Discussion
Panic in the kit-car market set in recently when a story circulated that the DVLA were seen at the Stoneleigh show, lap tops in hand, vetting cars registration numbers against what the car now was and pulling registrations on the spot. Turned out to be fake news, but it could happen I suppose if they get really nasty. The point is that there are a lot of people out there sitting on cars that cost considerable sums who could be burned. Just take the instance of a DB4 having the chassis shortened and rebuilding it as a Zagato. How many Le Mans Bentleys were a Mk V1 when originally built? The list goes on and on.
No doubt this will also have a knock on effect for the magazine industry, who's going to want to have a car featured if they have cut a monocouque about or changed anything that would cause an issue, if it gets picked up on that's £££££ potentially gone for the owner, the 'new' rules have been in place for a long time, the DVLA have created the issue by not enforcing them (hence the 30 year exemption) I wouldn't consider buying anything that didn't resemble what was on the V5 (model wise)
It was quite commonplace to use the donor car identity when building a kit or special. The old V5 even had a section whereby the body style could be changed without the need for inspection or proof.
For example - the end result could be a car registered as a Jaguar 420 2 seater sports as opposed to a Jaguar 420 saloon.
Given that the resulting vehicle was indeed a 2 seater sports and was subject to an annual MOT I don't see that much harm was done in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps an amnesty could be introduced for such cars.
For example - the end result could be a car registered as a Jaguar 420 2 seater sports as opposed to a Jaguar 420 saloon.
Given that the resulting vehicle was indeed a 2 seater sports and was subject to an annual MOT I don't see that much harm was done in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps an amnesty could be introduced for such cars.
mk1coopers said:
No doubt this will also have a knock on effect for the magazine industry, who's going to want to have a car featured if they have cut a monocouque about or changed anything that would cause an issue, if it gets picked up on that's £££££ potentially gone for the owner, the 'new' rules have been in place for a long time, the DVLA have created the issue by not enforcing them (hence the 30 year exemption) I wouldn't consider buying anything that didn't resemble what was on the V5 (model wise)
Quite.I've no connection to the kit car world, but in the 'custom/street rod' world many build threads have been pulled from forums, social media and blogs etc in the past 12 months as well people being cagey about any mag features etc. I even know of a few people that have stopped taking their cars to shows and events!
It's very sad. This country is very much the home of the kit, specialist and modified car industry. I honestly don't see any logic in all this. None of DVLA, HMG or the great British public gain on any front. Many individuals lose a source of harmless pleasure, apart from taking a hit to their finances, and an industry that employs people and exports is put at risk.
Peter3442 said:
It's very sad. This country is very much the home of the kit, specialist and modified car industry. I honestly don't see any logic in all this. None of DVLA, HMG or the great British public gain on any front. Many individuals lose a source of harmless pleasure, apart from taking a hit to their finances, and an industry that employs people and exports is put at risk.
Well said.Peter3442 said:
It's very sad. This country is very much the home of the kit, specialist and modified car industry. I honestly don't see any logic in all this. None of DVLA, HMG or the great British public gain on any front. Many individuals lose a source of harmless pleasure, apart from taking a hit to their finances, and an industry that employs people and exports is put at risk.
Exactly. Petty bureaucrats reminding us that they have the power and trying to demonstrate to their bosses that they are actually doing something. Mike-tf3n0 said:
Peter3442 said:
It's very sad. This country is very much the home of the kit, specialist and modified car industry. I honestly don't see any logic in all this. None of DVLA, HMG or the great British public gain on any front. Many individuals lose a source of harmless pleasure, apart from taking a hit to their finances, and an industry that employs people and exports is put at risk.
Exactly. Petty bureaucrats reminding us that they have the power and trying to demonstrate to their bosses that they are actually doing something. 
Rich, that's a good question.
