishes of a testator would expose him or herself to a claim by a beneficiary who thereby suffered loss. An executor owes what are known as fiduciary duties to beneficiaries. An executor can step down, but until he or she does so he or she owes those duties.

Roger, thanks. The beneficiaries in my mother's will were charities who had no idea the money was coming to them but were obviously very grateful. What I have learnt from this whole sorry saga has reinforced the cliche about how the death(s) of relatives bring out the best and worst of people, so very true in my case. My father has been superb, my estranged brother an absolute weapons-grade tool. As my best friend says, a med neg lawyer, people are bds - especially when it comes to money.

[CAPP0]

Breadvan72 said:

https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

It was his money. It's a bit ungracious to be miffed about what he chose to do with it.

I'm not sure whether that was in response to me? If my point wasn't clear, we were of the understanding, only from family conversation, that our grandfather's will left monies to the grandchildren, but there's a suspicion that our father chose not to execute that. If our grandfather willed it to us then surely it wasn't my father's to choose what to do with it?

[Derek Smith]

gottans said:

If families survive dealing with a will i.e. talking to each other afterwards you are doing well, nothing destroys relationships quite like disputes over wills.

I had an uncle whom I liked, respected and was in awe of. I used to get a real kick if he laughed at my jokes. He was a war hero, built like a second row, and as gentle a bloke as you could wish. I upset him over a will, so much so that I had to apologise. Me being me, I made a few lists, calculations and totals, all on a spreadsheet. I printed it off.

I went to see an aunt to give her the proceeds and he came to save me the petrol - sort of thing he'd do without thinking. I gave him the data and he became angry. He thought I thought (still with me?) that I needed to prove I was trustworthy to him.

Oddly enough, it seemed to bring us closer, and he picked me to be executor of his will but I had to promise not to produce a spreadsheet for relatives.

I take your point about relationships if there's a dispute. There was an argument over vases. Vases of all things! Blew up out of nothing, the suggestion being that I'd undervalued them. A couple of aunts thought they were valuable, but they turned out to be ersatz. A good copy, but a copy. I got a second opinion but the same one. It's the Hun in the Sun that get's you. I didn't see that one coming.

The family thought it hilarious and I was the butt of jokes that Xmas meal. 'Your face when . . . ' But neither of the two who'd argued ever spoke to one another again. Mind you, one died a bit over a year later, so it wasn't for long.

[paul.deitch]

I'm currently dealing with the "will" of a cousin who died in the US. According to her friends she said she had no will. Two weeks after her death a neighbour turned up a lawyers with a signed will which stated that she would receive everything- about $500k ! Her best friends informed the police and started an action to stall the probate. The lawyers found my family history website and contacted me. So I now happen to be the plaintiff in an action representing all the cousins in a no win no fee process! Anyhow some of the cousins who never met the deceased seem to have gone crazy. Two have demanded that illegitimate children should receive nothing although US law is quite clear that if the child if "recognised" by the father he/she can inherit. One especially crazy cousin has raised the fact that his mother, before he was born, looked after the deceased cousin for 4 years and therefore he wants to make a virtual adoption for his deceased mother for a deceased cousin.!!! I could write more but nothing here is exaggerated I just don't want to prejudice my position. Free money makes some people totally crazy.

[Jasey_]

CAPP0 said:

Dogwatch said:

As said above when Probate is granted the Will becomes a public document.

OT but where does one go to find this and what information is needed to do so? When my Grandad died, us grandchildren were expecting to be beneficiaries but my old man (who was the executor I believe) fed us a line about there not being enough in the will to make it worthwhile sharing it out. I seem to recall there being some new purchases made by him not long after! Won't change anything, the old man has gone now too but I'm curious.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

Surname and year of death.

£1.50 per document.

I believe the document cost includes the probate submission (size of estate) and the will.

[CAPP0]

Jasey_ said:

CAPP0 said:

Dogwatch said:

As said above when Probate is granted the Will becomes a public document.

OT but where does one go to find this and what information is needed to do so? When my Grandad died, us grandchildren were expecting to be beneficiaries but my old man (who was the executor I believe) fed us a line about there not being enough in the will to make it worthwhile sharing it out. I seem to recall there being some new purchases made by him not long after! Won't change anything, the old man has gone now too but I'm curious.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

Surname and year of death.

£1.50 per document.

I believe the document cost includes the probate submission (size of estate) and the will.

Thanks, this was also the link which BV posted. I've found the one I was referring to above, although it will be "delivered" to me on 9th November (having paid this evening!) but rather strangely someone else's which would have been of interest, who died in 2017, is nowhere to be found. I can't imagine probate not having been granted yet, it should have been a very straightforward document. Something else to look into!

[Jasey_]

CAPP0 said:

Thanks, this was also the link which BV posted. I've found the one I was referring to above, although it will be "delivered" to me on 9th November (having paid this evening!) but rather strangely someone else's which would have been of interest, who died in 2017, is nowhere to be found. I can't imagine probate not having been granted yet, it should have been a very straightforward document. Something else to look into!

I looked at the page and it said the will would "be available for 31 days" - assumed that meant some sort of on-line access to it ?

Not worried just thought you may not have to wait until next month .

I think probate is only needed if there is property involved or if it's a big estate - but I could be wrong .

[CAPP0]

Jasey_ said:

CAPP0 said:

Thanks, this was also the link which BV posted. I've found the one I was referring to above, although it will be "delivered" to me on 9th November (having paid this evening!) but rather strangely someone else's which would have been of interest, who died in 2017, is nowhere to be found. I can't imagine probate not having been granted yet, it should have been a very straightforward document. Something else to look into!

