New TVR still under wraps!

Author
Discussion

skwdenyer

6,410 posts

177 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
Penelope Stopit said:
skwdenyer said:
Penelope Stopit said:
That appears to be an actuator motor for variable geometry applications. Unsure how that is relevant?
Mmmm that page was a touch misleading wasn't it

Heres a good article http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/13063/honeywell...
Gotcha. So a supercharger wink

Nothing new under the sun, however - look up compound and differential turbo/supercharging. Arguably the electric part of this is actually inefficient - could just as well couple the turbo to the crankshaft through, say, a fluid coupling. Also look up the Napier Deltic.

Once you do that, you then realise that you can take it the other way - use the turbocharger shaft to add power to the crankshaft. So the turbo can be larger (because it is no longer lag-constrained).

A bigger turbo still could be installed, if only there was more energy. So you inject a little extra fuel upstream of the turbo and burn that off. Hurrah.

A little while later, you see that the ICE is now just a sort of gas generator for the turbo. And not a very efficient one at that. So you get rid of it completely, and now you have... a gas turbine smile

I've saved you a few evolutionary steps there. That Jag almost-production-car of a few years back with a turbine or two was the natural evolution of all of that - and may yet still be a great choice for the future.

Penelope Stopit

3,611 posts

46 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
Penelope Stopit said:
skwdenyer said:
Penelope Stopit said:
That appears to be an actuator motor for variable geometry applications. Unsure how that is relevant?
Mmmm that page was a touch misleading wasn't it

Heres a good article http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/13063/honeywell...
Gotcha. So a supercharger wink

Nothing new under the sun, however - look up compound and differential turbo/supercharging. Arguably the electric part of this is actually inefficient - could just as well couple the turbo to the crankshaft through, say, a fluid coupling. Also look up the Napier Deltic.

Once you do that, you then realise that you can take it the other way - use the turbocharger shaft to add power to the crankshaft. So the turbo can be larger (because it is no longer lag-constrained).

A bigger turbo still could be installed, if only there was more energy. So you inject a little extra fuel upstream of the turbo and burn that off. Hurrah.

A little while later, you see that the ICE is now just a sort of gas generator for the turbo. And not a very efficient one at that. So you get rid of it completely, and now you have... a gas turbine smile

I've saved you a few evolutionary steps there. That Jag almost-production-car of a few years back with a turbine or two was the natural evolution of all of that - and may yet still be a great choice for the future.
Thank you very much for your posting of all this information, I have often wondered why electric motors weren't used in the past for the initial boost until the turbocharger got up to speed, I am guessing that motor technology was the issue
Until now I didn't know anything about the Napier Deltic, I have read through this page https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-tech/engine/sign... and found it very interesting, "all those gears". Happy new year


skwdenyer

6,410 posts

177 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
Glad you saw that fantastic beast albeit by accident - I was actually intending to point you to the Napier Nomad rather than the Deltic... and from there to the more general issue of turbo compounding:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-compound_eng...

and from there to the electric turbo compound that follows:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_turbo_com...

Edited by skwdenyer on Thursday 3rd January 12:09

Penelope Stopit

3,611 posts

46 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
Thank you once again, I have visited these latest links and found them extremely interesting, the Napier Nomad 1 image taken at a museum is very nice
Although I have rebuilt 3 petrol engines I am not an engine man, electrics are what I've been known to play with, I knew nothing about these engines and their turbine technology, your efforts are much appreciated

spagbogdog

612 posts

197 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
^^^^
My kinda engine...

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dvs_dave

5,250 posts

162 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
essexstu said:
Great clip. Looks soooo much better in a dark reflex purple color. Hides the gormless grin.

Not sure how old that vid is as it’s got the purple wrap on it from the motor show, but it seems like they’ve done something with the exhausts note. Sounds a lot better. Much bassier, less lopsided, and the VW beetle esque whistle/tweet is not there. Sounds just like an SLR which is only a good thing.

dvs_dave

5,250 posts

162 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
Gotcha. So a supercharger wink

Nothing new under the sun, however - look up compound and differential turbo/supercharging. Arguably the electric part of this is actually inefficient - could just as well couple the turbo to the crankshaft through, say, a fluid coupling. Also look up the Napier Deltic.

