New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 3)
Discussion
glow worm said:
There's a big difference between trying to hook with a partner and SELLING THE COMPANY ... I don't think Edgar has EVER offered to sell the name ... mores the pity 
Sorry GW but I disagree there. He admits way back then that he and his mates could not continue without a 'global partner'. He claims he had serious offers - for the company or for a partnership? he does not say - then claims he did not want the brand name to disappear. Why would it disappear in a partnership? No, it would only disappear if he sold it to a multinational. When the Welsh Govt bought into TVR 8 years ago it was valued at around £15m. So what has changed that he thinks he can continue internationally without a 'global partner'?
Unfortunately Les thinks the TVR name is worth millions, so no one bought it.
For TVR to survive l believe it needs to go back to its roots , namely a small factory with a small band of people producing cars built on a chassis with a fibre glass body and Ford V8.
That car would sell, granted in small numbers that will neatly side step EU regulation's.
The biggest stumbling block is Les's refusal to sell the name at a sensible price the longer he takes to accept that the less the value of the TVR name.
For TVR to survive l believe it needs to go back to its roots , namely a small factory with a small band of people producing cars built on a chassis with a fibre glass body and Ford V8.
That car would sell, granted in small numbers that will neatly side step EU regulation's.
The biggest stumbling block is Les's refusal to sell the name at a sensible price the longer he takes to accept that the less the value of the TVR name.
Also, after the big news did not happen, Edgar bought his country club for several million. True he had put money into the TVR brand using his very successful dairy farm as collateral. But the Welsh Govt had clearly stated TVR would not occupy the factory until they proved they had over £5m.
If you believe his statements above about wanting to keep the name etc, you might be forgiven for thinking why then spend your cash on something else? Unless of course you already know the real reason....
If you believe his statements above about wanting to keep the name etc, you might be forgiven for thinking why then spend your cash on something else? Unless of course you already know the real reason....
Zeb74 said:
Maybe he, and one of his acolyte, were those who bid and bought the speed 12, this was a pure communication operation in order to show that TVR is still in the game 
I know one of the bidders ( and it wasn't Edgar) and I know one was in Australia , It took TWO bidders to take it to £540,000 but I don't know who won the auction .Viper201 said:
- - Mr. Les Edgar; "As we’ve always said, we aren’t going to back off, or fail to deliver."
YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED TO DELIVER. THE DREAM IS FINISHED, AS BECAME FAIRLY EVIDENT AT AN EARLY STAGE.
- - My interpretation of this is that Edgar tried to enlist a 'global partner' which to me means one of the big car manufacturers. At the
- - time names like Ford and Lotus were mentioned on here. It was obviously going to be a major brand as he claims he didn't want
- - TVR to be 'dissolved into another name'.
- - He claims the 'deals and the counterparties weren't right'.
- - In the fanciful world which Edgar inhabits, this to me translates as: look, we can't manufacture a new car as we don't have any
- - money. We have gone round with the begging bowl hoping one of the top car makers will bail us out. But they have decided to
- - offer us well below our valuation so the deal is off. Now we are stuck with TVR so we'll just have to get on with it and try to raise
- - money. But to cover up the failed negotiations and not disappoint the deposit holders and keep them on the hook, I'll tell them how
- - personal it is and how easily confused I am with cars. As I've put some of my own money into this gamble I want to get it all back
- - even if it means huge delays.
THERE WERE NO TALKS WITH BIG CAR MANUFACTURERS, ABOUT SELLING THE TRADE MARK, 'TVR'.
WHY WOULD THERE BE ?
THERE WOULD BE NO INTEREST AT ALL.
THINK OF RILEY. THEIR NAME APPEARED ON NEW CARS FOR 66 YEARS, FROM 1913 TO 1969.
NOW THAT NAME IS ONLY KNOWN TO A FEW AND IS OF NO INTEREST, OR VALUE TO ANYONE.
THE RILEY TRADEMARK HAS BEEN OWNED FOR MANY YEARS BY BMW, BUT SO FAR, THEY HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY
UNINTERESTED.
