Fatal Accident: How long should road remain closed?
Discussion
oobster said:
This thread depresses me.
I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
One of the vehicles involved was subject of a called off Police pursuit not long before the crash. IOPC involved - so there'll also be lots of arse coveringI can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
Drumroll said:
ingenieur said:
Can I ask if anybody knows what has changed in the last 30-odd years which causes the roads to be closed for such a long time when something like this happens? Presumably the emotions of the families of the loved ones involved in any incident would still have been part of the equation? I don't think emotions are something we've only just started having?
A lot of evidence gathered at RTC helps in developing safety for us all. Knowing how a car actually behaves in a collision enables improvements to be made. For example throughout Europe data collected on how a certain car behaves in say I side intrusion incident can be used to improve that cars side protection. How barriers behave in accidents can be used to modify barriers. Whilst some of this used to go on, by gathering more data it gives a more accurate picture.
30 years ago it was likely a traffic officer with a tape measure that would build a picture of what had happened. Know they are dedicated officers who investigate collisions. They use data mapping and drones etc will interrogate cars data. They will look at Dashcams, CCTV etc.
People now want better answers (someone to blame) than your family member died in a car crash.
Also more cars on the road mean more people will have their travel plans disrupted if a road is closed.
Drumroll said:
FMOB said:
I think the issue is that serious/fatal accidents are now treated as crime scenes because we now have charges such as causing death by dangerous driving, etc where evidence is needed.
Of course it is, but I was pointing out that nowadays it is much more than that.Drumroll said:
ingenieur said:
Can I ask if anybody knows what has changed in the last 30-odd years which causes the roads to be closed for such a long time when something like this happens? Presumably the emotions of the families of the loved ones involved in any incident would still have been part of the equation? I don't think emotions are something we've only just started having?
A lot of evidence gathered at RTC helps in developing safety for us all. Knowing how a car actually behaves in a collision enables improvements to be made. For example throughout Europe data collected on how a certain car behaves in say I side intrusion incident can be used to improve that cars side protection. How barriers behave in accidents can be used to modify barriers. Whilst some of this used to go on, by gathering more data it gives a more accurate picture.
30 years ago it was likely a traffic officer with a tape measure that would build a picture of what had happened. Know they are dedicated officers who investigate collisions. They use data mapping and drones etc will interrogate cars data. They will look at Dashcams, CCTV etc.
People now want better answers (someone to blame) than your family member died in a car crash.
Also more cars on the road mean more people will have their travel plans disrupted if a road is closed.
ingenieur said:
Can I ask if anybody knows what has changed in the last 30-odd years which causes the roads to be closed for such a long time when something like this happens? Presumably the emotions of the families of the loved ones involved in any incident would still have been part of the equation? I don't think emotions are something we've only just started having?
I think it's that attitudes have changed, and like many, I think attitudes of the past were wrong. In the past (and still today to a great degree) a lot of crashes were just dismissed as 'accidents' when in fact they were the result of bad behaviour with tragic consequences.So nowadays, if people are killed or seriously injured, the crash has to be investigated fully.
I have no problem with this, I think we have to accept it and get on. But I would like to see policing of the roads changed to a great degree, because it's not just that people get hurt or worse, there's also the fact that on today's roads millions of people can then be greatly affected and inconvenienced due to subsequent road closures.
I would especially like to see motorway shunts treated differently. Of course m'ways are the safest roads, but when there are collisions the consequences can be worse, not just because of speeds involved, but also because huge numbers of people can then be greatly inconvenienced. I think even a simple rear ender on an m'way should result in good dose of points being applied to a licence, because of the enormous inconvenience that can incurred.
In the case of road or such as bridge repairs, the ongoing inconvenience can last many days.
oobster said:
This thread depresses me.
I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
I think you don't know some families. Especially political families who will discuss things which aren't easy to talk about over Sunday lunch without losing control of their emotional faculties. i.e. people who would say it from behind a keyboard or talk about it with their friends and family. A lot of people have jobs which deal daily with death and the surrounding matters and must be able to talk about it frankly. Can you imagine if they went to pieces the moment they heard there was such a thing as a trade off between emotions and practical realities? I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
I'm trying to imagine this meeting that would take place at whichever government department deals with incident response where they talk about everything except the taboo subject of decreasing the time of road closures for major incidents. One guy brings it up, "I wonder if we... do you think... we could open the road sooner" he says and immediately gets shouted down by his colleagues and hounded out of the room before being fired.
