Fatal Accident: How long should road remain closed?
Discussion
MrBogSmith said:
Dixy said:
The needs of the many out way the needs of the few.
It would be interesting to know the frequency of action being taken and if anyone ever feels justice has been done.
Off the top of my head, in a third of cases where there's a road traffic fatality it results in a prosecution. It would be interesting to know the frequency of action being taken and if anyone ever feels justice has been done.
As to whether justice has been done? No sentence will ever bring a loved one back.
Leveret said:
What a futile sentence! In this particular case, why on earth did it take as long as it did? Why all lanes - on both sides - closed? And yes, even if it were my 'loved one', I would still be askking the same questions about what seems to be a barn door obvious uncomplicated collision.
RTCs where a death is involved is treated as a crime scene, as such the scene remains locked down until the investigators are satisfied that they've located, identified and recorded all the evidence that is present. There are often two questions that need answering; how and why. The how part is usually slightly more clear cut from wreckage positioning, marks on the road surface, witness marks on street furniture or trees, witness statements and so on, but the why can be more tricky. Ultimately if there was a murder in the local highstreet, the scene would be locked down while it was investigated. A fatal RTC is no different; if somebody is culpable of causing a death, it needs to be investigated and the scene remains closed. A lady at work lost her 18yo daughter and her boyfriend in a fatal collision 18 months ago. They were passengers, but paid the ultimate price, and the toll on the family has been immeasurable. Due to to the road closure and subsequent investigation, they're now at a point where it's going to court, as a surviving third party is in the box for two counts of causing death by dangerous driving.
The effects on the family last far longer and far outweigh any temporary inconvenience for drivers on the day having to follow a diversionary route around a fatal RTC.
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
Leveret said:
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
My answer is, we don't know. We can all speculate, some of us have knowledge of what is involved, but can't answer the specifics for this collision.Speculative answers.
The opposite carriageway was part of the incident.
Closing the whole motorway enabled evidence to be collected easier.
Closing the whole motorway made the whole thing safer for all those involved.
I could go on.
I can assure you that the after incident debrief will include the question as why the Motorway was closed for so long.
Leveret said:
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
Have a read of my post on the first page. Gives you an idea why it takes so long. CCTV footage is genuinely s
t. Its normally from a distance. Or something passes at the time you don't want it to. Plus not every section of the road will be covered by CCTV.
Leveret said:
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
Sometimes debris, including bits of person ends up on the opposite side of the road. "I see part of the deceased is in lane 2 on the other side, let's keep the road open as it's on camera an watch it her driven over by a few thousand vehicles"
There is incentive to collect evidence and get the roads open, I'm amazed you think no one cares about it TBH.
Leveret said:
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
I can assure you that the motorway is closed for the minimum amount of time possible. If that seems like a long time, then it's a good indication of the seriousness/complexity/other factors in the collision that warrant such a closure. The authorities are under immense pressure to get the motorway open, one thing is for certain; you can be sure the investigation teams will be working as efficiently and as quickly as they can, but also diligently to ensure they don't rush and miss vital things. Also consider that at motorway speeds, collision scenes can actually span quite a large stretch of the motorway, so it's a large scene to look at in detail.
Another reason a motorway could be closed in both directions is due to fuel spillage or contamination of the road surface - it may need resurfacing if diesel has spilled across from the opposite side, for example. Resurfacing can take hours, depending on where the heavy plant is and how much of the motorway needs repairing.
Don't assume cameras "must" have recorded anything. As previously mentioned, CCTV isn't always pointing or zoomed in to the exact roadspace that a collision occurs and dashcan footage often has a habit of driving off into the sunset, which is of no use to investigators at the scene.
Greendubber said:
Leveret said:
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
I'm amazed you think no one cares about it TBH. E-bmw said:
Greendubber said:
Leveret said:
Yes, I understand all that. But my question is why were all lanes on both sides of probably the busiest motorway in the realm closed for so long? Is there no incentive to be more efficient about investigating and collecting 'evidence' - especially when numerous cameras must have recorded the event?
I'm amazed you think no one cares about it TBH. I might keep a road closed just a little bit longer, for no reason in the hope a ruddy faced Leveret is somewhere in the congestion I'm unnecessarily causing
Muddle238 said:
I can assure you that the motorway is closed for the minimum amount of time possible. If that seems like a long time, then it's a good indication of the seriousness/complexity/other factors in the collision that warrant such a closure.
The authorities are under immense pressure to get the motorway open, one thing is for certain; you can be sure the investigation teams will be working as efficiently and as quickly as they can, but also diligently to ensure they don't rush and miss vital things. Also consider that at motorway speeds, collision scenes can actually span quite a large stretch of the motorway, so it's a large scene to look at in detail.