Viper201 said:
glow worm said:
There's a big difference between trying to hook with a partner and SELLING THE COMPANY ... I don't think Edgar has EVER offered to sell the name ... mores the pity
Sorry GW but I disagree there. He admits way back then that he and his mates could not continue without a 'global partner'. He claims he had serious offers - for the company or for a partnership? he does not say - then claims he did not want the brand name to disappear. Why would it disappear in a partnership? No, it would only disappear if he sold it to a multinational. When the Welsh Govt bought into TVR 8 years ago it was valued at around £15m. So what has changed that he thinks he can continue internationally without a 'global partner'?
i) He has no automotive design expertise
ii) He has no automotive technical compentance
iii) He has no engine, no safety products , in fact no products of any sort
iv) He has no marketing
v) He has no dealership
In reality he has bugger all , except a car designed and made for him
glow worm said:
The reason why he wanted to hook up with a global partner are many :-
i) He has no automotive design expertise
ii) He has no automotive technical compentance
iii) He has no engine, no safety products , in fact no products of any sort
iv) He has no marketing
v) He has no dealership
In reality he has bugger all , except a car designed and made for him
Correct!i) He has no automotive design expertise
ii) He has no automotive technical compentance
iii) He has no engine, no safety products , in fact no products of any sort
iv) He has no marketing
v) He has no dealership
In reality he has bugger all , except a car designed and made for him
Jon39 said:
Viper201 said:
- - Mr. Les Edgar; "As we’ve always said, we aren’t going to back off, or fail to deliver."
YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED TO DELIVER. THE DREAM IS FINISHED, AS BECAME FAIRLY EVIDENT AT AN EARLY STAGE.
- - My interpretation of this is that Edgar tried to enlist a 'global partner' which to me means one of the big car manufacturers. At the
- - time names like Ford and Lotus were mentioned on here. It was obviously going to be a major brand as he claims he didn't want
- - TVR to be 'dissolved into another name'.
- - He claims the 'deals and the counterparties weren't right'.
- - In the fanciful world which Edgar inhabits, this to me translates as: look, we can't manufacture a new car as we don't have any
- - money. We have gone round with the begging bowl hoping one of the top car makers will bail us out. But they have decided to
- - offer us well below our valuation so the deal is off. Now we are stuck with TVR so we'll just have to get on with it and try to raise
- - money. But to cover up the failed negotiations and not disappoint the deposit holders and keep them on the hook, I'll tell them how
- - personal it is and how easily confused I am with cars. As I've put some of my own money into this gamble I want to get it all back
- - even if it means huge delays.
THERE WERE NO TALKS WITH BIG CAR MANUFACTURERS, ABOUT SELLING THE TRADE MARK, 'TVR'.
WHY WOULD THERE BE ?
THERE WOULD BE NO INTEREST AT ALL.
THINK OF RILEY. THEIR NAME APPEARED ON NEW CARS FOR 66 YEARS, FROM 1913 TO 1969.
NOW THAT NAME IS ONLY KNOWN TO A FEW AND IS OF NO INTEREST, OR VALUE TO ANYONE.
THE RILEY TRADEMARK HAS BEEN OWNED FOR MANY YEARS BY BMW, BUT SO FAR, THEY HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY
UNINTERESTED.
Meanwhile the refurbished factory remains empty after 11 months. Ho hum.
Viper - It's all just likely to be excuses and hot air.
You're the accounts expert. You have quoted from them, and discussed them many times. The company isn't worth what it owes, so realistically, how far were any negotiations going to go? About as far as looking at the accounts, before any interested party left the building!
Who is going to buy up all the shares for even £1 and then be responsible for all the debt, and only have the name of a long defunct car company, (with a questionable history, that hasn't sold in any volumes for decades) and an old, unfinished prototype, produced by a 3rd party contractor, and based on an American Ford Mustang that is now out of production?
Paying £1 to buy debt, no income, but a need for a massive capital and labour time investment to develop, finish and launch a competitive product, to have any hope of a return in a market sector that is tiny and shrinking fast?
It was never going to happen.
You're the accounts expert. You have quoted from them, and discussed them many times. The company isn't worth what it owes, so realistically, how far were any negotiations going to go? About as far as looking at the accounts, before any interested party left the building!
