T.V.Rs ENGINE DILEMMA
Discussion
quote:If im talking a (PILE OF RUBBISH) then take your head out of the clouds for a minute and read some of the threads on here by disgruntled cerb and tuscan owners and then judge my comments
What an absolute pile of rubbish. Even if there was a "design flaw" in the speed 6 / AJP engines, it would be much cheaper to fix it rather than swap the engine for another.
Anyway, if your concerned TVR provide you with the choice of a Rover V8, a AJP V8 or a Speed 6.
You pays your money....and people do.....
quote:You seem to forget one major difference between TVR and almost every other car manufacturer there is. Peter Wheeler OWNS TVR. It is his plaything. He can do what the hell he likes. So long as the company breaks even (or even makes only a small loss - PW's personal fortune would make up the difference) then he is happy. He is not in it for the money. TVR do not have shareholders and accountants that have to be satisfied. I don't think Peter gives a flying
Just being good at where they are now is not gona take a company like t.v.r forward.
about becoming as successful as Porsche or even Ferrari. So to say that the current regime isn't going to take the company forward is somewhat of a moot point really.Couple of points ... TVR is a private company, so it doesn't have to try and maximise its potential growth. If PW wants to play with building his own engines, then that's his call; it's his money. As long as he doesn't go bust he can head in any direction he likes.
It might well have made sense to use a Jag (or BMW, etc) engine ... but I can't see any face saving, image saving way of turning the clock back.
It might well have made sense to use a Jag (or BMW, etc) engine ... but I can't see any face saving, image saving way of turning the clock back.
1. I'm intrigued as to the nature of this 'design flaw' that allegedly (according to 'people in the know') afflicts two totally different engines. Is there a particular brand of chocolate used for the camshafts? Are ex-Russian taxi pistons not up to 800 bhp? I think we should be told.
2. The Speed 12 engines were fabricated from steel sheet amongst other things; primarily this would be due to the fact that it was a completely new design on a miniscule scale (from a production standpoint). Engines are normally cast from, say, aluminium, in a multi-part steel die that is held together by a hydraulic jig. The molten metal is then injected and fills the cavities in the die; once cool the hydraulics pull the die apart and the casting is removed. Now how do you decide what shape the die needs to be? Either you pay a team of engineers shitloads of cash to do the sums and design the thing on a CAD package, then have CNC machines chop the die sections from solid steel blocks, cast a few samples from which to produce complete engines and see what happens; or you build an engine in the way TVR did and... see what happens. If it doesn't work, it's a minimal investment compared to having an expensive die going for scrap because you got one daft thing wrong.
We had a client a few years back (BIG British company) who wanted us to develop a method for inspecting rough castings prior to machining because, due to a die error, the alloy wasn't always forming a good casting. They worked out that, for the projected life of the casting run, it would be cheaper to buy two ultrasonic units and have a team of inspectors working 24 hours a day checking each casting individually and chucking the crap ones back into the furnace, than it would be to produce a new die or even modify the existing one! (We are talking hundreds of thousands sterling here, so a few £20K p.a. salaries and 20 grand of kit was a p155 in the ocean in comparison).
Once TVR did the development work on the fabricated engines, it would (or rather could!) then be used as the basis for a die if quantity production was required. Should the thing prove reliable enough, they could sell the engines to other car makers... oh, where have we heard that before?
;-)
Ian
2. The Speed 12 engines were fabricated from steel sheet amongst other things; primarily this would be due to the fact that it was a completely new design on a miniscule scale (from a production standpoint). Engines are normally cast from, say, aluminium, in a multi-part steel die that is held together by a hydraulic jig. The molten metal is then injected and fills the cavities in the die; once cool the hydraulics pull the die apart and the casting is removed. Now how do you decide what shape the die needs to be? Either you pay a team of engineers shitloads of cash to do the sums and design the thing on a CAD package, then have CNC machines chop the die sections from solid steel blocks, cast a few samples from which to produce complete engines and see what happens; or you build an engine in the way TVR did and... see what happens. If it doesn't work, it's a minimal investment compared to having an expensive die going for scrap because you got one daft thing wrong.
We had a client a few years back (BIG British company) who wanted us to develop a method for inspecting rough castings prior to machining because, due to a die error, the alloy wasn't always forming a good casting. They worked out that, for the projected life of the casting run, it would be cheaper to buy two ultrasonic units and have a team of inspectors working 24 hours a day checking each casting individually and chucking the crap ones back into the furnace, than it would be to produce a new die or even modify the existing one! (We are talking hundreds of thousands sterling here, so a few £20K p.a. salaries and 20 grand of kit was a p155 in the ocean in comparison).
