Crash and hire car - other party wont pay hire fees
Discussion
A little help/advice please from the PH collective - thanks.
Missus was shunted by a truck last March - smashed up the boot/rear window/taillights/bumper. Guy admitted fault, and insurance companies got involved. Insurance company arranged a hire car with a hire car company - should have been a week or 10 days tops. Then coronavirus hit and the repair garage went into lockdown. The hire car stayed with us for a few months, then in Summer we got our car back and gave the hire car back. All sorted, all happy.
Now the other guy's insurance company says the hire car charge is excessive and won't pay. Car hire people have appointed solicitors to sue them for the money and apparently the wife has to be the claimant! Apparently insurance company didnt hire the car... WE DID. SO the contract is with us and insurance company want's nowt to do with it. Solicitors are all very nice about it but want loads of info about our personal finances to see if we coiuld have afforded the hire car if insurance hadn't paid. What's that go to do with anything?
Where do we stand? What MUST we do, what MUSTN'T we do etc? I'm tempted to tell 'em to do one, wifey wants to be helpful. Any help greatly appreciated, TIA.
Missus was shunted by a truck last March - smashed up the boot/rear window/taillights/bumper. Guy admitted fault, and insurance companies got involved. Insurance company arranged a hire car with a hire car company - should have been a week or 10 days tops. Then coronavirus hit and the repair garage went into lockdown. The hire car stayed with us for a few months, then in Summer we got our car back and gave the hire car back. All sorted, all happy.
Now the other guy's insurance company says the hire car charge is excessive and won't pay. Car hire people have appointed solicitors to sue them for the money and apparently the wife has to be the claimant! Apparently insurance company didnt hire the car... WE DID. SO the contract is with us and insurance company want's nowt to do with it. Solicitors are all very nice about it but want loads of info about our personal finances to see if we coiuld have afforded the hire car if insurance hadn't paid. What's that go to do with anything?
Where do we stand? What MUST we do, what MUSTN'T we do etc? I'm tempted to tell 'em to do one, wifey wants to be helpful. Any help greatly appreciated, TIA.
Moderator edit: no naming & shaming please
cheers for reply. HAD to go to court or AGREED to go to court? Were you compensated for your time off work? Seems like a lot of hassle when the whole point of the insurance is for them to deal with the crap. I'm still of the view "it's not my problem". (well it isn't MY problem, it's the wife's!)
This is common and how many (most?) “courtesy” cars are handled now when it is expected to be non fault and therefore recoverable.
Legally you are responsible for the charges as you signed a credit hire agreement in your name with the hire company. Your insurance company will probably see this very black and white and also not their problem as they will just say you signed the agreement.
However, they will fight for the money and try and recover this cost up to and including going to court for it. So, you should cooperate with them and give them statements, agree to go to court if asked, etc as you need to help them reclaim this. It is also common for the third party to try and fight these costs as it bumps up their costs a lot so they will try and put up resistance. Typically, they back down before court action actually happens but expect this to drag on for a few months.
The hire company themselves are unlikely to pursue you for the credit hire costs even if your insurance company are unable to recoup the costs from the third party. The number that are paid out far outweigh those that end up in court and eventually not recouped.
Legally you are responsible for the charges as you signed a credit hire agreement in your name with the hire company. Your insurance company will probably see this very black and white and also not their problem as they will just say you signed the agreement.
However, they will fight for the money and try and recover this cost up to and including going to court for it. So, you should cooperate with them and give them statements, agree to go to court if asked, etc as you need to help them reclaim this. It is also common for the third party to try and fight these costs as it bumps up their costs a lot so they will try and put up resistance. Typically, they back down before court action actually happens but expect this to drag on for a few months.
The hire company themselves are unlikely to pursue you for the credit hire costs even if your insurance company are unable to recoup the costs from the third party. The number that are paid out far outweigh those that end up in court and eventually not recouped.
RedAndy said:
cheers for reply. HAD to go to court or AGREED to go to court? Were you compensated for your time off work? Seems like a lot of hassle when the whole point of the insurance is for them to deal with the crap. I'm still of the view "it's not my problem". (well it isn't MY problem, it's the wife's!)
