996 GT3 investment according to Sunday Times

[TGJR]

I see the Sunday Times has listed a 996 GT3 as 4/5 for investment potential in a feature by the founder of Evo mag. There were a handful of cars including two that I have previously owned - TVR Griff and an Elise Mk1.

The 996 GT3 is often being billed as an investment and it is easy to see why. It is one of the best cars produced by Porsche and at £35-40k is great value compared to the likes of 964RS's at £60K+. It does always tend to be the mk1 that is featured but I think the mk2 will be up there too.

Happy New Year GT3 owners

Edited by TGJR on Sunday 3rd January 10:42

Edited by TGJR on Sunday 3rd January 10:42

[rlw]

Thanks for that - mine is my pension scheme (apparently) and is now pampered.................

[tracydeedance]

Mk1 GT3s are getting rare and excellent value for money at the moment
and wont be around at this price forever as they are now 11years old for the first 1999 year model.
So the only way is up as soon as people realise that most exotic early stuff is beyond reach for most of us.
Cliff.

[Gompo]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_...

[996Weissach]

I just had to have one after the first 100 yards.

I decided on a project to make her concours before reading this article or considering its value. I want her factory fresh outside, inside and underneath. She is my 911 Heaven

NB: jackal's OCD website is a handy reference.

[johnny senna]

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

[jeremyc]

johnny senna said:

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

[TomBoo]

Rarity.

[Bubbles996]

If it's a matter of rarity over ability...what about the Sports Classic (250 built), the 996 Millennium (911 built) or the 40th Anniversary (1964? built) - one can only hope.

[Diesel130]

johnny senna said:

... Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3...

Very good point. I see some 997GT3's now sub 60K. So, if it was a choice of a 6gt3 at 45K or a 7gt3 at 55K, i'd go for the 7. However, with some 6gt3's available sub 40K, that pressure is not there yet (for me).

[TGJR]

I think it is a flawed assumption that as 997 GT3 prices drop then 996 GT3's will be squeezed down reactively. There are reasons and precedents as to why this would not necessarily happen.

I've started to grow a beard too

[johnny senna]

jeremyc said:

johnny senna said:

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play.

[Slippydiff]

johnny senna said:

jeremyc said:

johnny senna said:

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play.

Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)

Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)

The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)

I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.

Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )

We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?

[TGJR]

I tend to agree that the mk1 GT3 will lead the way with strong values in a few years time, however, I think the mk 2 will be not far behind.

Lets say, for arguments sake, that in 2018 a good mk1 GT3 with 60k miles on the clock is fetching £50k. Surely some potential buyers will look at the mk2 as an option if they are priced at say circa £40k?

It's a tough call to predict prices in 5-10 years time but of all the Porsches built in the past 10 years and currently available for less than £60k my order of 'investment' potential would be:

1) 996 GT3 RS
2) 996 GT3 Mk1
3) 996 GT3 mk2
4) 996 GT2
5) 997 GT3 (RS not available at sub £60k yet)
6) 996 Turbo

[johnny senna]

Slippydiff said:

johnny senna said:

jeremyc said:

johnny senna said:

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play.

Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)

Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)

The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)

I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.

Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )

We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?

I still think the 996 GT3 is much closer in size/character etc to a 997 GT3 than either a 993 or 964 RS. I reckon the beards will encourage the value of the mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS to go up, but the beards cannot work miracles. The price rise for the mark 1 996 GT3 and RS will be modest at best. Say 50 grand for a good mark 1 GT3 in a few years and 65 grand for the RS. But in a few years, people with sense will realise that a 997 GT3 is much better value for less money (in say 3-6 years time) and choose a 997 over a 996, hence the demand for the mark 1 GT3 will not be as high as it has been for the 993/964RS and its value will not rise quite so high.
The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them.

So, I predict:

Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years.
All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable.

[DanH]

Whilst there is downwards pressure whilst still competing with current models, one has to remember they are going up in price which gives some breathing room.

I think the 996 will do ok as its the last of the cars which were 90% mechanical engineering whereas the newer ones are more and more electrical engineering. They are also easier to drive, so I think the challenge and the mechanical nature give the 6 something special. The electrical engineering is just going to date.

Ultimately I don't care as its not an investment and whilst I've not really had too much depreciation pain as it goes for cars, I've more than compensated with servicing costs keeping it in top condition!

Edited by DanH on Monday 4th January 19:47

[Slippydiff]

johnny senna said:

Slippydiff said:

johnny senna said:

jeremyc said:

johnny senna said:

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about.

On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable.

In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play.

Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it)

Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion)

The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS.
Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO
)
The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway)

I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after.

Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . )

We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?

I still think the 996 GT3 is much closer in size/character etc to a 997 GT3 than either a 993 or 964 RS. I reckon the beards will encourage the value of the mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS to go up, but the beards cannot work miracles. The price rise for the mark 1 996 GT3 and RS will be modest at best. Say 50 grand for a good mark 1 GT3 in a few years and 65 grand for the RS. But in a few years, people with sense will realise that a 997 GT3 is much better value for less money (in say 3-6 years time) and choose a 997 over a 996, hence the demand for the mark 1 GT3 will not be as high as it has been for the 993/964RS and its value will not rise quite so high.
The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them.

So, I predict:

Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years.
All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable.

Still not convinced If your theory is correct there'd be no 996 RSs on the market and lots of 993 and 964RSs unsold, as in your words "those with sense will realise that a 996 GT3 RS is much better value for less money" ?

IMO the MK1 GT3 feels pretty agricultural already (when compared with the 997 GT3 GEN 1 & 2) and I shudder to think what it'll feel like compared to the 998 . . . .

On the basis of feeling like the "old stuff" the Mk1 has got a lot of the traits the beardies consider an integral part of proper GT/RS 911 ownership.

[jackal]

with the 996 the specialness has a much wider spread
ignoring air vs. water for a second, the specialness has been diluted (and the 997 even more so !)

So you cannot expect 996 and 997 to follow suit a La 993, 964 etc..

Leaving aside the GT2 for a second... with the 993 we had the RS. With the 964 we had the RS.
With 996 we had the GT3 mki, GT3 mkii and then the GT3 RS. That's a lot more cars and 3 different models.



In my book that makes at least the gT3's (mki and ii) a different kettle of fish to the 993rs and 964rs.

If the money is on one kettle, its the 996 GT3RS. Its the really special one that everyone will want and what, only 500 were ever made. Less than half the number of 993rs's.

Edited by jackal on Monday 4th January 20:14

[supermono]

I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention.

The GT2 is faster (massively so!) rarer, better looking, etc, etc. In fact in every measurable way it's better.

For these reasons I'm pretty confident that in the next few years enough people will open their eyes to the tremendous GT2 that it'll become properly collectable.

Hell there's probably fewer than 100 RHD GT2s in existance now, how much rarer do you want???

SM

[jeremyc]

supermono said:

I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention.

Because it has no motorsport provenance.

The 964RS, 993RS and GT3s have all been used extensively in racing; the 996 (and onwards) GT2s haven't had such a role. The 993 GT2 did star on track, contributing to the stellar values they achieve.

Edited by jeremyc on Monday 4th January 21:00