Once TVR did the development work on the fabricated engines, it would (or rather could!) then be used as the basis for a die if quantity production was required. Should the thing prove reliable enough, they could sell the engines to other car makers... oh, where have we heard that before?
;-)
Ian
quote:O.k thats a fair point, if moneys not a problem then why are there persistant rumours about tvr re-entering the american market again.If PW doesnt give a flying f**k about being successful then he gives a flying f**k about keeping the company alive,the u.k. sports car market has taken a bit of a slump in sales over the last two years,so its natural you look at other markets to generate new sales.And the biggest market being the U.S.if you honestly believe that old petes company is just a play thing then your very misguided,its a business and as in any business you need to answer to some one i.e the bank and (ACCOUNTANTS),you must be under the impression that PW funds the design development and production of all the range of cars from his own pocket just so we can have a sample of his play things errrmmm..
quote:You seem to forget one major difference between TVR and almost every other car manufacturer there is. Peter Wheeler OWNS TVR. It is his plaything. He can do what the hell he likes. So long as the company breaks even (or even makes only a small loss - PW's personal fortune would make up the difference) then he is happy. He is not in it for the money. TVR do not have shareholders and accountants that have to be satisfied. I don't think Peter gives a flying
Just being good at where they are now is not gona take a company like t.v.r forward.
9
quote:DEFINITELY NOT A B.M.W ENGINE
Couple of points ... TVR is a private company, so it doesn't have to try and maximise its potential growth. If PW wants to play with building his own engines, then that's his call; it's his money. As long as he doesn't go bust he can head in any direction he likes.
It might well have made sense to use a Jag (or BMW, etc) engine ... but I can't see any face saving, image saving way of turning the clock back.
Coooeee boys! This heated talk is getting me all excited. I love TVR and while the way they do things isn't always ideal and some basic saftey issues(seatbelts) are over looked, they do a good job giving pleasure to many a mortal man. Which reminds me...................
>> Edited by costa del bazza on Thursday 19th September 06:59
>> Edited by costa del bazza on Thursday 19th September 06:59
"Speed 6 and AJP'S are good"
"The problem is the dealers not checking the tappits at a 1000mile and using mobil 1 oil + the first owner not running it in. If this is done you should have no probs."
Well my Tamora is being rebuilt as we speak, my dealer is excellent and it was run in properly. I used to think the same but now think this is just TVR trying to push the blame onto customers. IMHO the number of problems with the Speed 6 is not acceptable and TVR really do need to put some focus on improving the situation. The sad thing is that if they don't sort this out I personally can't see them lasting much longer as confidence in their product will slowly rot away. In fact I have already been hearing rumors of the first loss in 10 years etc.
Frostie
"The problem is the dealers not checking the tappits at a 1000mile and using mobil 1 oil + the first owner not running it in. If this is done you should have no probs."
Well my Tamora is being rebuilt as we speak, my dealer is excellent and it was run in properly. I used to think the same but now think this is just TVR trying to push the blame onto customers. IMHO the number of problems with the Speed 6 is not acceptable and TVR really do need to put some focus on improving the situation. The sad thing is that if they don't sort this out I personally can't see them lasting much longer as confidence in their product will slowly rot away. In fact I have already been hearing rumors of the first loss in 10 years etc.
Frostie
quote:
Yeah maybe the case but how many t.v.r,s have ford parts on them?????????????
Quite a few have done... and some still do...
quote:
wouldnt a better option be to ditch these engines and turn to the V8 jag engines, a unit with proven reliabillty and more than enough bhp and torq to match and still with a lot of development life left in it. land rover are taking this option with the third generation disco and new range rover being adapted to take the jag engine within the next year or so
Yes, but Ford own Landie and Jag, hence it's easy to do and saves costs (sharing components)... TVR would have to stump up cash.
Besides, they just wouldn't SOUND the same...
>> Edited by Podie on Thursday 19th September 08:01
Just to make a point that, I'm sure I've made at least once before here in the various "TVR should ditch their own make engines" discussions.
My Dad bought one of the first V8 S Type Jags. He's owned numerous XJSs before this car, and he now says he's unlikely buy another new Jag.