I can't actually recall so I'll say that I agreed to go to court and I also can't recall if I was compensated or not. I was young and naive about it but ultimately I knew that it wasn't on my toes So the hire company will do everything they can to ask you the relevant questions regarding the need for hire, assuming they have done that, then it will be for them to then prove that you didnt lie to them, as one of the standard questions when speaking to you about the hire, will be if you have the means to hire a vehicle for yourself, this is why they are now asking for the financial details.
They then have to show that everything reasonable was done to ensure the repairs werent delayed unnecessarily.
As your wife hired the car, she is the claimant, and she will be the one recovering the costs, although the hire company solicitors will do everything for her.
You will just need to assist as much as possible, as there will be something in the hire car agreement, that will state something along the lines of, if you do anything that prevents them from recovering their costs, you will be liable for those costs, so if you suddenly start telling them where to go, you may find the bill for the hire vehicle landing on your step, and as you have signed the agreement, you will be liable for the costs.
They then have to show that everything reasonable was done to ensure the repairs werent delayed unnecessarily.
As your wife hired the car, she is the claimant, and she will be the one recovering the costs, although the hire company solicitors will do everything for her.
You will just need to assist as much as possible, as there will be something in the hire car agreement, that will state something along the lines of, if you do anything that prevents them from recovering their costs, you will be liable for those costs, so if you suddenly start telling them where to go, you may find the bill for the hire vehicle landing on your step, and as you have signed the agreement, you will be liable for the costs.
If you (or your wife) don't want to be liable for the bill then you have to help.
It's a bit outrageous that insurance companies don't make this clear when they offer to arrange the car for you.
Same happened to daughter with a well regarded insurance company when hers was rear-ended by an Argos van. Their insurer didn't respond to the claim at all so daughter had to sign documents about taking action for the whole claim, but that was the last she heard of it.
It's a bit outrageous that insurance companies don't make this clear when they offer to arrange the car for you.
Same happened to daughter with a well regarded insurance company when hers was rear-ended by an Argos van. Their insurer didn't respond to the claim at all so daughter had to sign documents about taking action for the whole claim, but that was the last she heard of it.
Your other half was given a credit hire vehicle NOT a courtesy car. Your insurer passed you onto an accident management firm (AMC) to handle the recovery of your uninsured losses ie personal injury, excess and the cost of the hire vehicle. Have a look at the hire contract your other half signed. She has personally incurred that loss which is recoverable from the third party insurer. If she hadn't incurred the loss, there would be nothing to claim for.
Yes, proceedings will have to be issued in her name as the Claimant as they are her losses. The AMC will fund the whole action. If she goes ahead with the claim and gives them all the information they need which means attending Court, she shouldn't have to pay any part of the hire bill even if they are awarded nothing or less than the amount they are asking for.
If you instruct her to pull the plug and don't take an active part in the proceedings, the AMC can come after her personally for the hire charges as the contract will state that she has a duty to take an active part in the proceedings to recover the hire charges.
The financial information they are asking for goes towards mitigating the loss. Did you need a hire vehicle? Could you afford to hire a vehicle yourself at spot hire rates out of your savings or use a credit card and then settle the bill when the third party pays for it? You'll be asked to stump up bank statements and all details of income and expenditure alongside savings etc, etc.
Play ball and you should be ok.
Next time someone offers you a shiny new hire car for free, think twice.
Yes, proceedings will have to be issued in her name as the Claimant as they are her losses. The AMC will fund the whole action. If she goes ahead with the claim and gives them all the information they need which means attending Court, she shouldn't have to pay any part of the hire bill even if they are awarded nothing or less than the amount they are asking for.
If you instruct her to pull the plug and don't take an active part in the proceedings, the AMC can come after her personally for the hire charges as the contract will state that she has a duty to take an active part in the proceedings to recover the hire charges.
The financial information they are asking for goes towards mitigating the loss. Did you need a hire vehicle? Could you afford to hire a vehicle yourself at spot hire rates out of your savings or use a credit card and then settle the bill when the third party pays for it? You'll be asked to stump up bank statements and all details of income and expenditure alongside savings etc, etc.
Play ball and you should be ok.
Next time someone offers you a shiny new hire car for free, think twice.
Credit Hire.
There is a duty not to run up unnecessary fees in the hiring of a replacement vehicle.
eg
1) Did you have a suitable second vehicle of your own that you could have used instead of going to the expense of hiring a car?
2) Did you have sufficient funds to cover the hire yourself at a market rate rather than taking out a vastly more expensive credit hire?
3) Was it necessary for the hire to last as long as it did.
Depends what's in the credit hire contract you signed but it's quite usual for you to be indemnified providing you agree to assist the insurer/supplier in reclaiming their costs where possible.
There is a duty not to run up unnecessary fees in the hiring of a replacement vehicle.
eg
1) Did you have a suitable second vehicle of your own that you could have used instead of going to the expense of hiring a car?
2) Did you have sufficient funds to cover the hire yourself at a market rate rather than taking out a vastly more expensive credit hire?
3) Was it necessary for the hire to last as long as it did.
Depends what's in the credit hire contract you signed but it's quite usual for you to be indemnified providing you agree to assist the insurer/supplier in reclaiming their costs where possible.
Sheepshanks said:
If you (or your wife) don't want to be liable for the bill then you have to help.
It's a bit outrageous that insurance comapnies don't make this clear when they offer to arrange the car for you. Same happened to daughter with a well regarded insurance company when hers was rear-ended by an Argos van. Their insurer didn't respond to the claim at all so daughter had to sign documents about taking action for the whole claim, but that was the last she heard of it.
To be fair, the one time I had a car arranged for me by Admiral’s accident management company (I think it was them - it was a while ago!), they made it very clear in the contract they sent for the hire car that I was going to be liable if the other party didn’t pay, but also that there was a zero cost waiver to sign to avoid this somehow. I forget the details other than that I was a bit concerned that I might be on the hook for hire fees... I do seem to recall that I would have been obliged to go to court to support them if the other side contested the hire fee.It's a bit outrageous that insurance comapnies don't make this clear when they offer to arrange the car for you. Same happened to daughter with a well regarded insurance company when hers was rear-ended by an Argos van. Their insurer didn't respond to the claim at all so daughter had to sign documents about taking action for the whole claim, but that was the last she heard of it.
You should check what you’ve signed up to I think, it’ll tell you what you are and aren’t obliged to do. I suspect if you don’t help you may be on the hook for the fees, but if you do your insurance company will take the other side to court on your behalf to recover them, at no cost to you (other than time)?
In the scheme of things a £2k credit hire bill is nothing. Even if they issue proceedings, it’ll be allocated to the small claims track where nobody can recover costs so they’ll settle.
I guarantee you, this won’t go to Court if the hire bill is under £2k. It’s not worth it. It’ll be some claims handler working for the third party insurer digging their heels in. When it gets passed to solicitors or someone more senior, they’ll take a more pragmatic approach and settle.
If you’re bored, have a look at some of the hire rates in the link for tastier motors. Fast Audi/Merc/BMW commands a daily rate of circa £270 a day...
I guarantee you, this won’t go to Court if the hire bill is under £2k. It’s not worth it. It’ll be some claims handler working for the third party insurer digging their heels in. When it gets passed to solicitors or someone more senior, they’ll take a more pragmatic approach and settle.
If you’re bored, have a look at some of the hire rates in the link for tastier motors. Fast Audi/Merc/BMW commands a daily rate of circa £270 a day...
vonhosen said:
Credit Hire.
There is a duty not to run up unnecessary fees in the hiring of a replacement vehicle.
eg
1) Did you have a suitable second vehicle of your own that you could have used instead of going to the expense of hiring a car?
2) Did you have sufficient funds to cover the hire yourself at a market rate rather than taking out a vastly more expensive credit hire?
3) Was it necessary for the hire to last as long as it did.
Depends what's in the credit hire contract you signed but it's quite usual for you to be indemnified providing you agree to assist the insurer/supplier in reclaiming their costs where possible.
OP, was it credit hire, with questions like those vonhosen listed?There is a duty not to run up unnecessary fees in the hiring of a replacement vehicle.
eg
1) Did you have a suitable second vehicle of your own that you could have used instead of going to the expense of hiring a car?
2) Did you have sufficient funds to cover the hire yourself at a market rate rather than taking out a vastly more expensive credit hire?