Who is going to buy up all the shares for even £1 and then be responsible for all the debt, and only have the name of a long defunct car company, (with a questionable history, that hasn't sold in any volumes for decades) and an old, unfinished prototype, produced by a 3rd party contractor, and based on an American Ford Mustang that is now out of production?
Paying £1 to buy debt, no income, but a need for a massive capital and labour time investment to develop, finish and launch a competitive product, to have any hope of a return in a market sector that is tiny and shrinking fast?
It was never going to happen.
Buy the speed 12 and re make 24 of them and create its own race series.
Use Beemer Merc or any 6.0 700 hp+ engine and knock them up in that huge space in Wales for a knock down price, I’m sure there’s a few welders from Port Talbot looking for work.
Make the chassis a bit stronger, go racing, it’s easy and cheap to build.
A Ginetta that actually looks good in essence.
I’m sure lots of race promoters would enjoy the TVR’s racing on their bill and it would attract lots of people.
The speed 12 is the ultimate Tvr racing shape, more like a Pikes Peak car but guys in there 20’s still remember that car or seeing a Cerb drive past and thinking it might even be a speed12 as they are mostly to young to know any Tvr history.
A chief mechanic I worked with who’s around 28 and looks 18 to me said that speed 12 was his bedroom wall picture as a kid.
Every car nut I’ve ever met has this fascination and yet a bit of fear about Tvr.
It’s magic I tell you.
Just a very small operation offering parts and chassis repair back up to the owners and race teams, you’ll need hundreds of spare body panels to make
Sensible charges for said parts and keep the driver/ teams happy.
Tvr racing would attract top drivers the way any fast exciting high powered series does.
Sadly people barely go watch racing live but get on the touring car bill and your bang in the public domain. Get a few rounds in EU and you can call it the euro challenge.
Surely there’s enough teams running things like TCR cars, Audi/ Seat and those cars are 100k + and 100k to race for a season. 7 sets of drys per race weekend etc etc….
You could make some money servicing that little lot easy!
Ok maybe not but that’s what you need.
A mad racer with deep never ending pockets to make good reliable race cars and get people wanting them again.
With social media sharing virtually all racing around the world you’d soon get millions watching.
Then make a limited run 230 mph road car that has door air bags and the like. Legal as it were
Soften it down and sell it like a Lambo or other luxury sport’s car maker, to rich folk.
Question is how fast could you make it go with modern tech?
It’s a far better idea than anything Tvr have come up with.
Shall we move onto what Tvr will become or who will have energy and support both the club, dealers and owners of actual Tvr cars when this saga eventually ends.
Tvr is never going to be a money spinner and just keeping it a linked up cohesive cottage industry for existing owners/ fans should be the priority.
Tvr needs to feel like a family again.
Words expressed in Sprint by the leader of the pack have been shown to be very hollow indeed, this is very bad for the integrity of the club let alone the Tvr name.
It’s time someone sensible with real perspective and love for Tvr came forward and helped keep the name alive by keeping the actual cars that do exist working.
Thankfully Tvr also have a number of independent committed service centres etc so for the time being we can still own them but times running out without a lateral thinker.
Basically you have to build a race car for Euro GT and it be fast or your wasting your time.
It’s impossible unless Merc build it and just shape it like a Tvr then the GT 500 could become the new Chim 500 and all decent sportscars will look like that for ever more.
All racers I know of think the Cerbera speed 12 is the best looking british GT design ever.
It’s so aggresive.
So this constantly going over unimportant details about the companies woes is seriously bad form?
What will be will be and the rest is left for owners of the brand to pick up the pieces and keep the name alive that way.
I notice younger chaps in their 20-30s are buying and getting into them.
They will always appeal to a certain type of risk taker absolute power car lover and that will never change.
It’s time to concentrate on saving the few Tvr that do exist so the younger generation can enjoy them for maybe another 20 years before it’s truly all over.
We are dealing with global warming so unless they create a clean sports engine it’s indeed a diminishing market.
Which I think they will with the help of F1 etc.