Once you do that, you then realise that you can take it the other way - use the turbocharger shaft to add power to the crankshaft. So the turbo can be larger (because it is no longer lag-constrained).

A bigger turbo still could be installed, if only there was more energy. So you inject a little extra fuel upstream of the turbo and burn that off. Hurrah.

A little while later, you see that the ICE is now just a sort of gas generator for the turbo. And not a very efficient one at that. So you get rid of it completely, and now you have... a gas turbine smile

I've saved you a few evolutionary steps there. That Jag almost-production-car of a few years back with a turbine or two was the natural evolution of all of that - and may yet still be a great choice for the future.
It’s not a supercharger. It’s an electrically assisted turbocharger. The electric motor is just to assist the turbo getting up to speed in the first few seconds of acceleration, not to be in use constantly. Once it’s up to speed the motor is de-energised and the exhaust gasses are doing all the work just like in a conventional turbo charger. The main benefit of doing this is to enable a larger turbo to be fitted, but it not to suffer from the traditional lag that would ensue without e-assist. It also greatly simplifies the installation as you only need one larger turbo, not multiple small turbos, or sequential turbos that are tuned to operate at different engine speeds. One e-turbo can operate effectively over a much broader engine speed range, and without lag. It also has the benefit of being able to reverse its function when conditions are right to act as a generator to power the vehicles electrical/hybrid system using what would otherwise be wasted exhaust heat energy.

Gas turbines in cars though I think have been comprehensively proved as a non-starter over the years. They’re not at all efficient in transient speed environments, and they’re very slow to respond. An e-assist gas turbine could solve the response issue, but you’d still be dealing with it’s inherent lack of efficiency, and effectively managing the huge amounts of hot exhaust gasses and noise.

Only way it makes sense in a road vehicle is as a range extender unit for an electric vehicle where it can run at a constant and efficient speed. You’d still have the significant packaging issues that would be created by having to deal with the exhaust gas and noise. wankel engines are a better option for this purpose.

Penelope Stopit

3,611 posts

46 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
dvs_dave said:
skwdenyer said:
Gotcha. So a supercharger wink

Nothing new under the sun, however - look up compound and differential turbo/supercharging. Arguably the electric part of this is actually inefficient - could just as well couple the turbo to the crankshaft through, say, a fluid coupling. Also look up the Napier Deltic.

Once you do that, you then realise that you can take it the other way - use the turbocharger shaft to add power to the crankshaft. So the turbo can be larger (because it is no longer lag-constrained).

A bigger turbo still could be installed, if only there was more energy. So you inject a little extra fuel upstream of the turbo and burn that off. Hurrah.

A little while later, you see that the ICE is now just a sort of gas generator for the turbo. And not a very efficient one at that. So you get rid of it completely, and now you have... a gas turbine smile

I've saved you a few evolutionary steps there. That Jag almost-production-car of a few years back with a turbine or two was the natural evolution of all of that - and may yet still be a great choice for the future.
It’s not a supercharger. It’s an electrically assisted turbocharger. The electric motor is just to assist the turbo getting up to speed in the first few seconds of acceleration, not to be in use constantly. Once it’s up to speed the motor is de-energised and the exhaust gasses are doing all the work just like in a conventional turbo charger. The main benefit of doing this is to enable a larger turbo to be fitted, but it not to suffer from the traditional lag that would ensue without e-assist. It also greatly simplifies the installation as you only need one larger turbo, not multiple small turbos, or sequential turbos that are tuned to operate at different engine speeds. One e-turbo can operate effectively over a much broader engine speed range, and without lag. It also has the benefit of being able to reverse its function when conditions are right to act as a generator to power the vehicles electrical/hybrid system using what would otherwise be wasted exhaust heat energy.