Another reason a motorway could be closed in both directions is due to fuel spillage or contamination of the road surface - it may need resurfacing if diesel has spilled across from the opposite side, for example. Resurfacing can take hours, depending on where the heavy plant is and how much of the motorway needs repairing.
Don't assume cameras "must" have recorded anything. As previously mentioned, CCTV isn't always pointing or zoomed in to the exact roadspace that a collision occurs and dashcan footage often has a habit of driving off into the sunset, which is of no use to investigators at the scene.
The authorities are under immense pressure to get the motorway open, one thing is for certain; you can be sure the investigation teams will be working as efficiently and as quickly as they can, but also diligently to ensure they don't rush and miss vital things. Also consider that at motorway speeds, collision scenes can actually span quite a large stretch of the motorway, so it's a large scene to look at in detail.
Another reason a motorway could be closed in both directions is due to fuel spillage or contamination of the road surface - it may need resurfacing if diesel has spilled across from the opposite side, for example. Resurfacing can take hours, depending on where the heavy plant is and how much of the motorway needs repairing.
Don't assume cameras "must" have recorded anything. As previously mentioned, CCTV isn't always pointing or zoomed in to the exact roadspace that a collision occurs and dashcan footage often has a habit of driving off into the sunset, which is of no use to investigators at the scene.
StressedDave said:
I stopped doing AI 20+ years ago, but looking at that scene, I can understand why it's still shut 6 hours later. Just a few factors:
1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
2. Someone has to do a fingertip search of that central reservation for trace evidence.
3. Entrapments or victim underneath vehicle but certified dead.
4. Waiting for hook - they've got to fight their way through the traffic to get there to recover the vehicles
5. Waiting for AI and vehicle examiner. You might want to interrogate the ECUs at the scene rather than worry about them losing their volatile memory after a day or so with the battery disconnected.
6. Waiting for photographer
7. Possibly waiting for CSE - if the AI isn't trusted to recover his own samples.
8. Waiting for SIO (Came after my time, but they're bound to be stuck in a meeting somewhere) and gathering the rest of the troops.
9. Waiting for everything to be out of the way so you can have a final mooch about and make sure you've not missed anything because after a few thousand disgruntled drivers pass through, you're not going to find something you need
Six from nine factors raised by an ex-AI cop involve waiting. Waiting and efficiency are not compatible. There's room for improvement if it's wanted.1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
2. Someone has to do a fingertip search of that central reservation for trace evidence.
3. Entrapments or victim underneath vehicle but certified dead.
4. Waiting for hook - they've got to fight their way through the traffic to get there to recover the vehicles
5. Waiting for AI and vehicle examiner. You might want to interrogate the ECUs at the scene rather than worry about them losing their volatile memory after a day or so with the battery disconnected.
6. Waiting for photographer
7. Possibly waiting for CSE - if the AI isn't trusted to recover his own samples.
8. Waiting for SIO (Came after my time, but they're bound to be stuck in a meeting somewhere) and gathering the rest of the troops.
9. Waiting for everything to be out of the way so you can have a final mooch about and make sure you've not missed anything because after a few thousand disgruntled drivers pass through, you're not going to find something you need
bigothunter said:
Muddle238 said:
I can assure you that the motorway is closed for the minimum amount of time possible. If that seems like a long time, then it's a good indication of the seriousness/complexity/other factors in the collision that warrant such a closure.
The authorities are under immense pressure to get the motorway open, one thing is for certain; you can be sure the investigation teams will be working as efficiently and as quickly as they can, but also diligently to ensure they don't rush and miss vital things. Also consider that at motorway speeds, collision scenes can actually span quite a large stretch of the motorway, so it's a large scene to look at in detail.
Another reason a motorway could be closed in both directions is due to fuel spillage or contamination of the road surface - it may need resurfacing if diesel has spilled across from the opposite side, for example. Resurfacing can take hours, depending on where the heavy plant is and how much of the motorway needs repairing.
Don't assume cameras "must" have recorded anything. As previously mentioned, CCTV isn't always pointing or zoomed in to the exact roadspace that a collision occurs and dashcan footage often has a habit of driving off into the sunset, which is of no use to investigators at the scene.
The authorities are under immense pressure to get the motorway open, one thing is for certain; you can be sure the investigation teams will be working as efficiently and as quickly as they can, but also diligently to ensure they don't rush and miss vital things. Also consider that at motorway speeds, collision scenes can actually span quite a large stretch of the motorway, so it's a large scene to look at in detail.
Another reason a motorway could be closed in both directions is due to fuel spillage or contamination of the road surface - it may need resurfacing if diesel has spilled across from the opposite side, for example. Resurfacing can take hours, depending on where the heavy plant is and how much of the motorway needs repairing.
Don't assume cameras "must" have recorded anything. As previously mentioned, CCTV isn't always pointing or zoomed in to the exact roadspace that a collision occurs and dashcan footage often has a habit of driving off into the sunset, which is of no use to investigators at the scene.
StressedDave said:
I stopped doing AI 20+ years ago, but looking at that scene, I can understand why it's still shut 6 hours later. Just a few factors:
1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
2. Someone has to do a fingertip search of that central reservation for trace evidence.
3. Entrapments or victim underneath vehicle but certified dead.
4. Waiting for hook - they've got to fight their way through the traffic to get there to recover the vehicles
5. Waiting for AI and vehicle examiner. You might want to interrogate the ECUs at the scene rather than worry about them losing their volatile memory after a day or so with the battery disconnected.
6. Waiting for photographer
7. Possibly waiting for CSE - if the AI isn't trusted to recover his own samples.
8. Waiting for SIO (Came after my time, but they're bound to be stuck in a meeting somewhere) and gathering the rest of the troops.
9. Waiting for everything to be out of the way so you can have a final mooch about and make sure you've not missed anything because after a few thousand disgruntled drivers pass through, you're not going to find something you need
Six from nine factors raised by an ex-AI cop involve waiting. Waiting and efficiency are not compatible. There's room for improvement if it's wanted.1. Dual carriageway with a grass central reservation. Lots to survey - I doubt the Police are using point cloud surveys so it's total station and bloke with a prism. You'd be surprised how inaccurate the OS Mastermap can be so sometimes you can't just drop your scene plan on it.
2. Someone has to do a fingertip search of that central reservation for trace evidence.
3. Entrapments or victim underneath vehicle but certified dead.
4. Waiting for hook - they've got to fight their way through the traffic to get there to recover the vehicles
5. Waiting for AI and vehicle examiner. You might want to interrogate the ECUs at the scene rather than worry about them losing their volatile memory after a day or so with the battery disconnected.
6. Waiting for photographer
7. Possibly waiting for CSE - if the AI isn't trusted to recover his own samples.
8. Waiting for SIO (Came after my time, but they're bound to be stuck in a meeting somewhere) and gathering the rest of the troops.
9. Waiting for everything to be out of the way so you can have a final mooch about and make sure you've not missed anything because after a few thousand disgruntled drivers pass through, you're not going to find something you need
Maybe we should put taxes up and have recovery agents on every junction to come and remove vehicles? They could be on standby 24/7, same with some of the other roles, it would save them having to battle through traffic etc.
E-bmw said:
Leveret said:
After a collision apparently involving only around four small vehicles and one fatality, the M-way was closed in both directions for hours and hours on end. Goodness knows how many tens of thousands of people were inconvenienced, some probably seriously. Why is this tolerated? Was this yet another example of the effect of this country's paralysing and ludicrously expensive jurocracy?
Feckin' idiot!As long as it takes to fully investigate the fatality to the satisfaction of the families concerned as you would expect if it were your loved ones involved.
ingenieur said:
E-bmw said:
Leveret said:
After a collision apparently involving only around four small vehicles and one fatality, the M-way was closed in both directions for hours and hours on end. Goodness knows how many tens of thousands of people were inconvenienced, some probably seriously. Why is this tolerated? Was this yet another example of the effect of this country's paralysing and ludicrously expensive jurocracy?
Feckin' idiot!As long as it takes to fully investigate the fatality to the satisfaction of the families concerned as you would expect if it were your loved ones involved.
Quite an appalling lack of empathy in some comments posted, certainly a lack of understanding too on how difficult RTCs can be to deal with in both a life saving perspective and the aftermath of fatal incidents.
Loads has changed in 20 years, not so much in my core role at an incident, but the capabilities in what we can do in our attempts to save life.
20-30 years ago car technology and safety was no where near the level its at today, with safety cells, crumple zones and materials used in modern vehicles providing a much stronger cell to be in.
The downside of this is that while stronger, when they do give in, it makes gaining access, and removing casualties sometimes extremely difficult and time consuming, especially if not time critical.
Anyone with suspected C spines injuries etc that aren't time critical becomes a (and rightly so) process of minimising movement and creating as much space as possible with the tools we have to extricate them from the vehicle without causing anymore injury.
If you have a 2, 3, 4 car rtc with multiple casualties, some time critical, some with entrapments within the vehicle, some with suspected spinal or neck injuries..and you can clearly see how it can take a long time to deal with, that's even before the police do their side of the investigation.
I can't speak for the procedures of the police in regards to investigations, but every rtc I've attend, the goal to open the roads and allow people to get underway has been front and centre unless work on casualties is still on going.
What may look like a relatively minor rtc can sometimes be incredibly complex to deal with from an emergency services point of view and takes time.
I know how frustrating it can be to deal with being stuck in traffic while this is happening, I really do, and people should be allowed to get home as soon possible.
But at any RTC, dealing with casualties, and if fatalities, the families involved take absolute priority.
Loads has changed in 20 years, not so much in my core role at an incident, but the capabilities in what we can do in our attempts to save life.
20-30 years ago car technology and safety was no where near the level its at today, with safety cells, crumple zones and materials used in modern vehicles providing a much stronger cell to be in.
The downside of this is that while stronger, when they do give in, it makes gaining access, and removing casualties sometimes extremely difficult and time consuming, especially if not time critical.
Anyone with suspected C spines injuries etc that aren't time critical becomes a (and rightly so) process of minimising movement and creating as much space as possible with the tools we have to extricate them from the vehicle without causing anymore injury.
If you have a 2, 3, 4 car rtc with multiple casualties, some time critical, some with entrapments within the vehicle, some with suspected spinal or neck injuries..and you can clearly see how it can take a long time to deal with, that's even before the police do their side of the investigation.
I can't speak for the procedures of the police in regards to investigations, but every rtc I've attend, the goal to open the roads and allow people to get underway has been front and centre unless work on casualties is still on going.
What may look like a relatively minor rtc can sometimes be incredibly complex to deal with from an emergency services point of view and takes time.
I know how frustrating it can be to deal with being stuck in traffic while this is happening, I really do, and people should be allowed to get home as soon possible.
But at any RTC, dealing with casualties, and if fatalities, the families involved take absolute priority.
ingenieur said:
Can I ask if anybody knows what has changed in the last 30-odd years which causes the roads to be closed for such a long time when something like this happens? Presumably the emotions of the families of the loved ones involved in any incident would still have been part of the equation? I don't think emotions are something we've only just started having?
A lot of evidence gathered at RTC helps in developing safety for us all. Knowing how a car actually behaves in a collision enables improvements to be made. For example throughout Europe data collected on how a certain car behaves in say I side intrusion incident can be used to improve that cars side protection. How barriers behave in accidents can be used to modify barriers. Whilst some of this used to go on, by gathering more data it gives a more accurate picture.
30 years ago it was likely a traffic officer with a tape measure that would build a picture of what had happened. Know they are dedicated officers who investigate collisions. They use data mapping and drones etc will interrogate cars data. They will look at Dashcams, CCTV etc.
People now want better answers (someone to blame) than your family member died in a car crash.
Also more cars on the road mean more people will have their travel plans disrupted if a road is closed.
Wacky Racer said:
I don't suppose the Police want to keep any road closed a minute longer than possible.
It's frustrating, but it takes as long as it takes.
Exactly.It's frustrating, but it takes as long as it takes.
And as someone who exists in the real world, have you actually tried to get something of any significance done in a working day from a cold start?
- Find out its happened.
- Dispatch first response.
- Work out what you need.
- Arrange resources to attend.
- Do all the work needed.
- Ensure you absolutely have all you need!
- Move and tidy up everything.
- Repair and reopen the road.
Even if you just wanted to snap a decent number of photos and get it all on the back of a waggon and moved away, its not going to be ten minute job.
Collectingbrass said:
ingenieur said:
E-bmw said:
Leveret said:
After a collision apparently involving only around four small vehicles and one fatality, the M-way was closed in both directions for hours and hours on end. Goodness knows how many tens of thousands of people were inconvenienced, some probably seriously. Why is this tolerated? Was this yet another example of the effect of this country's paralysing and ludicrously expensive jurocracy?
Feckin' idiot!As long as it takes to fully investigate the fatality to the satisfaction of the families concerned as you would expect if it were your loved ones involved.
This thread depresses me.
I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
oobster said:
This thread depresses me.
I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
Well said. It's seriously depressing that anyone can think like that.I can envisage some posters on here might be full of bravado behind a keyboard and would never express opinions in real life that would mark them out as being selfish tosspots to their family, friends, colleagues etc, but if some of you genuinely think that the emergency services are keeping the roads closed after a fatal RTC longer than they absolutely need to then you should seek psychiatric help.
A woman died in the incident being discussed in this thread in the last 24 hours. A woman who (probably) had no part in the police chase with the van. She probably had a family, a career, plans for the future, people who will be absolutely devastated by her death, and will continue to be devastated for many many years.
To think that the dead and injured should be carted off to hospital/morgue, vehicles chucked on a wagon and the broken glass & plastic swept into the gutter without doing any kind of scene analysis, measurements, photographs & video, witness details taken etc is madness. If there is any culpability that can be ascertained and prosecuted then the evidence must be gathered properly.
Can any of you expressing the views that motorways are being closed for too long after serious incidents have any empathy with the family of the deceased? Would YOU want someone who was responsible for a loved one's death to walk free because evidence wasn't gathered properly?
After typing the above I thought I'd go check what time of day this incident on the M25 happened and I have just found out that a 2nd person has died as a result of the collision.
4am this M25 incident happened, on a Sunday morning, mobilising all of the resources required at the scene would inevitably take longer at that time of day.
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