Tamora in Britin's Best Drivers Car 2002 - Autocar
Discussion
I suspect the scope of the survey can be narrowed to get at what we're all really interested in: seeing if there is an improvement in the reliability of the Speed 6 engine.
So, for S6 engines only, we need to know:
- age of car.
- how many times the engine has had significant rebuild work (return to factory).
- date of last rebuild.
From this we should hopefully be able to guage any trends in reliability improvement.
Of course, it can all be anonomised. I suspect that it may be difficult for PetrolTed to host this as TVR may not be best pleased.
IMO what is needed is a clear statement from TVR on a) the problems that have been experienced; and b) the fixes that have been implemented. Until that time, it might have to be alternate (unofficial) information that will (hopefully) help prospective buyers move to the newer generation S6 engined TVRs.
So, for S6 engines only, we need to know:
- age of car.
- how many times the engine has had significant rebuild work (return to factory).
- date of last rebuild.
From this we should hopefully be able to guage any trends in reliability improvement.
Of course, it can all be anonomised. I suspect that it may be difficult for PetrolTed to host this as TVR may not be best pleased.
IMO what is needed is a clear statement from TVR on a) the problems that have been experienced; and b) the fixes that have been implemented. Until that time, it might have to be alternate (unofficial) information that will (hopefully) help prospective buyers move to the newer generation S6 engined TVRs.
I think half the problem is that TVR are, metaphorically speaking, holding their hands over their ears and saying "nyahh nyahh nyahh I can't hear you nyahh nyahh are you saying something?" to the problem.
I think it would be far better to say "yes, there has been a problem with the S6 eangine. We are aware of it, we believe we have fixed it, here are the steps we have taken".
This kind of grown-up attitude would pay dividends in customer trust and the perceived value of the brand.
Which reminds me of a Cold War joke that seems strangely appropraite
Q. How many Russians (USSR pre-breakup variety) does it take to change a lighbulb?
A. Nyet! None! All lightbulbs work in the glorious Soviet Socialist Rebublic!
I think it would be far better to say "yes, there has been a problem with the S6 eangine. We are aware of it, we believe we have fixed it, here are the steps we have taken".
This kind of grown-up attitude would pay dividends in customer trust and the perceived value of the brand.
Which reminds me of a Cold War joke that seems strangely appropraite
Q. How many Russians (USSR pre-breakup variety) does it take to change a lighbulb?
A. Nyet! None! All lightbulbs work in the glorious Soviet Socialist Rebublic!
quote:
Sorry got to disagree a bit, none of the other cars blew up and any tvr that is only a couple of months off the production line should have withstood a few laps of goodwood without blowing up. They should not need to provide a special one which wont blow up, perhaps they need to restrict the revs or the power a bit, but one way or another the engine should last at least 80-100k without the major cost of a rebuild! I dont think there is any other make where it would be tolerated.
Its all wrong on this thread that there are lists of those few that havent had a blow up, if you compared this to Boxster S owners then you would probably be hard pressed to find more than a handful of people that had any sort of mechanical problem.
sorry to say it but on a 40-55k car it is totally unacceptable in this modern age.
Bennno
See you have gone back to the old rubbish Ben
What I meant was they supplied the old factory hack which had done thousands of miles, loads of testing and many road tests in the hands of various magazines. Whilst I'm not defending the speed six engines record there doesn't seem to be that problem with latest derivatives. I'm sure more Porsches go wrong than TVR's even your old 996 had shagged it's gearbox and clutch after 40K so don't tell me they are all reliable.
I seem to remember you crowing about how cheap your Ferrari 456 was going to be to run until you had a reality check and flogged it at a loss because it kept going wrong and was going to cost you a fortune. And one of those is well over £100K new so where is the value in that???
>> Edited by flasher on Friday 30th August 12:03
quote:
So, for S6 engines only, we need to know:
- age of car.
- how many times the engine has had significant rebuild work (return to factory).
- date of last rebuild.
Long text mode on....
What about driver input? How many times was the engine revved when cold or left with low oil levels or coolent? How many times was the engine tweeked with sports exhausts and other bits and pieces?
As for a survey... I would strongly recommend against it as it would not give any true indication at all and would in fact "confirm" that there is a major problem irrespective of what the actual status is. Ted knows my views on this type of stuff and the potential risks involved. It reality it is "name and shame" in another format.
A good example of this was an overheating survey in Sprint a few years ago where the results where published and basically stated that all TVRs overheated and why didn't the factory sort it out? Quite rightly TVR went ballistic as it turned out that all the problems reported were caused by some kind of fault. The number of responses were only a couple of % of the numbers shipped and in many cases (about 50%) I think, were down to owners not looking after their cars and checking levels, servicing being done incorrectly and the fitting of Range Rover parts with the wrong temperature specs. In other words, a lot of things that are out of TVRs control. The fact that the vast majority of TVRs did not have a problem was not reported on.