The engine, which in terms of noise and driving experience is really dull (he likens the sound in the cockpit to a sewing machine), has had numerous faults. The ingnition has a coil for each plug, and a number of these seem incapable of withstanding damp (i.e. British) weather and have had to be replaced (pasrts & labour well over £150 squid each), and the thing regularly fails to start first time.
If you look at Jag's previously good JD Power ratings, they were mainly on the back of high customer satisfaction for the XJ6 range - with the 6 cyl engine - and certainly not the latter cars/engines.
>> Edited by DIGGA on Thursday 19th September 08:34
My Dad bought one of the first V8 S Type Jags. He's owned numerous XJSs before this car, and he now says he's unlikely buy another new Jag.
The engine, which in terms of noise and driving experience is really dull (he likens the sound in the cockpit to a sewing machine), has had numerous faults. The ingnition has a coil for each plug, and a number of these seem incapable of withstanding damp (i.e. British) weather and have had to be replaced (pasrts & labour well over £150 squid each), and the thing regularly fails to start first time.
If you look at Jag's previously good JD Power ratings, they were mainly on the back of high customer satisfaction for the XJ6 range - with the 6 cyl engine - and certainly not the latter cars/engines.
>> Edited by DIGGA on Thursday 19th September 08:34
quote:
...its a business and as in any business you need to answer to some one i.e the bank and (ACCOUNTANTS)...
Absolutely not. You only answer to banks if you have signed the company to them for loans. You NEVER answer to accountants, they are there to provide a SERVICE to any business, not to run it (except in the UK people seem to forget that).
TVR can do whatever they want. If people don't like it, they won't buy them, and the company may fold. Thats the risk. However, by daring to be different, and not just another sports car out of the boring mould, TVR have a following, who are aware of the issues - and guess what, they still buy!
Switching to another engine might be seen to change reliability, but it also changes the perception of the product - some might like it more, others less.
IMHO
Every car manufacturer produces dogs... or "friday cars"...
I know of people that have had duff beemers, merc, toyotas, lexi (lexuses)... jags, ford, hondas, the lot...
As with most things, people are more than happy to complain about poor service, but never seem to step forward to say "thanks", "well done" or praise someone.
When was the last time you wrote a letter to say thanks or well done..?
I know of people that have had duff beemers, merc, toyotas, lexi (lexuses)... jags, ford, hondas, the lot...
As with most things, people are more than happy to complain about poor service, but never seem to step forward to say "thanks", "well done" or praise someone.
When was the last time you wrote a letter to say thanks or well done..?
quote:
wouldnt a better option be to ditch these engines and turn to the V8 jag engines, a unit with proven reliabillty and more than enough bhp and torq to match and still with a lot of development life left in it.
This is not a dig at Jaguar (although they do not have a great reliability record) but in the late 70's/early 80's jag had a terrible reliability record (although you can't single the engine out for criticism).
Then sometime in the mid 80's a man called Sir John Egan began to turn things around, but he didn't do it by buying someone else's engines. I don't think it would have done Jag's image any good to have a GM engine in it, for example.
But that is not the point, the point is that it is a total quality issue and just dumping someone else's engine in a TVR will not solve all their problems. After all TVR had a bad reputation long before they started building their own engines.
Just a thought.
Quite right andyvdg, it's tosh alright. There's no inherent design flaws in either unit. I'm not sure who your souces are BLUETHUNDER but frankly they're talking $hite. There are quality problems for sure - some of the components aren't up to scratch /are a bit marginal but that's a completely different issue to a design flaw. These quality issues stem from other issues which I'm not going to go into here at this time but there are people on PH that know more than they let on and they'll know exactly what I mean and how infuriating it is (and I don't even own a TVR). There's good reason why the motors haven't been as good as they should (particularly the Speed Six) but it's sod all to do with the design. I'll give you a clue - it's why loads of other niggly stuff breaks on TVRs.
Aah, for the want of an anonymous pseudonym...
Aah, for the want of an anonymous pseudonym...
quote:
quote:If im talking a (PILE OF RUBBISH) then take your head out of the clouds for a minute and read some of the threads on here by disgruntled cerb and tuscan owners and then judge my comments
What an absolute pile of rubbish. Even if there was a "design flaw" in the speed 6 / AJP engines, it would be much cheaper to fix it rather than swap the engine for another.
Anyway, if your concerned TVR provide you with the choice of a Rover V8, a AJP V8 or a Speed 6.
You pays your money....and people do.....
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