Use Beemer Merc or any 6.0 700 hp+ engine and knock them up in that huge space in Wales for a knock down price, I’m sure there’s a few welders from Port Talbot looking for work.
Make the chassis a bit stronger, go racing, it’s easy and cheap to build.
A Ginetta that actually looks good in essence.
I’m sure lots of race promoters would enjoy the TVR’s racing on their bill and it would attract lots of people.
The speed 12 is the ultimate Tvr racing shape, more like a Pikes Peak car but guys in there 20’s still remember that car or seeing a Cerb drive past and thinking it might even be a speed12 as they are mostly to young to know any Tvr history.
A chief mechanic I worked with who’s around 28 and looks 18 to me said that speed 12 was his bedroom wall picture as a kid.
Every car nut I’ve ever met has this fascination and yet a bit of fear about Tvr.
It’s magic I tell you.
Just a very small operation offering parts and chassis repair back up to the owners and race teams, you’ll need hundreds of spare body panels to make
Sensible charges for said parts and keep the driver/ teams happy.
Tvr racing would attract top drivers the way any fast exciting high powered series does.
Sadly people barely go watch racing live but get on the touring car bill and your bang in the public domain. Get a few rounds in EU and you can call it the euro challenge.
Surely there’s enough teams running things like TCR cars, Audi/ Seat and those cars are 100k + and 100k to race for a season. 7 sets of drys per race weekend etc etc….
You could make some money servicing that little lot easy!
Ok maybe not but that’s what you need.
A mad racer with deep never ending pockets to make good reliable race cars and get people wanting them again.
With social media sharing virtually all racing around the world you’d soon get millions watching.
Then make a limited run 230 mph road car that has door air bags and the like. Legal as it were
Soften it down and sell it like a Lambo or other luxury sport’s car maker, to rich folk.
Question is how fast could you make it go with modern tech?
It’s a far better idea than anything Tvr have come up with.
Shall we move onto what Tvr will become or who will have energy and support both the club, dealers and owners of actual Tvr cars when this saga eventually ends.
Tvr is never going to be a money spinner and just keeping it a linked up cohesive cottage industry for existing owners/ fans should be the priority.
Tvr needs to feel like a family again.
Words expressed in Sprint by the leader of the pack have been shown to be very hollow indeed, this is very bad for the integrity of the club let alone the Tvr name.
It’s time someone sensible with real perspective and love for Tvr came forward and helped keep the name alive by keeping the actual cars that do exist working.
Thankfully Tvr also have a number of independent committed service centres etc so for the time being we can still own them but times running out without a lateral thinker.
Basically you have to build a race car for Euro GT and it be fast or your wasting your time.
It’s impossible unless Merc build it and just shape it like a Tvr then the GT 500 could become the new Chim 500 and all decent sportscars will look like that for ever more.
All racers I know of think the Cerbera speed 12 is the best looking british GT design ever.
It’s so aggresive.
So this constantly going over unimportant details about the companies woes is seriously bad form?
What will be will be and the rest is left for owners of the brand to pick up the pieces and keep the name alive that way.
I notice younger chaps in their 20-30s are buying and getting into them.
They will always appeal to a certain type of risk taker absolute power car lover and that will never change.
It’s time to concentrate on saving the few Tvr that do exist so the younger generation can enjoy them for maybe another 20 years before it’s truly all over.
We are dealing with global warming so unless they create a clean sports engine it’s indeed a diminishing market.
Which I think they will with the help of F1 etc.
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 31st May 17:03
Classic Chim said:
Buy the speed 12 and re make 24 of them and create its own race series.
Helical are already doing that ... Their updated version of the Speed 12 with a Twin Turbo Aston V12 developing over 1000bhp ... just no race series but Lawerence T is the man for that .It was booked for it's road going cert last week , 2nd attempt , don't know if it passed.
Helical also have all the original Speed 12 moulds
At Lytham Hall last week
PS The smart Tuscan vert in the background is mine
By comparison
Edited by glow worm on Thursday 1st June 08:53
Classic Chim said:
Tvr needs to feel like a family again.
Words expressed in Sprint by the leader of the pack have been shown to be very hollow indeed, this is very bad for the integrity of the club let alone the Tvr name.
