Winter tyres vol 2

[E-bmw]

loskie said:

I was scoffed at in true PH style 18m or so ago for saying I'd bought Davanti Alltoura all seasons and fitted them to my Golf Alltrack. £95 per corner.

Much to the naysayers disappointment I haven't died in a ditch yet.

I doubt you will find anyone said you will "die in a ditch" due to fitting cheap tyres, but I am pretty sure many will have said something pointing towards the fact that at the time you need good rubber the most they may well not do what you NEED them to do in an emergency.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre-Tests/2024-Auto-B...

4m behind the pack in dry braking, 10m behind in wet braking.

10m is a VERY long way & you would still be doing a significant speed when many have already stopped.

[BlindedByTheLights]

BlindedByTheLights said:

ATM said:

BlindedByTheLights said:

Davie said:

BlindedByTheLights said:

I’ve just fitted vredistein wintrac pro’s on the rear (rwd) and now the car feels like a nervous jelly to drive. I’ve never felt so much tyre roll it is scary, struggle to put any power down and the tc light is now very active. Tc light was flashing away on a gentle motorway bend at 70mph!

These are the first winter tyres I’ve ever used so I’ve no benchmark. Car is usually on PS4’s which were fine when warm but at 2 degrees we’re a bit slippy.

I'm a bit lost, apologies... but the car was on PS4 so did you fit the Wintrac Pro on the rear at the same time as fitting the Alpins on the front? And are these the first set of full winters you've run on the back? If so, they will feel massively differently to a part worn PS4, especially in wet / mild / dry conditions... the full winters will move around a hell of a lot, especially compared to a PS4 and especially on the back of a BMW. In some cases, the benefits of full winters (ie better grip in proper winter weather) won't outweigh the downsides, ie a lack of stability / grip / control in milder weather.

I think you’re probably spot on with this, I’ve taken them back off for now and will stick them on if we get snow. I’ve actually got better grip on the PS4’s at the moment than the vredestein’s

So are you mixing winters front and winters rear?

Are they run flat?

My friend mixed winter run flat and winter go flat front to rear [can't remember which way round] and the car was un drivable over about 50 because it would start see sawing

If you've never experienced winters then yes they can feel squidgy or mushy. Best way I like to explain it to newbies, the tread on a winter is like a toothbrush. So as it rolls around the bristles dig into the surface which is how they find grip on ice. Obviously this means they'll grip less overall compared to a tyre with massive blocks of tread. And yes new winters have around 10mm of tread which will behave very differently to a worn pair with say 5mm.

So you need to get adjusted to a different driving style. You can still give the car some welly but it will be more akin to skippering a yacht where you turn but the car starts to lean first before it then starts to turn. But it will turn eventually. Just imagine driving on soft sand or think about a toothbrush for a tyre.

Makes sense, I like the analogy! As I’ve never driven on winters it felt very odd, possibly some snow incoming next week so they should go back on. No they are non run flat and both winter front and rear, albeit two brands.

Thpught id update, had the vredestein wintrac pro’s on the rear for over 1000 miles now and the the grip has really improved, I wonder if there was some release agent or similar that was making them slippy to begin with. They do still move about a bit but from reading others comments that’s normal.

[Sheepshanks]

RicksAlfas said:

For that kind of usage I would get a decent brand winter tyre and leave them on all year round. You’re not trying to set qualifying laps round Abu Dhabi.

On a car just used for knocking about that’s what we did before All Seasons became a big thing - we ran a Honda Jazz year round on Michelin Alpins. No issues at all and they even lasted better than the original Dunlop SP2030’s the car had from new.

During COVID, I left the winter tyres on wife’s Tiguan one year and it was fine.

Years ago, Continental said if you were choosing one tyre for year round use in the UK then a winter tyre would be best. I guess the winter biased All Seasons meet that now.

[RicksAlfas]

Gad-Westy said:

Oh that's interesting. I haven't got the car yet so I just stuck the reg into black circles and that's the size that came back. So that might open up a few new options. Much appreciated.

Neighbours Panda 4x4 is on 15s:

[Gad-Westy]

RicksAlfas said:

Gad-Westy said:

Oh that's interesting. I haven't got the car yet so I just stuck the reg into black circles and that's the size that came back. So that might open up a few new options. Much appreciated.

Neighbours Panda 4x4 is on 15s:

Cheers. Yeah info on black circles was wrong. So I think it will now be CC2’s. I was quite keen on the conti allseason 2 but it looks like that’s not available. Seems to me that the CC2 is probably still the best all season with snow bias of the available options.