The answer depends on how DVLA apply the rules (or even obey them). It seems that DVLA can be deliberately difficult. Very few W.O. Bentleys had racing bodywork when originally registered, while nowadays very many do and other mechanical modifs. Many of the owners will have difficulty proving the date of modification. And if they can, will the DVLA accept that proof or re-register the Bentleys as kit cars on Q plates. Looking at Lowdrag's and A.G.'s experiences, there's little reason why they shouldn't do exactly that.
Closer to my own heart, I can accept that most Beacham Jaguar Mk2s might be treated as 'new' the date they came out of Beacham's shop or the date of the engine installed in them. But should that apply to a car modified with coils, rack and pinion steering and a larger capacity XK engine?
Apart from registration plates, date is a factor in emissions requirements, which can make life very complicated.
The answer depends on how DVLA apply the rules (or even obey them). It seems that DVLA can be deliberately difficult. Very few W.O. Bentleys had racing bodywork when originally registered, while nowadays very many do and other mechanical modifs. Many of the owners will have difficulty proving the date of modification. And if they can, will the DVLA accept that proof or re-register the Bentleys as kit cars on Q plates. Looking at Lowdrag's and A.G.'s experiences, there's little reason why they shouldn't do exactly that.
Closer to my own heart, I can accept that most Beacham Jaguar Mk2s might be treated as 'new' the date they came out of Beacham's shop or the date of the engine installed in them. But should that apply to a car modified with coils, rack and pinion steering and a larger capacity XK engine?
Apart from registration plates, date is a factor in emissions requirements, which can make life very complicated.
Thanks for the answer Peter. I didn't want to open up pandora's box, and not owning such a car, but being interested in all cars, I wanted to better understand the arguments here. I was seriously close to getting a Suffolk SS100 prior to buying my Aston but decided I preferred to own a genuine model of something I could afford rather than a copy of something I could not. The same reason my Lagonda is not an LG45 
But, I like all cars, so take an interest in this issue.
But, I like all cars, so take an interest in this issue. Peter3442 said:
Rich, that's a good question.
The answer depends on how DVLA apply the rules (or even obey them). It seems that DVLA can be deliberately difficult. Very few W.O. Bentleys had racing bodywork when originally registered, while nowadays very many do and other mechanical modifs. Many of the owners will have difficulty proving the date of modification. And if they can, will the DVLA accept that proof or re-register the Bentleys as kit cars on Q plates. Looking at Lowdrag's and A.G.'s experiences, there's little reason why they shouldn't do exactly that.
Closer to my own heart, I can accept that most Beacham Jaguar Mk2s might be treated as 'new' the date they came out of Beacham's shop or the date of the engine installed in them. But should that apply to a car modified with coils, rack and pinion steering and a larger capacity XK engine?
Apart from registration plates, date is a factor in emissions requirements, which can make life very complicated.
In my case Peter, I had proof that the car was modified over 30 years ago but still they refused to accept the fact and withdrew my registration. Which begs the question as to what has happened to my private plate as well. The DVLA. I hear, have employed poachers turned gamekeepers from the restomod world, but that could just be hearsay and taken with a pinch of salt until definitive proof is forthcoming. And Pandora's box seems to be opening whether we like it or not. What about all the Austin 7 hill-climb specials built pre-war for example?The answer depends on how DVLA apply the rules (or even obey them). It seems that DVLA can be deliberately difficult. Very few W.O. Bentleys had racing bodywork when originally registered, while nowadays very many do and other mechanical modifs. Many of the owners will have difficulty proving the date of modification. And if they can, will the DVLA accept that proof or re-register the Bentleys as kit cars on Q plates. Looking at Lowdrag's and A.G.'s experiences, there's little reason why they shouldn't do exactly that.
Closer to my own heart, I can accept that most Beacham Jaguar Mk2s might be treated as 'new' the date they came out of Beacham's shop or the date of the engine installed in them. But should that apply to a car modified with coils, rack and pinion steering and a larger capacity XK engine?
Apart from registration plates, date is a factor in emissions requirements, which can make life very complicated.