Gas turbines in cars though I think have been comprehensively proved as a non-starter over the years. They’re not at all efficient in transient speed environments, and they’re very slow to respond. An e-assist gas turbine could solve the response issue, but you’d still be dealing with it’s inherent lack of efficiency, and effectively managing the huge amounts of hot exhaust gasses and noise.

Only way it makes sense in a road vehicle is as a range extender unit for an electric vehicle where it can run at a constant and efficient speed. You’d still have the significant packaging issues that would be created by having to deal with the exhaust gas and noise. wankel engines are a better option for this purpose.
Interesting post. I consider skwdenyer to be correct in naming it a supercharger, Turbos are driven by gases and superchargers are mechanically driven, being driven by an electric motor is to be mechanically driven, in which case it is a supercharger at low revs and becomes a turbocharger as the revs increase enough for the gases to turn it fast enough or it remains a supercharger if permanently motor driven


Edited by Penelope Stopit on Thursday 3rd January 20:22

spagbogdog

612 posts

197 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
Have just watched Shmee’s latest opus..
Ford Gt
650 bhp
1360kg
Carbon tub and bodywork
Very plasticy and rather boring interior
Way too many buttons
Horrid steering wheel
No boot
No storage
No manual gearbox
Small rear diffuser
Aero EVERYTHING
Cost £360,000
(((VERY cool front lights)))

Methinks Les will have a very big grin on his face when he’s seen that video...
yesyesyes



dvs_dave

5,250 posts

162 months

Thursday 3rd January
quotequote all
Penelope Stopit said:
Interesting post. I consider skwdenyer to be correct in naming it a supercharger, Turbos are driven by gases and superchargers are mechanically driven, being driven by an electric motor is to be mechanically driven, in which case it is a supercharger at low revs and becomes a turbocharger as the revs increase enough for the gases to turn it fast enough or it remains a supercharger if permanently motor driven


Edited by Penelope Stopit on Thursday 3rd January 20:22
But it’s still primarily and at all times being driven by exhaust gasses. The electric motor is only operational for the short periods of time needed to accelerate the turbine up to speed quicker than exhaust gasses alone can. It’s not to provide the majority of the energy needed to drive the turbine as that still comes from the exhaust gasses. 99% of the time it’s operating as a conventional turbocharger. The remaining 1% of the time, it’s being driven by both exhaust gas and the electric motor. It’s still very much a turbocharger as it’s 100% reliant upon recovering exhaust gas energy to sustain its operation. That is not the case for a supercharger which is 100% reliant upon an outside mechanical energy source that doesn’t come from the exhaust to sustain its operation.

Edited by dvs_dave on Friday 4th January 00:26

N7GTX

3,736 posts

80 months

Friday 4th January
quotequote all
Well, we just can not let essexstu down and let this thread die away. rolleyes

For those who have seen the car in person (I haven't) I'm interested in the interior. The pics look okay to me but is this the finished article or are there going to be changes to the instruments? There were some earlier comments about the 'Space Invader' styling so is there likely to be a change to 'normal' gauges? Has Les spoken to anyone about this?

phazed

17,064 posts

141 months

Friday 4th January
quotequote all
Seen it twice.

Interior looks good but not outstanding like the later T cars and cerbs.

V6 Pushfit

10,001 posts

47 months

Saturday 5th January
quotequote all
Of all the people involved - Welsh Government wallahs, TVR bods, Contractors pricing the work, subcontractors of TVR etc etc - there has to be someone who is on PH, or someone on PH who knows someone involved.

...so I’m surprised there haven’t been any ‘inside track’ posts here to give a bit of insight and update outside of the rare-to-nil TVR official comms.

It’s not exactly like they’re building this is it


RichB

40,951 posts

221 months

Saturday 5th January
quotequote all
V6 Pushfit said:
Sorry to go off at at tangent but those signs always make me laugh rofl

mattus

158 posts

137 months

Sunday 6th January
quotequote all
For many of the reasons already cited on this forum , i’ve also decided to cancel my deposit. ; i received the refund last week . I was a ‘top 50 ‘ deposit holder.
All the best to TVR and the deposit holders , but meanwhile i felt it time to move on ....