[Pica-Pica]

Sheepshanks said:

RicksAlfas said:

For that kind of usage I would get a decent brand winter tyre and leave them on all year round. You’re not trying to set qualifying laps round Abu Dhabi.

On a car just used for knocking about that’s what we did before All Seasons became a big thing - we ran a Honda Jazz year round on Michelin Alpins. No issues at all and they even lasted better than the original Dunlop SP2030’s the car had from new.

During COVID, I left the winter tyres on wife’s Tiguan one year and it was fine.

Years ago, Continental said if you were choosing one tyre for year round use in the UK then a winter tyre would be best. I guess the winter biased All Seasons meet that now.

Previous interactions of Continental winter tyres have performed reasonably well in U.K. summertime, the TS850/860 I believe.

[RicksAlfas]

Gad-Westy said:

Cheers. Yeah info on black circles was wrong. So I think it will now be CC2’s. I was quite keen on the conti allseason 2 but it looks like that’s not available. Seems to me that the CC2 is probably still the best all season with snow bias of the available options.

I’ve got those on my Volvo and they are excellent in the snow. Would be ideal if you can get them in your size.

[ChocolateFrog]

Shopping for some CC2's for my mums Volvo.

235/55/19 from memory and with 15% off on Blackcircles they're only about £20 more than i paid in 16in guise on my car.

Relative bargain for the larger size I reckon. The discount made them cheaper than the Vred's so makes them a no brainer.

[Gtom]

Gad-Westy said:

We have a Panda 4x4 Twinair on the way. It'll be a 'spare' car but the main driver for buying it is to be the unstoppable winter use. Our road isn't easy to access in bad conditions and this week has been a total pain to be honest. I'd like a tyre for it that is very biased towards snow/winter but that isn't a total disaster to use all year round.

I've used Michelin CC2's on other cars and I think they would fit the brief perfectly but it looks like only the CC+ is available in 176/65/14.

All season options on black circles and tyre leader look like:

Michelin CC+ £98
Vredestein Q5 £61
Goodyear Vector 4S G3 £66
Conti Allseason Contact £66
Goodyear Vector 4S £105
Kumho Solus £61

There are a few other more mid-range options from Toyo, Uniroyal, Hancook etc. I've not listed everthing.

There are also a few full winter options from Kumho, Michelin, Vred and Goodyear. I'd assume these will be too compromised in warmer months but open to persuasion.

Would appreciate some thoughts. I'm probably thinking it's between the Conti Allseason Contact and the Goodyear Vector 4S G3. We have the Goodyears on our E-Up as a winter tyre and I'm not totally bowled over by it's snow performance but it might still be the best option. Don't know much about the Conti.

If the car isn’t going to be doing mega miles why not run full winters on it?

I ran my transit custom on winters for 3 years/20k without any problems.

[Davie]

I ran Dunlop whatever-they-were full winters beyond winter on a previous V70 and whilst there were no glaring or dramatic performance differences, they did start to tear up quite quickly. They were also pretty poor in warmer, greasy weather.

Again, on you average runabout with an average driver doing average stuff, probably be hard pushed to tell the difference between a range of tyres... only when you start pushing the boundaries do the differences become more pronounced.

My mother runs about on Nankang winters on her Mazda, pootles to town and back twice a week... she wouldn't care nor notice if I swapped them to summer biased tyres, budget all seasons or cut slicks.

Like most things, it'll be fine right up until the point it's not...

[Gad-Westy]

Gtom said:

Gad-Westy said:

We have a Panda 4x4 Twinair on the way. It'll be a 'spare' car but the main driver for buying it is to be the unstoppable winter use. Our road isn't easy to access in bad conditions and this week has been a total pain to be honest. I'd like a tyre for it that is very biased towards snow/winter but that isn't a total disaster to use all year round.

I've used Michelin CC2's on other cars and I think they would fit the brief perfectly but it looks like only the CC+ is available in 176/65/14.

All season options on black circles and tyre leader look like:

Michelin CC+ £98
Vredestein Q5 £61
Goodyear Vector 4S G3 £66
Conti Allseason Contact £66
Goodyear Vector 4S £105
Kumho Solus £61

There are a few other more mid-range options from Toyo, Uniroyal, Hancook etc. I've not listed everthing.

There are also a few full winter options from Kumho, Michelin, Vred and Goodyear. I'd assume these will be too compromised in warmer months but open to persuasion.

