Jury duty - unable to get childcare, options?
Discussion
Sheepshanks said:
Recent case near me, beyond the initial letter, but: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgyvkee9gvo#:...
I posted my reply before this. That's interesting thanks and confirms my thoughts on the 'first letter'.Davie said:
I rang the court yesterday, spoke to a lady who at least sounded sympathetic or was a good actress and seemed a bit surprised when I relayed the previous email response to her but advised I / we reply to said email, again reiterating the situation and if refused again, advised we could request that it be "escalated" for review.
However, upon returning home last night there was a letter from the courts dated the 8th...
The fact you received that letter doesn't negate the lady's advice (to reply again to the email reiterating the request and, if refused again, requesting that it be escalated for review). However, upon returning home last night there was a letter from the courts dated the 8th...
MaxFromage said:
The Juries Act 1974 does include a presumption of service.
The summary on Gov.uk state:
'You must respond to your jury summons within 7 days of getting it.
You can either:
reply to the jury summons online
complete and return the form by post
You can be fined up to £1,000 if you do not return the form or turn up for your jury service.'
The whole process is ludicrous. The summary on Gov.uk state:
'You must respond to your jury summons within 7 days of getting it.
You can either:
reply to the jury summons online
complete and return the form by post
You can be fined up to £1,000 if you do not return the form or turn up for your jury service.'
What if I'm on my annual two week summer holiday? The summons sits on the mat for a fortnight.
Away travelling? Do the people who make these rules live in the real world?
There are probably a load of bored retired people who are intrigued about and would be happy to sit on a jury but never get asked. Yes, I know, we need a broad spectrum of people of all ages to make up a jury rather than twelve OAPS but by crikey there must be a better way or rather, a better list of exemptions. "Day to day carer of pre-school children" should be on that list.
PurpleTurtle said:
The whole process is ludicrous.
What if I'm on my annual two week summer holiday? The summons sits on the mat for a fortnight.
Away travelling? Do the people who make these rules live in the real world?
There are probably a load of bored retired people who are intrigued about and would be happy to sit on a jury but never get asked. Yes, I know, we need a broad spectrum of people of all ages to make up a jury rather than twelve OAPS but by crikey there must be a better way or rather, a better list of exemptions. "Day to day carer of pre-school children" should be on that list.
Or courts could have daycare, then parents are not unreasonably burdened by what should be the duty of all citizens.What if I'm on my annual two week summer holiday? The summons sits on the mat for a fortnight.
Away travelling? Do the people who make these rules live in the real world?
There are probably a load of bored retired people who are intrigued about and would be happy to sit on a jury but never get asked. Yes, I know, we need a broad spectrum of people of all ages to make up a jury rather than twelve OAPS but by crikey there must be a better way or rather, a better list of exemptions. "Day to day carer of pre-school children" should be on that list.
hidetheelephants said:
PurpleTurtle said:
The whole process is ludicrous.
What if I'm on my annual two week summer holiday? The summons sits on the mat for a fortnight.
Away travelling? Do the people who make these rules live in the real world?
There are probably a load of bored retired people who are intrigued about and would be happy to sit on a jury but never get asked. Yes, I know, we need a broad spectrum of people of all ages to make up a jury rather than twelve OAPS but by crikey there must be a better way or rather, a better list of exemptions. "Day to day carer of pre-school children" should be on that list.
Or courts could have daycare, then parents are not unreasonably burdened by what should be the duty of all citizens.What if I'm on my annual two week summer holiday? The summons sits on the mat for a fortnight.
Away travelling? Do the people who make these rules live in the real world?
There are probably a load of bored retired people who are intrigued about and would be happy to sit on a jury but never get asked. Yes, I know, we need a broad spectrum of people of all ages to make up a jury rather than twelve OAPS but by crikey there must be a better way or rather, a better list of exemptions. "Day to day carer of pre-school children" should be on that list.
Just contemplating the options if either Mrs D or I were called up... Really wouldn't be possible for either of us to be available 10-4 plus travel time without the other going to some sort of reduced hours arrangement, with a corresponding loss to income as well as seriously pissing off our employers.
Sure, they can't sack you for it but it affects the intangible "career development".
Sheepshanks said:
WrekinCrew said:
JagLad said:
I haven't looked at the legislation concerning a jury summons. However, my guess is that if you do that, you will be in the same position as somebody who fails to respond to a Section 172 Request, asking for driver's details at the time of an alleged offence. The Interpretation Act provides for a "presumption of service" (two working days after posting). If my guess is correct, if the recipient of a jury summons fails to respond to it it is likely he will be prosecuted and if his defence is that the summons failed to arrive it will be his burden to prove it.
You get plenty of notice (2 months in my case) and the summons says you must reply within 7 days - you can do so online. I did and all further correspondence has been by email and confirmed by post.I guess if you don't respond they will reissue; possibly by signed-for post.