As for engine rebuilds, when my Cerbera engine died, it was occompanied with two others upto Blackpool. When TVR looked at the engines, mine had had a conrod bolt failure and was replaced FOC. The second one had been driven for 20 miles with no coolent and the engine had siezed. The owner said that the temperature guage went into the red, steam came out of the engine bay but it cured itself a few miles later (when there was no coolent left). The third engine hadn't been serviced for some time and hadn't been serviced for about 15K miles. Both owners complained bitterly when presented with the bills and immediately complained about how unreliable the TVR engines are etc but failed to explain for obvious reasons why the engine had had problems. Now if I said that I knew of three Cerberas that all blew their engines at the same time, you would draw the conclusion that TVR had screwed up again and that the engines were really unreliable and should be avoided. Obviously TVR do not have the design sorted out and it is their problem. The reality is two engines died because of owner inflicted problems and the third through a component failure. BTW component failures are not just the province of TVR.
Now the problem is how do you admit that the engine failure was aided and abetted through neglect when you can easily blame TVR and everyone will believe you. I know of a lot of engine horror stories where the owner says one thing and the reality is another opposite story.
I am not saying that every engine problem is owner inflicted but equally it is difficult to lay the blame for everything at TVR's feet. It is not black and white by any means at all.
Steve
I think that that is the Ostrich approach to this issue Steve. I know well you are a man who knows alla bout these cars, but at the end of the day, their engines go often, porsche engines do not, nor did the Rover based ones in anything like the numbers we see with the AJP units. Sure some must be due to driver failures, But this is something I'd guess TVR will use as a arguement regardless of the reality of the situation. I'd say it would be worth asking about the number of non wear and tear failures found in a variety of makes of car - Ted also does the porkers stuff, and it would make a useful real world comparison (not perhaps one Bristol road will like) I'd also like to see comaprison of customer service levels at dealers and from the manufacturer. Then I'd like to see the results being used to put the problems and the topic to bed.
Short text mode...
That all makes sense Steve, but I don't suppose TVR owners are unique in not always carrying out the requisite checks, so it's fair to presume that owners of other marques do the same sorts of stupid things from time to time and yet you don't hear of the same problems resulting.
>> Edited by cockers on Friday 30th August 13:29
That all makes sense Steve, but I don't suppose TVR owners are unique in not always carrying out the requisite checks, so it's fair to presume that owners of other marques do the same sorts of stupid things from time to time and yet you don't hear of the same problems resulting.
>> Edited by cockers on Friday 30th August 13:29
quote:
Quite rightly TVR went ballistic
May be that could force them into some sort of communication.
quote:
Obviously TVR do not have the design sorted out and it is their problem.
.. and may be their customers'?
Steve,
As always, you do make a very valid point. However, the fact is that I would love to get a Tuscan or a Cerbera, but I simply don't trust these cars. How many potential buyers are in this situation? I really think that with some proper communication people's perception could change favourably. But it has to come from the factory - who would trust a car salesman?
Ultimately, all the comments we read on this thread are TVR entusiasts voicing their - legitimate - concerns.
The World is a - marginaly - better place to live with TVR, none of us want to see it disappear.
Now I'll get my coat and will continue to enjoy my Chimaera while I can.
Yours,
Roms
I agree with Cockers, why is it that TVR owners are incapable of basic maintenance when owners of other marques seem to manage.
And in one of your examples surely loss of coolant is a mechanical failure? OK the guy should have stopped, but the point surely is the car shouldn't have dumped its coolant in the first place?
And in one of your examples surely loss of coolant is a mechanical failure? OK the guy should have stopped, but the point surely is the car shouldn't have dumped its coolant in the first place?
quote:
Would trade the Griff in for a Tamora or Tuscan, but don't know anybody who has not had problems with the Speed 6 engine.
Well you've found another owner now who has had no problems. 8500 miles and one track day, hammering well between 5000 and 7000rpm all day. And don't forget about all the other Tuscans (there were a lot at Bedford last week) that DIDN'T have a problem.
It's these kind of meaningless comments about unreliability that really wind me up.
As for residuals - I don't care a monkeys as I'm very happy with my car - there's nothing else I would want to replace it with - and anyway the "huge depreciation" is a myth as it matches most other cars bought from new. If you don't want depcreation, DONT BUY A BRAND NEW CAR!
Rant over.
quote:
Seem to remember Tiff blowing up a 911 engine on Topgear a couple of years back (Red 911 can't remember the exact model). May have just have dreamt it though.
It was a belt of some kind - fan belt probably. Yes he did do it and then went on to explain that it was probably the cheapest component on the car in the first place - and they didnt have a spare one so testing stopped there..... I think it may have been a GT3...
In recent tests, Aston have had gearbox problems (not changing etc), A Jag overheated and the catalogue of problems with the new BMW 7 series are well publicised. Does it affect peoples perception - YES. Does it stop people buying them - YES. Do the manufacturers do enough? Probably not.... its not just TVR people - lets not forget this small and VERY significant point here....
Cheers,
Paul
>> Edited by pbrettle on Friday 30th August 14:19
quote:
I agree with Cockers, why is it that TVR owners are incapable of basic maintenance when owners of other marques seem to manage.
And in one of your examples surely loss of coolant is a mechanical failure? OK the guy should have stopped, but the point surely is the car shouldn't have dumped its coolant in the first place?