It won’t if the name continuous to be dragged through mud by the current farce.Words expressed in Sprint by the leader of the pack have been shown to be very hollow indeed, this is very bad for the integrity of the club let alone the Tvr name.
GeneralBanter said:
It won’t if the name continuous to be dragged through mud by the current farce.
But the farce was over a number of years ago as the near silence suggested. A few emails detailing his aspirations has never convinced me or anyone else.
It’s only really this thread that keeps the story going.
Know one on here is likely to buy him out so why waste your time constantly going over the embers of this sad tale.
I’m sure even the boss is sad about it but that won’t change the reality of the world we live in.
In better news did anyone see the video of someones Griff with nearly 500bhp on Doms rolling road the other day. What a sound
Classic Chim said:
GeneralBanter said:
It won’t if the name continuous to be dragged through mud by the current farce.
But the farce was over a number of years ago as the near silence suggested. A few emails detailing his aspirations has never convinced me or anyone else.
It’s only really this thread that keeps the story going.
Know one on here is likely to buy him out so why waste your time constantly going over the embers of this sad tale.
I’m sure even the boss is sad about it but that won’t change the reality of the world we live in.
In better news did anyone see the video of someones Griff with nearly 500bhp on Doms rolling road the other day. What a sound
Unlike all other rolling roads, Dom quotes the BHP at the wheels, ie the only true number you get from a rolling road.
But TVR owners like to brag about big numbers, so others use the mathematically coerrected BHP at the flywheel number, which is 15 to 20% higher than the wheel BHP.
Hence when someone shows us their graph for a well modified Griff 500 naturally aspirated and it shows 360 bhp, that would be somewhere in the region of 305 bhp on Dom's rolling road.
Cutting to the chase, the Facebook post by Dom in the TVR group, of a supercharged grey N reg Griff showing 478 wheel BHP would read about 580 bhp at the flywheel on anyone else's rolling road.
Presumably a lot of development has gone on with that car, as it wouldn't survive that level of power on a standard RV8 engine and TVR chassis. It would need forged engine internals, probably a stonger power train and possibly a change of gearbox too. Then you would need the chassis strengthening as well.
Anyone going "wow, I must get a supercharger" needs to bear in mind that the supercharger part of the equation is just the first 20% of the total cost. I know a TVR owner who supercharged his Chimaera, got over 470 bhp at the flywheel, but not before he had had to rebuild the engine and change the gearbox - his original engine destroyed itself.
Major power increases from an RV8 engine are possible, but while a bit cheaper, are rather similar in cost profile to swapping to an LS3 engine. The LS3 engine itself, when I looked into it about 5 years ago, was less than £5,000. I got a quote from Sportmotive for the all the neccesary bits, and it was £18,000, installation labour was just £3,000 on top.
But TVR owners like to brag about big numbers, so others use the mathematically coerrected BHP at the flywheel number, which is 15 to 20% higher than the wheel BHP.
Hence when someone shows us their graph for a well modified Griff 500 naturally aspirated and it shows 360 bhp, that would be somewhere in the region of 305 bhp on Dom's rolling road.
Cutting to the chase, the Facebook post by Dom in the TVR group, of a supercharged grey N reg Griff showing 478 wheel BHP would read about 580 bhp at the flywheel on anyone else's rolling road.
Presumably a lot of development has gone on with that car, as it wouldn't survive that level of power on a standard RV8 engine and TVR chassis. It would need forged engine internals, probably a stonger power train and possibly a change of gearbox too. Then you would need the chassis strengthening as well.
Anyone going "wow, I must get a supercharger" needs to bear in mind that the supercharger part of the equation is just the first 20% of the total cost. I know a TVR owner who supercharged his Chimaera, got over 470 bhp at the flywheel, but not before he had had to rebuild the engine and change the gearbox - his original engine destroyed itself.
Major power increases from an RV8 engine are possible, but while a bit cheaper, are rather similar in cost profile to swapping to an LS3 engine. The LS3 engine itself, when I looked into it about 5 years ago, was less than £5,000. I got a quote from Sportmotive for the all the neccesary bits, and it was £18,000, installation labour was just £3,000 on top.
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