It does seem very odd that with all the proof you had to date the modifications they still pulled the registration number, now that the car is correctly registered in France and Brexit is still ongoing could it not be re-imported using the French documents (not that you probably want the hassle of doing this)
I've mentioned before I've also got a heavily modified car, I've got period magazine proof of when it was done, evidence including pictures and the original conversion receipt and it is correctly registered on the V5 but it still puts a niggle in the back of my head that one day someone will decide that a car that has existed in it's modified form for nearly 50 years can't be used on the road anymore.
I've mentioned before I've also got a heavily modified car, I've got period magazine proof of when it was done, evidence including pictures and the original conversion receipt and it is correctly registered on the V5 but it still puts a niggle in the back of my head that one day someone will decide that a car that has existed in it's modified form for nearly 50 years can't be used on the road anymore.
Doesn't it depend on what the vehicle is registered as ?
Clearly a highly modified mini (for example) is still a mini and should be able to retain it's identity.
A Jaguar C Type replica that is registered as a Jaguar saloon (for example) is clearly not what it says on the V5C and understandably should be corrected.
Are any of the organisations , that supposedly represent our hobby, addressing these inconsistencies and advising the DVLA ?
As for Q plates, I've never seen their purpose, the only thing they seem to do is devalue the vehicle they're assigned too.
Clearly a highly modified mini (for example) is still a mini and should be able to retain it's identity.
A Jaguar C Type replica that is registered as a Jaguar saloon (for example) is clearly not what it says on the V5C and understandably should be corrected.
Are any of the organisations , that supposedly represent our hobby, addressing these inconsistencies and advising the DVLA ?
As for Q plates, I've never seen their purpose, the only thing they seem to do is devalue the vehicle they're assigned too.
I asked the FHBVC and their reply was that they did not support any replicas, only "real" cars. As regards re-importing the car, I won't bother but I would refer you to my post above where a Lynx D-type was exported to Spain, then re-imported, and was sent for an IVA. I agree that for years many have got away with murder by using the identity of another car, and any car built since 1996 SVA) or 2009 (IVA) could be in serious difficulties. But Lynx finished building cars before either existed and indeed built their first car in 1974 (my D-type was 1977) and anyway, the DVLA themselves went to Lynx and approved of what they were doing. It is all water under the bridge now, but it does irk and threads like this will make people aware of the potential problems implicit in buying a replica. There are rumours - and I specifically say rumours since I have no proof - that the DVLA, when cars are sold, are asking for photos of the car as proof it is what it says on the tin, and there are similar rumours that one manufacturer of replicas has already had a few cars pulled because their replica is not an XJ6 as the V5 states. Maybe someone has more concrete evidence on this?
lowdrag said:
But Lynx finished building cars before either existed and indeed built their first car in 1974 (my D-type was 1977) and anyway, the DVLA themselves went to Lynx and approved of what they were doing.
So, surely, DVLA would have accepted it being registered (re-identifed?) as a Lynx on the V5 with no mention of Jaguar or D-Type or XKSS wording?Just as many Escort/Cortina/Mini based kits didn't retain a V5 with Escort or Cortina on when those were used as a basis?
But they were told that there was no need so they didn't re-register the cars. And all the Lynx cars are now theoretically in danger it seems. The Eventers, the C-types, the D-types and the XKSS. They built a twin-turbo S-type saloon as well, plus five low drags but I suppose these are still E-type coupés so exempt if the V5 shows the same. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
aeropilot said:
So, surely, DVLA would have accepted it being registered (re-identifed?) as a Lynx on the V5 with no mention of Jaguar or D-Type or XKSS wording?
Just as many Escort/Cortina/Mini based kits didn't retain a V5 with Escort or Cortina on when those were used as a basis?
I know that's the route a Kougar owner had to take. I'm not sure what his car was originally registered as but he did manage to re-register it as a Kougar. It required proof from the makers that it was indeed a Kougar chassis that had been supplied new. The car retained the registration number and date of manufacture of the donor car.Just as many Escort/Cortina/Mini based kits didn't retain a V5 with Escort or Cortina on when those were used as a basis?
As per a previous poster I've never seen the point of a Q registration.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff