which classic car value is/will drop the most

which classic car value is/will drop the most

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Discussion

Yertis

18,015 posts

265 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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Norfolkandchance said:
old cars are so slow and generally inferior in any measurable way to modern cars
I don't think that's generally true, it depends on the car. I can keep up with the traffic more than will enough either of my oldies. Admittedly the TR gets a bit wearing on long journeys, but the same was true of the Evo VII I borrowed (admittedly that's a classic too). The Quattro is just like a modern car once you adjust to it being spacious and having windows big enough to see out of, and that it doesn't drive itself.

T70RPM

475 posts

235 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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The difference between now and the 'crash' in the 80's is that this really is now a Worldwide phenomina. New wealth in India, South America and the Far East has seen the market increase in demand massively. Things happen really fast now, so when a 'significant' car gets sold, the World knows for how much. I know a few dealers (most of whom don't advertise) in top drawer stuff, and believe me when I say that when people get a wobble and want to 'get out' of a DB5 or whatever, the money is there to buy it, and the 'cheap' cars never go on the market. There is plenty of ready money waiting to buy an underpriced anything, and they will never go on the open market.
I'm sure as anyone that there are plenty of cars that are overpriced. Rarity and desiribility will sort that out in due course. There is an unlimited supply (or so it seems) of some stuff, so reality will sort the wheat from the chaff at some point, but I don't expect top drawer stuff to reduce in value until NOBODY wants them anymore.

Norfolkandchance

2,010 posts

198 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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Yertis said:
Norfolkandchance said:
old cars are so slow and generally inferior in any measurable way to modern cars
I don't think that's generally true, it depends on the car. I can keep up with the traffic more than will enough either of my oldies. Admittedly the TR gets a bit wearing on long journeys, but the same was true of the Evo VII I borrowed (admittedly that's a classic too). The Quattro is just like a modern car once you adjust to it being spacious and having windows big enough to see out of, and that it doesn't drive itself.
I wasn't really thinking of 80's and 90's cars as "old", even though I absolutely agree they are classics and there is a difference between keeping up with traffic and being fast. Also they were all cars that were reasonably fast in their day and therefore aren't slow today.

More importantly, all of those 3 cars you mention are special in one way or another. Driving one of those 3 cars will always be something of an event. Something you might chose to do purely for fun on a Sunday afternoon.

Personally I wouldn't very often want to do anything very much with, for example, a 1200cc mk1 Cortina. There would be some fun in the fact that it is relatively difficult to drive and required concentration but I wouldn't be willing to pay very much to experience it regularly. Not in the way that I would with one of your cars (or one of mine). And the original thread is about values changing.

A TR or a Quattro will always be desirable cars. Will a current Ford Focus 1.6L be of any great interest or value in 30 or 40 years' time? Maybe to someone but I wouldn't have thought to a large number of people, where as a Focus RS will.





Allan L

779 posts

104 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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aeropilot said:
50mph in a Mk1 Cortina 1500 requires quite a bit more thought about what you are doing and whats going on around you
Assuming that we on this forum are motorists, I'd say 50 m.p.h. in a pre-Great War car is a much more interesting experience, particularly when the gap you leave in front of you to allow for the old brakes is regularly filled by impatient drivers of modern cars.

Despite all the differences I feel I'm in control of my 1912 Mors and that the nameless software writer who was determined that I should not feel that in my modern car has succeeded.

Yertis

18,015 posts

265 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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Norfolkandchance said:
I wasn't really thinking of 80's and 90's cars as "old", even though I absolutely agree they are classics and there is a difference between keeping up with traffic and being fast. Also they were all cars that were reasonably fast in their day and therefore aren't slow today.

More importantly, all of those 3 cars you mention are special in one way or another. Driving one of those 3 cars will always be something of an event. Something you might chose to do purely for fun on a Sunday afternoon.

Personally I wouldn't very often want to do anything very much with, for example, a 1200cc mk1 Cortina. There would be some fun in the fact that it is relatively difficult to drive and required concentration but I wouldn't be willing to pay very much to experience it regularly. Not in the way that I would with one of your cars (or one of mine). And the original thread is about values changing.

A TR or a Quattro will always be desirable cars. Will a current Ford Focus 1.6L be of any great interest or value in 30 or 40 years' time? Maybe to someone but I wouldn't have thought to a large number of people, where as a Focus RS will.



I agree. I also find it interesting that we’re preserving a very unrepresentative selection of cars for the future.

aeropilot

34,287 posts

226 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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Allan L said:
aeropilot said:
50mph in a Mk1 Cortina 1500 requires quite a bit more thought about what you are doing and whats going on around you
Assuming that we on this forum are motorists, I'd say 50 m.p.h. in a pre-Great War car is a much more interesting experience, particularly when the gap you leave in front of you to allow for the old brakes is regularly filled by impatient drivers of modern cars.
Exactly.