It was a woman and the reason why she didn't stop was that her Merc has a low water light and nothing had come on on the Cerbera to warn her...
I'm sorry but owners have to take some responsibility for looking after their cars. I think many TVR owners fall into the it's a kit car syndrome using standard bits and either tweeek with it and get it wrong or thing it can be ignored. The number of Rover based cars that have been screwed up by this is larger than you think.
As for losing the coolent in the first place... yes it could have been a problem but don't tell me that other cars don't have problems and that other cars if driven with no coolent for 20 miles would be perfect. It could equally have been a stone through the rad. Poo happens as the say in Surrey....
The issue is all about perspective and balance. I'm not burying my head in the sand: quite the reverse as I tend to treat anything I hear with a large pinch of salt until I can get a balanced viewpoint and then I make up my mind.
As for buying a Cerbera or Tuscan. Let's look at the facts. The cars are the performance bargain at the prices they are at. Add a few grand to the cost and they are still a steal. So they way to look at it is to say I'll factor the extra money into the budget in some way by getting a warrenty and/or saving money. If I get a big repair bill then fine, it is not nice but I can cope. If it doesn't I have got an even better bargain than before.
The biggest often ignored factor with these cars is running costs because when things need replacing they are expensive. Not as bad as when I had my car (£1000 for brake discs!) but still 2-3 times that of a Griff/Chimaera. Still cheaper than Porsch, Ferrari-Fiat
and so on but expensive. What many forget is that they see the low price tag, forget about running costs and then struggle to keep the car maintained and then the car goes down a slippery slope indeed and that is when the car turns into a millstone. If you have a Chimaera or Griffith and want a Cerbera then do it as they are awesome cars indeed but you cannot do this on the cheap. The car is as close to a street legal race car as you can get and anyone who races knows how much it costs to keep a similar performance car in fine fettle.
I would also argue the same is true for many of the Dancing Donkeys and Porsches that have dropped in price. Cheap to buy but not maintain.
Steve
quote:Mate of mine had a pretty well brand new BMW 525 (or whatever) which he drove up to town every day. One evening he said his BMW had gone in for a new engine because he had trashed the old one. Seems a little red light the shaps of an engine had come on around Heston Services but he still drove on for his meeting near Harvey Nic's! He reckoned he didin't realise he was not meant not to drive it without water!
It was a woman and the reason why she didn't stop was that her Merc has a low water light and nothing had come on on the Cerbera to warn her...
quote:
Yet despite all that i'll still have a nice 4.2 Cerb with Spyders and Speed 12 light conversion !! in fact ANY post Griff TVR would be good !!
This is what I meant when I said TVRs are bought with the heart, not the head
Interesting that sales are reputedly lower than a few years ago.... Are there any figures available to support this view?
yep, porsche gearbox did go at 49k and I was advised to do the clutch at the same time...but pcgb said very unusual, apologised and said they would no both at no charge even though car was out of main dealer warranty.
456 was fun, seemed to have lots of niggles thats why i sold it, but loosing £3k for 6,000 miles is not bad going when you think the first guy spent £120K for 12.
Flasher if you Tamora gets to 50k without any major engine, gearbox or diff work then hats off, respect - but be honest now how many times have you got panic'd when it starts making a funny noise etc?? (i've been with you at least twice..)
Bennno
>> Edited by bennno on Friday 30th August 14:52
456 was fun, seemed to have lots of niggles thats why i sold it, but loosing £3k for 6,000 miles is not bad going when you think the first guy spent £120K for 12.
Flasher if you Tamora gets to 50k without any major engine, gearbox or diff work then hats off, respect - but be honest now how many times have you got panic'd when it starts making a funny noise etc?? (i've been with you at least twice..)
Bennno
>> Edited by bennno on Friday 30th August 14:52
On the whole I reckon I agree with Steve.
PH'ers aside for a moment (as we are all perfect), a lot of TVR new car buyers have come out of unusually reliable sports cars like Porsches or using the TVR as a second car whilst driving an uber reliable saloon during the week.
A lot of these people, especially if they are day dreaming of light speed rather than listening to the dealers advice on handover, are just going to drive the car like their BMW, Porsche or whatever, getting in, rolling down the road and thrashing it. I honestly believe that a lot of TVR's percieved problems are down to this.
Now, I am not saying for one moment that there havent been factory issues such as the finger follower problem but any questionairre is going to be sullied by unacceptable TVR ownership behaviour.
Just my twopenneth.
Matt.
PH'ers aside for a moment (as we are all perfect), a lot of TVR new car buyers have come out of unusually reliable sports cars like Porsches or using the TVR as a second car whilst driving an uber reliable saloon during the week.
A lot of these people, especially if they are day dreaming of light speed rather than listening to the dealers advice on handover, are just going to drive the car like their BMW, Porsche or whatever, getting in, rolling down the road and thrashing it. I honestly believe that a lot of TVR's percieved problems are down to this.
Now, I am not saying for one moment that there havent been factory issues such as the finger follower problem but any questionairre is going to be sullied by unacceptable TVR ownership behaviour.
Just my twopenneth.
Matt.
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