Moderator edit: no advertising please


Edited by jeremyc on Sunday 6th January 21:04

Testarossa

1,003 posts

158 months

Monday 7th January
quotequote all
Sorry to hear you go and hope you enjoy whatever you have set your mind on. Anybody else who has an early car, please can you offer your slot to somebody way down the list? Maybe just ask for a refund and say you would like X to take your place or something?

I would have loved to have been one of the first.

Yes, yes I know, it may never happen etc. but if it did, at least the wait would have been less smile

Mclaren 720s are dropping, lot of car for the money!

Madest Mike

12 posts

31 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
Like a number on this thread I have also had my deposit returned. I was simply not prepared to wait in the absence of any clear communication as to when delivery would be.

Sadly when so much has been promised and so little delivered you cannot but begin to question the whole ability to deliver.

As the excuses pile you cannot begin to wonder did nobody plan or see these issue coming in TVR. The issues hinted at as causing delay should all have been known and expected, planned for and managed and perhaps overcome in the ordinary course of buidling a new car. Surely those at GMD would have known much of this and those advising of getting in bed with the Welsh would have expalined the need to comply with EU tenders etc.

The execution all seems to have been a bit home made. The maketing and communication especially.....the brand ambassador for 100k motor is bloke who spends his time grinning into an Iphone on the end of a selfie stick (and by the way good look to him for making living at that). But its hardly apirational branding.

Congratulations to TVR for having ago...good luck.


BJWoods

4,801 posts

221 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
Madest Mike said:
Like a number on this thread I have also had my deposit returned. I was simply not prepared to wait in the absence of any clear communication as to when delivery would be.

Sadly when so much has been promised and so little delivered you cannot but begin to question the whole ability to deliver.

As the excuses pile you cannot begin to wonder did nobody plan or see these issue coming in TVR. The issues hinted at as causing delay should all have been known and expected, planned for and managed and perhaps overcome in the ordinary course of buidling a new car. Surely those at GMD would have known much of this and those advising of getting in bed with the Welsh would have expalined the need to comply with EU tenders etc.

The execution all seems to have been a bit home made. The maketing and communication especially.....the brand ambassador for 100k motor is bloke who spends his time grinning into an Iphone on the end of a selfie stick (and by the way good look to him for making living at that). But its hardly apirational branding.

Congratulations to TVR for having ago...good luck.
... given that that same ambassador does the sane thing for Mclaren.. having just bought a Senna.. is that really a bad thing..(and a serial Mclaren owner) he will get that car to a very wide audience.. As Aston, Mclaren and Ford see the value.. (he also just bought the new Ford GT!!) Of his audience, why not

El stovey

24,476 posts

200 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
BJWoods said:
... given that that same ambassador does the sane thing for Mclaren.. having just bought a Senna.. is that really a bad thing..(and a serial Mclaren owner) he will get that car to a very wide audience.. As Aston, Mclaren and Ford see the value.. (he also just bought the new Ford GT!!) Of his audience, why not
Is that a formal arrangement with Aston, McLaren and Ford or has he simply bought those cars. TVR seem to be actually using it in their advertising.

Each to their own but it obviously doesn’t appeal to everyone, as seen above.

PGNSagaris

1,957 posts

103 months

Tuesday 8th January
quotequote all
spagbogdog said:
Have just watched Shmee’s latest opus..
Ford Gt
650 bhp
1360kg
Carbon tub and bodywork
Very plasticy and rather boring interior
Way too many buttons
Horrid steering wheel
No boot
No storage
No manual gearbox
Small rear diffuser
Aero EVERYTHING
Cost £360,000
(((VERY cool front lights)))

Methinks Les will have a very big grin on his face when he’s seen that video...
yesyesyes
are you on crack Spag? You're comparing the Ford GT to the 'potential' new TVR?

rofl

Well, what I can't fault is your searing optimism for the new Griff, despite the way it looks and everything else around it.