3) Was it necessary for the hire to last as long as it did.
Depends what's in the credit hire contract you signed but it's quite usual for you to be indemnified providing you agree to assist the insurer/supplier in reclaiming their costs where possible.
KungFuPanda said:
In the scheme of things a £2k credit hire bill is nothing. Even if they issue proceedings, it’ll be allocated to the small claims track where nobody can recover costs so they’ll settle.
I guarantee you, this won’t go to Court if the hire bill is under £2k. It’s not worth it. It’ll be some claims handler working for the third party insurer digging their heels in. When it gets passed to solicitors or someone more senior, they’ll take a more pragmatic approach and settle.
If you’re bored, have a look at some of the hire rates in the link for tastier motors. Fast Audi/Merc/BMW commands a daily rate of circa £270 a day...
These rates are actually not that unreasonable, but I suspect what's happened in this case is that the OP's solicitors have claimed that the OP is `impecunious'. If so, then it unlocks a treasure chest for the claims management company, as they can then charge truly extortionate hire rates.I guarantee you, this won’t go to Court if the hire bill is under £2k. It’s not worth it. It’ll be some claims handler working for the third party insurer digging their heels in. When it gets passed to solicitors or someone more senior, they’ll take a more pragmatic approach and settle.
If you’re bored, have a look at some of the hire rates in the link for tastier motors. Fast Audi/Merc/BMW commands a daily rate of circa £270 a day...
To get some idea of these this is an extract from a judgment given in 2018 in Cardiff County Court, EUI Ltd -v Charles. The full judgment can be read here - https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2018/B7.html
Paragraph 5 sets out the claims, and the amounts are truly eye-watering!
The credit hire claims asserted in the individual cases can be summarised as follows:-
CHARLES: £8608.08 claimed for 52 days credit hire to replace a Honda PCX 125 motorcycle.
CZYRKIEWICZ: £11,915 claimed for 52 days credit hire to replace a Suzuki GSR 750 motorcycle.
MIRZA: £3145 claimed for 13 days credit hire to replace a Kawasaki Z1000 motorcycle.
VRINCIANU £28,030 claimed for 42 days hire to replace a Mercedes E220.
WILSON £37,819 claimed for 45 days credit hire to replace a Mercedes C63 AMG.
ALI £13,628 for 102 days credit hire to replace a Hyundai I20.
FELLOWS £11,203.20 for 40 days credit hire to replace a Mercedes B180.
The rates for motor bikes are just staggering - £229 a day for a Suzuki 750! You can buy one of the bloody things new for less than £7k, yet they’re charging £12k for a hire period of less than 8 weeks!
For cars, the rates work out at £666 a day for an E-Class Merc, and £280 a day for a humble B-Class. Even a pov car like a Hyundai i20 is charged out at £134 a day! That compares with the daily rate of £37.45 allowed for the same car under the GTA rates, i.e. it’s getting on for 4 times the normal credit hire rate.
On that basis, the OP’s bill for an 8 week hire period could be in the region of £6,500.
This `impecunious credit hire’ industry is an outrageous scam, and I’ve never understood how the claims firms can get away with it.
However, it would explain why they’re now asking for details of the OP’s finances. They may want to establish that he’s impecunious in order to try and claim these extortionate rates.
A question to the OP – how much is the actual hire bill? If it’s only a couple of thousand then the impecuniosity aspect won’t be relevant, but I felt that other readers should be aware of this scam anyway.
KungFuPanda said:
The AMC operating on behalf of Mazda got very annoyed with me when I told them I didn't want their supposed equivalent vehicle when my Mx5 was in for repair. They insisted that a 320d was the perfect replacement and only swapped it for more basic car after I pointed out that I was only driving 14 miles a day in it and short journeys aren't recommended in a diesel.RedAndy said:
I don't know exactly, but about 8 weeks I think? So a bit under £2k.
In my example the offending insurance co were presented with an £8K bill for 30 days hire of a brand new BMW Z4 which was 'awarded' to me by my insurer's preferred accident management company partners. The bus company whose driver hit my parked car (VX220) disputed the amount as unreasonable and I had to go to court to prove why I was entitled to that vehicle. Again, as the verdict had FA to do with me I had no idea who 'won' in the end.
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