I looked at the page and it said the will would "be available for 31 days" - assumed that meant some sort of on-line access to it ?

Not worried just thought you may not have to wait until next month .

I think probate is only needed if there is property involved or if it's a big estate - but I could be wrong .

Seemed to suggest that it would be available for 31 days once they make it available. There's no rush, I'm just curious and didn't know until this evening that you could get access.

The other one, it was believed that the deceased willed everything to their spouse so perhaps that's why probate wasn't required, I'm only curious (again!) because my brother and I uncovered some nefarious activity at the time which may have been related and was never properly explained.

[Psycho Warren]

CAPP0 said:

,I'm only curious (again!) because my brother and I uncovered some nefarious activity at the time which may have been related and was never properly explained.

similar with my dad. he had dementia in the end so we suspect someth8ng dodgy went on as his wife was a bit of a psycho and suddenly started spending a lot of money, gave large house deposits to her kids from that marriage etc. My dad hwd a lot of money saved when he went into a home and he wasnt alive long enough for it to go on care costs. My whole dads side of the fsmily are suspicious as the wife basically stopped anyone else visiting him in the last couple of years despite protests from several family members.

after the death she tried to have the family banned from the funeral and has refused to let anyone see the will and funnily enough no probate has been lodged. i camt see how that bias legal as the shared home is worth enough to warrant probate (albeit she would keep that anyway). we suspect she has either deliberately hidden access to the will and illegally distributed assets as she sees fit. or cleverely probably gained power of attorny and moved assets before his death. unfortunately no easy avenue to get police involved at this late stage. nit sure there woould be any point other than finding out the truth.

[anonymous-user]

1. In English law, if spouses jointly own property, the surviving spouse becomes the sole owner of the property on the death of the other spouse. The property does not become part of the estate of the dead spouse. This is called the right of survivorship.

2. Absent any trust arrangement, any person is free to do what he or she wishes with his or her money and property. The notion that you have an entitlement to a share in someone else's money or property just because you are related to them is very distorting. As noted above, the idea of free money makes people crazy.

3. Some relationships confer entitlements in the event of intestacy, and in limited circumstances dependents can claim where a will makes inadequate provision for them.

BUT

4. In general it is better for your mental health NOT to assume that any relative will leave you anything, and not to spend your time falling out with your dead relations or your living ones because of money that you never had but have now become obsessed with.

Greed for unearned wealth fuels many disputes. It would be better left to the pages of Victorian novels.

Now I must go and do some work about a very large dispute about the vast loot left by some dead bloke whose rellies are litigating in seven countries.

[Seesure]

CAPP0 said:

Seemed to suggest that it would be available for 31 days once they make it available. There's no rush, I'm just curious and didn't know until this evening that you could get access.

You'll get an email to say it's ready, you then go back in to the website and, IIRC, you go to "My Wills" or similar and it will be there as a PDF, you can download the PDF as you want, but after 31 days it disappears from "My Wills". So a s long as you've downloaded it you have it for as long as you want.

I've done a few of these whilst researching family ancestry and it's a pretty good service TBH as long as you can find the right person / will.

[The Moose]

gottans said:

If families survive dealing with a will i.e. talking to each other afterwards you are doing well, nothing destroys relationships quite like disputes over wills.

I’ve always thought it bizarre that people won’t talk about what’s in their will before they pop their clogs. That way, there should be no confusion and one less reason for greedy kids to be pissy at each other.

[anonymous-user]

Nothing will stop those who are greedy about money that they have not earned from being so. Informing people in advance of testamentary intentions may just make the disputes happen earlier, and be worse after the testator's death. Also, a testator/trix can always change his or her mind and alter his or her will before death.

If you are very wealthy, establish trust funds while you are still alive for those you intend to benefit in the future.

One of the Rockefellers said something like "leave your children enough to do anything, but not enough to do nothing". The spoilt brat antics of second and third generation billionaire families are something to behold, but families fight over much smaller sums as well.

If you didn't like and trust your parents, why then try to grab their money? Why not move on? I loved my late dad and I love my still living mum. I had and have no expectations that their deaths would leave me better off. I shall probably die skint, but my one child will be fine as her mum has plenty of stuff.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 27th October 05:43

[matchmaker]

Breadvan72 said:

1. In English law, if spouses jointly own property, the surviving spouse becomes the sole owner of the property on the death of the other spouse. The property does not become part of the estate of the dead spouse. This is called the right of survivorship.

2. Absent any trust arrangement, any person is free to do what he or she wishes with his or her money and property. The notion that you have an entitlement to a share in someone else's money or property just because you are related to them is very distorting. As noted above, the idea of free money makes people crazy.

3. Some relationships confer entitlements in the event of intestacy, and in limited circumstances dependents can claim where a will makes inadequate provision for them.

BUT

4. In general it is better for your mental health NOT to assume that any relative will leave you anything, and not to spend your time falling out with your dead relations or your living ones because of money that you never had but have now become obsessed with.

Greed for unearned wealth fuels many disputes. It would be better left to the pages of Victorian novels.

Now I must go and do some work about a very large dispute about the vast loot left by some dead bloke whose rellies are litigating in seven countries.

It's maybe worth noting that Scots law differs in that respect - you can't disinherit or "write out" your child from your will.

[anonymous-user]

I was only commenting on English law.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 26th October 13:31