Failure to reply or failure to turn up at court "is a criminal offence and you could be fined up to £1000"
Perhaps unfortunate that she got a Judge who has got a bee in his bonnet about this. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-4...
Edited by Sheepshanks on Thursday 11th July 13:26
MaxFromage said:
Sheepshanks said:
Recent case near me, beyond the initial letter, but: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgyvkee9gvo#:...
I posted my reply before this. That's interesting thanks and confirms my thoughts on the 'first letter'.
Thanks folks, some constructive points contained which is appreciated.
To recap, I haven't been called for jury duty (ever in fact) however my wife was called last June and excused, not deferred thus no requirement to provide dates for future inclusion. She would like to do jury duty and would make herself willingly available if it wasn't during school holidays and not so we can jolly off to the beach, but because we do not reply on childcare... ever. The most childcare we've used in their collective 9yrs is the odd weekend at Nanas house. They don't go to pre-school clubs, we don't have an au pair, we don't send them to friends after school. My wife has previously worked term times and is fortunate in that she could do drop off / pick up. And yes, we're based in Scotland.
As far as the birthday goes and suck it up... I agree to an extent and no, I won't be off for said birthday as unfortunately due to a very heavy workload / colleagues being off, I couldn't get said small humans birthday off, no mine a couple of days later. A shame, but I've sucked it up. I am off the following week for a few days, which along with the above... means work is extremely full on on the week my wife has been called thus, me taking unplanned leave for childcare will go down like a lead balloon. Financially, I'm not bothered short term but if said case turned into weeks, unpaid leave simply isn't an option and whilst the courts will reimburse any "registered childcare" they won't reimburse my losses.
The other rather large factor that is causing a bit of distress is that we are mostly men I assume and by that we bugger off back to work after 2 weeks paternity and we... or at least I have been leaving the house for the past 6 / 7yrs in the morning to go to work. My wife hasn't. My wife also gave up a career to be a Mum, she didn't want to put work first... we didn't want to use childcare, we don't. So whilst yes, I can suck it up, miss birthdays and be a little less emotionally charged... my wife doesn't feel quite the same, but she'd manage and she'd manage to arrange the kids to be looked after for a few hours here and there, but longer term / full time... to go to do jury service, she's struggling.
We could scrape some childcare for a few hours but as said, local child minders can't help more so as to odd one or two within reasonable distance who aren't booked or taking time off and it's "How long and when?" Errr, yeah we've no idea actually. We've limited family, the kids have only ever stayed with my Mum who's unfortunately in pretty poor health so simply cannot manage a 3yr old and 6yr old full time and my wife's mother is still working as are her sister and trusted friends, who are also trying to juggle work and childcare through the summer holidays. I have my sister but she's also juggling her own infant as a single Mum. So again whilst the odd few hours is doable, this unknown time scale isn't something we can work round and arrange longer term, full time child care.
However, my wife has replied to the initial email which refused to excuse her and has referenced the letter received thereafter stating "no decision can be made just now / we'll come back to you a week before" and I get the impression she didn't miss and hit the wall when drawing reference to the letter and how it's made matters worse. She's requested that the matter be escalated for review and / or a decision one way or another and with more than a week's notice as that simply isn't reasonable time to try and make arrangements, not that we can full time / long term.
I am very frustrated on so many levels and feel quite helpless both as a dad and as a potential jury candidate. I feel myself screaming "Spare my wife, take me instead" which to be honest would solve the issue completely as my work would be bound to grant time off, I'd be paid and we'd have no childcare issues. Granted we're meant to be on holiday as off mid August but I did point that out to my wife last night and I think the realisation that this could be a long haul case also set in. I think up till that point she'd be thinking a few days max. That did little to help.
Thee is obviously the outside chance that she'll call on the Sunday evening before and they'll tell her Gary has pleaded guilty to his third robbery this week and this will all have been a stress for nothing. However, what we can't do is be sat on Sunday night then suddenly be wondering what we're meant to do with the kids as of the Monday morning... and for how long. Yes we have our civic duty and we'll both gladly do it but currently, my wife is finding that notion extremely hard to cope with simply due to a lack of childcare for our children, one of whom is pre-school. However had this come up in say, September... she'd be there, kids dropped at 9, to the court and we could arrange an hour or so after school between other mums / granny until she or I got home. But it's not September, it's the middle of the school holidays and that's the issue.
My issue is as father / husband / protector / provider I'm having to stand back and watch how much this is upsetting her especially when it's summer holidays and she's got the kids day in, day out which I'm sure wears thing after the first day or two. She'd actually probably love a stint in the court without somebody asking if we're there yet or looking for her to wipe their bum. Anyways, again appreciate the input and the chance to vent... sadly I'm just hoping this doesn't tip her over the edge as things are already pretty tough just now but such is life, suck it up buttercup etc etc.