Would appreciate some thoughts. I'm probably thinking it's between the Conti Allseason Contact and the Goodyear Vector 4S G3. We have the Goodyears on our E-Up as a winter tyre and I'm not totally bowled over by it's snow performance but it might still be the best option. Don't know much about the Conti.

If the car isn’t going to be doing mega miles why not run full winters on it?

I ran my transit custom on winters for 3 years/20k without any problems.

Honestly, my concern is simply that they perform so poorly in non-winter type scenarios. Or least seem to based on test data. I know many will have had no problems and we can always drive in a manner to suit the grip level of the car but braking distances in particular are terrible in wet/dry compared to 'normal' tyres and I'm just slightly concerned about that one time when you need to stop in a hurry.... I haven't totally ruled it out and I did want to pick through some of the tyre tests to see if there are any winter options that do an acceptable job in non-winter conditions.

Do they also possibly wear quicker in warm conditions or is that a non-issue?

[RicksAlfas]

I honestly think this is a problem of too much information. Any tyre is a compromise. For your use I would rather have slightly less grip in summer. And we are talking very slightly - the difference between a top All Season tyre and a top Winter tyre. You are buying a car whose USP is excellent winter driving. I would give it the best winter tyres I could. If you would be happier on All Seasons, the CC2 performs excellently in snow.

[Gad-Westy]

RicksAlfas said:

I honestly think this is a problem of too much information. Any tyre is a compromise. For your use I would rather have slightly less grip in summer. And we are talking very slightly - the difference between a top All Season tyre and a top Winter tyre. You are buying a car whose USP is excellent winter driving. I would give it the best winter tyres I could. If you would be happier on All Seasons, the CC2 performs excellently in snow.

Definitely always a compromise. No argument there. I think I'm leaning slightly the other way though in that I've used CC2's on a RWD 5 series for 4 years now and really only ever been scuppered by ground clearance or ice. In both of those scenarios I don't think the tyres were that big a factor. Granted I do pick my battles in terms of getting around. We live on a steep hill and I tend to make sure I start any journey in snow going downhill even if it means going the long way. Coming back up I have a run up! But I'm thinking that the Panda should really be able to do anything I need it to on a CC2 (or similar AS tyre) without that being all that much of a compromise the rest of time. Does a great winter tyre really do a whole heap better in snow than a CC2 to offset how much worse it is in warmer weather? I'm not an expert but I'm not convinced they do. It is annoying that a CC2 is typically the most expensive option though!

[blue al]

E-bmw said:

loskie said:

I was scoffed at in true PH style 18m or so ago for saying I'd bought Davanti Alltoura all seasons and fitted them to my Golf Alltrack. £95 per corner.

Much to the naysayers disappointment I haven't died in a ditch yet.

I doubt you will find anyone said you will "die in a ditch" due to fitting cheap tyres, but I am pretty sure many will have said something pointing towards the fact that at the time you need good rubber the most they may well not do what you NEED them to do in an emergency.

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Tyre-Tests/2024-Auto-B...

4m behind the pack in dry braking, 10m behind in wet braking.

10m is a VERY long way & you would still be doing a significant speed when many have already stopped.

17 mtrs behind the best….or should we actually say 17mtrs in front by the time you stopped,
I appreciate it’s your money, but I’m not seeing 95 quid a corner as bargain basement anyway
And we do seem have more rain than any other sort of weather …at least it’s dry some days when it’s only 9th worst out of 10 tested…

Yet I do see buy again rating as quite high, so perhaps it’s just better with a few miles on it,
So not the 1st time I’ve seen contradiction on buy again vs test results,

Edited by blue al on Saturday 11th January 13:53

[Speed addicted]

Gad-Westy said:

Definitely always a compromise. No argument there. I think I'm leaning slightly the other way though in that I've used CC2's on a RWD 5 series for 4 years now and really only ever been scuppered by ground clearance or ice. In both of those scenarios I don't think the tyres were that big a factor. Granted I do pick my battles in terms of getting around. We live on a steep hill and I tend to make sure I start any journey in snow going downhill even if it means going the long way. Coming back up I have a run up! But I'm thinking that the Panda should really be able to do anything I need it to on a CC2 (or similar AS tyre) without that being all that much of a compromise the rest of time. Does a great winter tyre really do a whole heap better in snow than a CC2 to offset how much worse it is in warmer weather? I'm not an expert but I'm not convinced they do. It is annoying that a CC2 is typically the most expensive option though!