Back in the late 1990's I owned a 1940 BSA M20 motorcycle, and 40mph on a rigid frame and girder forked m/c with cable operated milk bottle tops for brake in modern traffic was very, err....... exciting most of the time laugh


a8hex

5,829 posts

222 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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Norfolkandchance said:
old cars are so slow and generally inferior in any measurable way to modern cars
But it's so much fun when your old car isn't. Pulling off the line keeping in step with a modern sports car (3.5L Merc or something) and waiting till they glance over at you. Then you accelerate biggrin
Of course in subjective ways modern cars and better, but that's what's so boring about them.

gothatway

5,783 posts

169 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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I think that a model has to have something other than just being old in order for it to maintain, let alone increase, value. That means it has to be innovative (Mini, Quattro, Citroen DS), or sporty (TRs, Healeys, MGs, E-types, 308s) or luxurious (Jaguar saloons, some Mercedes, Rolls/Bentleys), whereas models like BMC Farinas, Hillman Minxes, Cortinas (other than Lotus), Vauxhalls, etc. have nothing other than age on their sides. There is also of course the set of skills, knowledge and parts to be able to keep them on the road - the older the easier in general - which mitigates against your Ford Focus (even the ST ?), Evo, Impreza, Clio, etc. being a coveted model in decades time.

CRA1G

6,499 posts

194 months

Friday 12th January 2018
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Imo there's still some growth to come....! Certain models with naturally asperated straight 6's, V8's & V12's i think will only increase in value simply because they will never be repeated again and as much as i think the BMW i8 is a great car i have more pleasure driving the good old 840 V8... cloud9driving

Norfolkandchance

2,010 posts

198 months

Saturday 13th January 2018
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a8hex said:
Norfolkandchance said:
old cars are so slow and generally inferior in any measurable way to modern cars
But it's so much fun when your old car isn't. Pulling off the line keeping in step with a modern sports car (3.5L Merc or something) and waiting till they glance over at you. Then you accelerate biggrin
Of course in subjective ways modern cars and better, but that's what's so boring about them.
Just to clarify: the reason I used "measurable" was because I was trying to differentiate between rational and non-rational advantages. I was assuming that everyone on this forum realises that their classic is inferior to modern cars in measurable ways but they probably wouldn't chose to replace their classic with a "superior" modern, even though the modern cars is almost certainly faster, quieter, more reliable, more economic etc etc.

Mr Tidy

22,065 posts

126 months

Saturday 13th January 2018
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aeropilot said:
As you say, driving a 320d at 50mph is a complete non-event, but, 50mph in a Mk1 Cortina 1500 requires quite a bit more thought about what you are doing and whats going on around you wink
Interesting thread - I fell much the same! My first car was a MK2 Cortina 1500, and I've driven a few 320ds.

I would never want to have to drive another 1500 Cortina - I'd rather save some money and have a 320d! laugh

I had a couple of Capri Injections back in the 80s so when a mate of mine who knew that and deals in older cars was taking one to the mender's a couple of years ago he asked if I wanted to drive the Capri. I got in and started it, then got out and told him he could drive it - I followed to give him a lift home in my BMW 325ti! Same idea, but so much better to drive in every way - even if people will pay more for a 1.6 Capri than I paid for my 325ti.

roscobbc

3,306 posts

241 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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Some of these answers go a way to answering another question that probably needs to be asked : why does nobody ever go out for a Sunday drive out in the country? - remember when the whole family would pack a picnic basket, thermos flask and 'enjoy' the adventure of a 'drive out'?
And talking about Lotus Cortina's(and even humble GT's) - wern't they a superb drivers car 'in the day' with the very best shifting gearbox (Ford), just 4 ratios were all that were needed.

a8hex

5,829 posts

222 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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Norfolkandchance said:
a8hex said:
Norfolkandchance said:
old cars are so slow and generally inferior in any measurable way to modern cars
But it's so much fun when your old car isn't. Pulling off the line keeping in step with a modern sports car (3.5L Merc or something) and waiting till they glance over at you. Then you accelerate biggrin
Of course in subjective ways modern cars and better, but that's what's so boring about them.
Just to clarify: the reason I used "measurable" was because I was trying to differentiate between rational and non-rational advantages. I was assuming that everyone on this forum realises that their classic is inferior to modern cars in measurable ways but they probably wouldn't chose to replace their classic with a "superior" modern, even though the modern cars is almost certainly faster, quieter, more reliable, more economic etc etc.
I suspect that most people in this forum have modern cars as well as classics. I wouldn't chose to run a classic car as my everyday conveyance, I'm not that masochistic, but that doesn't stop me enjoying driving a classic more than I would enjoy driving a modern. But most times I get behind the wheel it's because I need to get from A to B and so the thrill of the drive takes second place.
I think there are measurable things that many classic do better than most moderns too. Ride quality to start with, almost all moderns have stty ride, they are overly harsh. This is at least partly due to the fashion for replacing pneumatic tyres with rubber bands. But there is also the fashion for sticking cars on stilts and the need to then compensate by replacing the springs with rocks so they don't fall over the first time they get to a corner. Drive a 60s S-Type down a road and notice how few bumps there are and you'll see what I mean. It would be interesting to know what the average height of the centre of gravity of cars these days is compared with, say, 50 years ago.