I think it's a bit of a leap to interpret the obvious urgency there is to reopen roads that many people on topics like this can see as being purely a lack of empathy. We don't know what everybody on here does for work and some of those people you're criticising may well have some role dealing with these situations and better know what's involved than the rest of us.
Ultimately in a serious injury or death case there may be someone responsible for life changing injuries or taking someone's life. If we no longer hold those people to account, because we choose not to investigate fully for fear of inconveniencing people (albeit sometimes a large number, temporarily), the result is people are less likely to modify their behaviour.
There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
Forester1965 said:
Ultimately in a serious injury or death case there may be someone responsible for life changing injuries or taking someone's life. If we no longer hold those people to account, because we choose not to investigate fully for fear of inconveniencing people (albeit sometimes a large number, temporarily), the result is people are less likely to modify their behaviour.
There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
If you could talk about this issue without the adverse reactions there is potential for making decisions which could be effective in opening roads faster while still meeting the same standards for evidence collection. For instance, spreading the skills, training and authorisation required amongst a greater number of first responders potentially has the effect of concluding investigations more quickly compared with summoning specialist skills to site every time something like this happens. There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
ingenieur said:
Forester1965 said:
Ultimately in a serious injury or death case there may be someone responsible for life changing injuries or taking someone's life. If we no longer hold those people to account, because we choose not to investigate fully for fear of inconveniencing people (albeit sometimes a large number, temporarily), the result is people are less likely to modify their behaviour.
There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
If you could talk about this issue without the adverse reactions there is potential for making decisions which could be effective in opening roads faster while still meeting the same standards for evidence collection. For instance, spreading the skills, training and authorisation required amongst a greater number of first responders potentially has the effect of concluding investigations more quickly compared with summoning specialist skills to site every time something like this happens. There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
Greendubber said:
ingenieur said:
Forester1965 said:
Ultimately in a serious injury or death case there may be someone responsible for life changing injuries or taking someone's life. If we no longer hold those people to account, because we choose not to investigate fully for fear of inconveniencing people (albeit sometimes a large number, temporarily), the result is people are less likely to modify their behaviour.
There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
If you could talk about this issue without the adverse reactions there is potential for making decisions which could be effective in opening roads faster while still meeting the same standards for evidence collection. For instance, spreading the skills, training and authorisation required amongst a greater number of first responders potentially has the effect of concluding investigations more quickly compared with summoning specialist skills to site every time something like this happens. There's a line of compromise in any system, here between speed (as in of journeys, rather than on the speedo) and safety. People's opinions will typically fall in line closer to one end then the other. Not sure you can realistically reconcile them if they're towards the extremes of either.
oobster said:
This thread depresses me.
I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
I have first hand experience of this.I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
A few years ago the M6 toll was closed due to an 'incident' with a pedestrian and it caused chaos locally with people diverting around it, Our cannock depot was severely effected due to the ensuing gridlock. It was implied in news reports that someone had commited suicide by jumping.
https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/uk-world-news...
Later that day my partner got a phone call to say it was her step-father who had fallen from the bridge before being hit by an artic.
That kind of put a whole different slant on it for me as none of us believed he would have done such a thing.
Many months later after a post mortum and inquest it was found that he had had a massive epileptic fit (he was a life long epilieptic) whilst crossing the bridge which caused him to fall over the railings.
so our personal family loss pretty much outweighed a few thousand people being late for work that morning.
Nearly 24 hours for this one, although there is structural damage to gantries etc, but people still b
hing and moaning about it.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24135267.m27-cras...
hing and moaning about it.https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24135267.m27-cras...
119 said:
Nearly 24 hours for this one, although there is structural damage to gantries etc, but people still bhing and moaning about it.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24135267.m27-cras...
It's a peculiarly large closure to be fair, 20 miles before where the incident occurred. But I presume it's to do with how to effectively route traffic around it the best and what roads are best suited for that task.hing and moaning about it.https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24135267.m27-cras...
Tankrizzo said:
119 said:
Nearly 24 hours for this one, although there is structural damage to gantries etc, but people still bhing and moaning about it.
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24135267.m27-cras...
It's a peculiarly large closure to be fair, 20 miles before where the incident occurred. But I presume it's to do with how to effectively route traffic around it the best and what roads are best suited for that task.hing and moaning about it.https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24135267.m27-cras...
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