My wife’s Discovery sport is on CC2s after the Pirelli’s it came with.
I chose the CC2s as I’ve used CCs previously and my wife isn’t really interested.
Having used them in the current snow/ice in NE Scotland (including about 8” of snow) I’m impressed with them.

Obviously the Landrover is a fairly capable thing in the first place but the levels of grip available make it feel very secure.

When I had BMWs I had summer and winter wheels, I think that all seasons have probably got to the point that they’re good enough almost all of the time.

[Konan]

BlindedByTheLights said:

Thpught id update, had the vredestein wintrac pro’s on the rear for over 1000 miles now and the the grip has really improved, I wonder if there was some release agent or similar that was making them slippy to begin with. They do still move about a bit but from reading others comments that’s normal.

You tend to swap to winters when it's going to be cold and damp, so not ideal conditions to be scrubbing in either. It's definately a thing. Not quite winter tyres but I once did a track day in about 5 degrees and damp/wet on a freshly mounted set of NS2/R and only drove 90 miles (in the rain) to get there. My laps early in the day were like being on space savers! Any hint of getting in to the turbo flicked between comedy understeer or oversteer depending which end let go first.

Something I've never heard of but I *think* i've detected is a need to put a few miles on tyres after they've been in storage. I've switched over to my Hankook 4 seasons twice now and both times, for the first hundred miles or so I've thought 'oh dear' as they've felt really really nervous. Once i've got a few miles on them, I can't really tell them apart from my summer UHPs in regular driving (I'd actually not bother with 2 sets if I didn't already run 2 sets of wheels, i'm kind of locked into the cycle now!).

Anyone know what happens to them in storage? Do they go hard where they've been exposed to the air or something?

[stevieturbo]

Gad-Westy said:

Honestly, my concern is simply that they perform so poorly in non-winter type scenarios. Or least seem to based on test data. I know many will have had no problems and we can always drive in a manner to suit the grip level of the car but braking distances in particular are terrible in wet/dry compared to 'normal' tyres and I'm just slightly concerned about that one time when you need to stop in a hurry.... I haven't totally ruled it out and I did want to pick through some of the tyre tests to see if there are any winter options that do an acceptable job in non-winter conditions.

Do they also possibly wear quicker in warm conditions or is that a non-issue?

They would do, but how many miles do you intend to do in either weather ? Is the car just a runabout for winter ? or all year ?

[E-bmw]

I must admit, I haven't data-checked this as without your size or specific tyre list I can't really.

Having said that:

WRT winter tyre performance in summer, I would have thought good ones were closer to summer than you seem to be suggesting.

WRT wear on winters in summer, I wouldn't have thought a Panda would really be pushing the tyres enough for this to be an issue.

If it were my "winter runabout" I would fit good winters & be dammed.

[Pica-Pica]

E-bmw said:

I must admit, I haven't data-checked this as without your size or specific tyre list I can't really.

Having said that:

WRT winter tyre performance in summer, I would have thought good ones were closer to summer than you seem to be suggesting.

WRT wear on winters in summer, I wouldn't have thought a Panda would really be pushing the tyres enough for this to be an issue.

If it were my "winter runabout" I would fit good winters & be dammed.

I would seek an allseason, with winter bias.
That is:-
Good sipes for ice, and open blocks for snow and mud, but with a compound that can cope with summer temperatures. It would be best to check tyre reviews that test winter tyres in summer temperatures. TyreReviews have done a few like that.
It sounds like a Continental All season is what is required, they do them down to 14” sizes.

[Gad-Westy]

E-bmw said:

I must admit, I haven't data-checked this as without your size or specific tyre list I can't really.

Having said that:

WRT winter tyre performance in summer, I would have thought good ones were closer to summer than you seem to be suggesting.

WRT wear on winters in summer, I wouldn't have thought a Panda would really be pushing the tyres enough for this to be an issue.

If it were my "winter runabout" I would fit good winters & be dammed.

I think the trouble is that although the car probably wouldn't have been bought at all if wasn't for a need to keep moving in snowy/icy weather, the reality is that the vast majority of the time, we have neither of those things and the car will be used for bits and bobs all year round. Picked the car up this morning. It's on some cheapo 'run(a)way' tyres at present. It's funny though, even on those, it absolutely flew up our hill so traction is not a problem. Steering and braking, ermmm, not so great. No decision made yet and I've appreciated everyone's input. Probably still slightly more leaning towards AS tyres but there is that slight temptation to just make a if a full winter weapon. Two sets of wheels is out of the question.