roscobbc

3,306 posts

241 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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Changing designs of cars dictates suspension design and therefore 'comfort'. SUV's, Mini-SUV's. people carriers, 'king cab' trucks, 'cross-dresser' (sorry, 'cross-over') vehicles are all leading towards taller 'cars on stilts' designs. One has to accept compromise in comfort vs handling that comes from the need to stop a tall vehicle 'falling over' when cornering.

a8hex

5,829 posts

222 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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roscobbc said:
Changing designs of cars dictates suspension design and therefore 'comfort'. SUV's, Mini-SUV's. people carriers, 'king cab' trucks, 'cross-dresser' (sorry, 'cross-over') vehicles are all leading towards taller 'cars on stilts' designs. One has to accept compromise in comfort vs handling that comes from the need to stop a tall vehicle 'falling over' when cornering.
Still prefer to refer to is as fashion rather than design. I bet the design teams are pulling their hair out trying to manage the impossible. Of course the problem with the tyres is down to the stylists.

roscobbc

3,306 posts

241 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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a8hex said:
roscobbc said:
Changing designs of cars dictates suspension design and therefore 'comfort'. SUV's, Mini-SUV's. people carriers, 'king cab' trucks, 'cross-dresser' (sorry, 'cross-over') vehicles are all leading towards taller 'cars on stilts' designs. One has to accept compromise in comfort vs handling that comes from the need to stop a tall vehicle 'falling over' when cornering.
Still prefer to refer to is as fashion rather than design. I bet the design teams are pulling their hair out trying to manage the impossible. Of course the problem with the tyres is down to the stylists.
Yes 'fashion' is the correct word - stylists try to predict or engineer a 'fashion' - engineers then attempt to 'design' it. You only need to look at the motorcycle market to see what has happened there - a confusion of differing types of the same thing - sport, super sport, race replica, tourer, sport tourer - a bit like buying one of the scores of differing kettle, toaster or coffee makers really. End result is either boiling water, toast or coffee - how many variants of the end result are actually needed? - its all 'marketing'

_Sorted_

331 posts

76 months

Tuesday 16th January 2018
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Reasoned view on classic car market using Hagerty index.

https://wolfstreet.com/2018/01/16/classic-collecto...

Norfolkandchance

2,010 posts

198 months

Wednesday 17th January 2018
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_Sorted_ said:
Reasoned view on classic car market using Hagerty index.

https://wolfstreet.com/2018/01/16/classic-collecto...
Thanks for sharing.I wonder how a decline in the top end would effect "normal" classic cars. How do Ferrari 250 prices impact MGBs?

For another attempt at clarification re my 320d comment. I was trying to say it is possible that the gulf between a modern car an a classic might become so huge that variations between models of classic / vintage might seem irrelevant. If I had a collection I might include, say and Austin 7. I'd only be interested in some form of sports model because I don't know what I'd do with a saloon and its not even that nice to look at. However, I'm sure there is variation within the sports ones. Maybe the later version have a few more bhp or bigger drums or something. (I don't know much about them, as must be clear). If I was buying an A7 maybe I wouldn't be bothered that the later version has 5 bhp more and bigger drums as they are all so slow and all have poor brakes when I compare to my modern car, or even my newer classics. It is possible to argue, therefore, that there shouldn't be much difference between a Cortina 1500 dulux and a 1200 L. Only special ones, like the Lotus, would command a premium. That would be because of what they represent - their competition history etc, than because they are a better car. They are a better car but in a spectrum that runs from Peugeot Bebe to today's 320d they are pretty much in the same place!

Rapid rental

462 posts

221 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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aeropilot said:
The thing is, with an ever more crowded and congested road network, with ever increasing infestations of speed cameras and control, maybe younger people will actually start to come around to the fact that maybe there is more enjoyment to be had in an old, slow car, as the frustrations of owning any modern performance car become ever increasing.
As you say, driving a 320d at 50mph is a complete non-event, but, 50mph in a Mk1 Cortina 1500 requires quite a bit more thought about what you are doing and whats going on around you wink
Interesting point and my thoughts exactly, I sold my 2014 Vantage and went back to driving my classics. It just dawned on me one day that I was never using all the Astons power or even a fraction of it. However my old cars were getting loads of use on all types of outings and were being driven as they should i.e with a bit of spirit.

CRA1G

6,499 posts

194 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
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If it wasn't for our lovely British weather i would use my classics for more local commutes on a daily bases,i much more enjoy the drive to work in them and strangely keeps you more alert,even the i8 can be a boring drive but obviously needed for the mile crunching journeys.... driving As for values if you don't intend ro sell it's irrelevant what's happening in the market... My 840 sport which I've had for years and a keeper,it's even in my Will.... angel