Cheers
To recap, I haven't been called for jury duty (ever in fact) however my wife was called last June and excused, not deferred thus no requirement to provide dates for future inclusion. She would like to do jury duty and would make herself willingly available if it wasn't during school holidays and not so we can jolly off to the beach, but because we do not reply on childcare... ever. The most childcare we've used in their collective 9yrs is the odd weekend at Nanas house. They don't go to pre-school clubs, we don't have an au pair, we don't send them to friends after school. My wife has previously worked term times and is fortunate in that she could do drop off / pick up. And yes, we're based in Scotland.
As far as the birthday goes and suck it up... I agree to an extent and no, I won't be off for said birthday as unfortunately due to a very heavy workload / colleagues being off, I couldn't get said small humans birthday off, no mine a couple of days later. A shame, but I've sucked it up. I am off the following week for a few days, which along with the above... means work is extremely full on on the week my wife has been called thus, me taking unplanned leave for childcare will go down like a lead balloon. Financially, I'm not bothered short term but if said case turned into weeks, unpaid leave simply isn't an option and whilst the courts will reimburse any "registered childcare" they won't reimburse my losses.
The other rather large factor that is causing a bit of distress is that we are mostly men I assume and by that we bugger off back to work after 2 weeks paternity and we... or at least I have been leaving the house for the past 6 / 7yrs in the morning to go to work. My wife hasn't. My wife also gave up a career to be a Mum, she didn't want to put work first... we didn't want to use childcare, we don't. So whilst yes, I can suck it up, miss birthdays and be a little less emotionally charged... my wife doesn't feel quite the same, but she'd manage and she'd manage to arrange the kids to be looked after for a few hours here and there, but longer term / full time... to go to do jury service, she's struggling.
We could scrape some childcare for a few hours but as said, local child minders can't help more so as to odd one or two within reasonable distance who aren't booked or taking time off and it's "How long and when?" Errr, yeah we've no idea actually. We've limited family, the kids have only ever stayed with my Mum who's unfortunately in pretty poor health so simply cannot manage a 3yr old and 6yr old full time and my wife's mother is still working as are her sister and trusted friends, who are also trying to juggle work and childcare through the summer holidays. I have my sister but she's also juggling her own infant as a single Mum. So again whilst the odd few hours is doable, this unknown time scale isn't something we can work round and arrange longer term, full time child care.
However, my wife has replied to the initial email which refused to excuse her and has referenced the letter received thereafter stating "no decision can be made just now / we'll come back to you a week before" and I get the impression she didn't miss and hit the wall when drawing reference to the letter and how it's made matters worse. She's requested that the matter be escalated for review and / or a decision one way or another and with more than a week's notice as that simply isn't reasonable time to try and make arrangements, not that we can full time / long term.
I am very frustrated on so many levels and feel quite helpless both as a dad and as a potential jury candidate. I feel myself screaming "Spare my wife, take me instead" which to be honest would solve the issue completely as my work would be bound to grant time off, I'd be paid and we'd have no childcare issues. Granted we're meant to be on holiday as off mid August but I did point that out to my wife last night and I think the realisation that this could be a long haul case also set in. I think up till that point she'd be thinking a few days max. That did little to help.
Thee is obviously the outside chance that she'll call on the Sunday evening before and they'll tell her Gary has pleaded guilty to his third robbery this week and this will all have been a stress for nothing. However, what we can't do is be sat on Sunday night then suddenly be wondering what we're meant to do with the kids as of the Monday morning... and for how long. Yes we have our civic duty and we'll both gladly do it but currently, my wife is finding that notion extremely hard to cope with simply due to a lack of childcare for our children, one of whom is pre-school. However had this come up in say, September... she'd be there, kids dropped at 9, to the court and we could arrange an hour or so after school between other mums / granny until she or I got home. But it's not September, it's the middle of the school holidays and that's the issue.
My issue is as father / husband / protector / provider I'm having to stand back and watch how much this is upsetting her especially when it's summer holidays and she's got the kids day in, day out which I'm sure wears thing after the first day or two. She'd actually probably love a stint in the court without somebody asking if we're there yet or looking for her to wipe their bum. Anyways, again appreciate the input and the chance to vent... sadly I'm just hoping this doesn't tip her over the edge as things are already pretty tough just now but such is life, suck it up buttercup etc etc.
Cheers
Sheepshanks said:
Recent case near me, beyond the initial letter, but: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crgyvkee9gvo#:...
Perhaps unfortunate that she got a Judge who has got a bee in his bonnet about this. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-4...
So you don't have to do jury service, it just costs you a grand not to?Perhaps unfortunate that she got a Judge who has got a bee in his bonnet about this. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-4...
I think jury duty is important, and I'd do it if I could when asked, but I can imagine times/scenarios where I'd be fine with that as the cost of doing business.
eMail response just in...
"Good afternoon.
Thanks for your email.
We can only reconsider your request for excusal 1 week prior to the trial commencing, please email us then and we can re-consider the request.
Kind regards"
Request for it to be escalated hasn't be acknowledged... or perhaps that's it.
My thoughts now are whether I bring this to my employers attention and plant the seed that I may have no choice but to take unplanned leave for an unknown period as of the early August. At least that'd give some forewarning of a potential absence. Or do I simply not turn up on the first day and deal with the consequences thereafter. I can't work from home either, nature of the role dictates it's not viable. Either way, it's not a great position for me to be in but it is what it is and we really do not have any other workable options.
This is one of these situations where we've worked extremely hard to keep day to day life ticking along, heads just above the water and praying that nothing comes along to tip the balance as that could send it all crashing down. And here we are. However I shall remain pragmatic and remind myself none of us are dead nor dying but life could change at a moments notice so in the bigger scale of things, we'll just have to roll with the punches. Wife, who survives on routine and planning has been using quite a few sweary words in amongst more tears.
I just want it done and off the table either way now. Sadly this is going to hang over us and drag us back for the foreseeable future... which is what incensed my wife when the "we can't make a decision letter" arrived. My wife doesn't do indecisiveness, more so when the kids are involved.
Anybody got a spare room I can take cover in for a few weeks?
"Good afternoon.
Thanks for your email.
We can only reconsider your request for excusal 1 week prior to the trial commencing, please email us then and we can re-consider the request.
Kind regards"
Request for it to be escalated hasn't be acknowledged... or perhaps that's it.
My thoughts now are whether I bring this to my employers attention and plant the seed that I may have no choice but to take unplanned leave for an unknown period as of the early August. At least that'd give some forewarning of a potential absence. Or do I simply not turn up on the first day and deal with the consequences thereafter. I can't work from home either, nature of the role dictates it's not viable. Either way, it's not a great position for me to be in but it is what it is and we really do not have any other workable options.
This is one of these situations where we've worked extremely hard to keep day to day life ticking along, heads just above the water and praying that nothing comes along to tip the balance as that could send it all crashing down. And here we are. However I shall remain pragmatic and remind myself none of us are dead nor dying but life could change at a moments notice so in the bigger scale of things, we'll just have to roll with the punches. Wife, who survives on routine and planning has been using quite a few sweary words in amongst more tears.
I just want it done and off the table either way now. Sadly this is going to hang over us and drag us back for the foreseeable future... which is what incensed my wife when the "we can't make a decision letter" arrived. My wife doesn't do indecisiveness, more so when the kids are involved.
Anybody got a spare room I can take cover in for a few weeks?
Southerner said:
What are your thoughts, out of interest? It sounds as if she initially responded but then went awol, and the recorded delivery letter was a demand to answer the jury service she had already acknowledged that she was due to carry out?
Agreed. Rather stupid. But that and the other link suggests they really don't want to prosecute and are also aware of the flaws in the system. The first letter brings in a pool of jurors. Further letters, who knows. The system clearly doesn't have resources to chase those who don't reply.MaxFromage said:
Southerner said:
What are your thoughts, out of interest? It sounds as if she initially responded but then went awol, and the recorded delivery letter was a demand to answer the jury service she had already acknowledged that she was due to carry out?
Agreed. Rather stupid. But that and the other link suggests they really don't want to prosecute and are also aware of the flaws in the system. The first letter brings in a pool of jurors. Further letters, who knows. The system clearly doesn't have resources to chase those who don't reply.As for the judge in that BBC article apparently shocked and horrified at people discussing how to get out of it, perhaps he’s as detached from reality as all the stereotypes suggest - it goes without saying that people have been having those conversations for generations, long before “internet chat rooms” existed, that should hardly be a surprise. And, to be perfectly honest, unless the courts are struggling to function due to a lack of people turning up for jury service - seems unlikely - I’d have thought it best to leave those who dodge jury service to get on with it; nobody really wants jurors turning up who object to being there, surely? If I was waiting for 12 randomers to decide whether or not I deserved to retain my freedom, I’d rather not have folk who didn’t want to be there and quite possibly had a bit of a mood on about it!
Sir Bagalot said:
I would simply reply saying that she's a full time Mum. You don't use childcare for a reason.
If they still won't play ball then simply rock up on Day 1 with two kids in tow. Will soon be excused.
That and tell them you have already decided the person is guilty. Surely they would tell you to clear off rather than risk you just voting guilty. If they still won't play ball then simply rock up on Day 1 with two kids in tow. Will soon be excused.
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