Tell me about British Leyland

[2xChevrons]

coppice said:

Not all of them didn't - although , as with Lancias, it is apparently compulsory to say they did . My first was already 3 years old when I bought it , and had not a speck of rust when I sold at 5 years old . My second was bought new and rust was the only problem it didn't have in the 3 years I had it . Unlike the first , it was shoddily built and unreliable and ruined by overgearing compared to my first Ti.

And the Suds were far, far better than the now beatified Mk 1 Golf GTi which followed them in every respect except acceleration . And actually, no , I didn't think very long about getting a Maestro EFI . But I was tempted by the Metro GTi with the lovely 1.4 K 16 valve engine which later served me so well in a Caterham - the Metro was really nice to drive but the Latins won again - all it took was planting foot to floor in an Uno Turbo . But that is another story .....

The issue with 'Suds was that the factory was (like BL) extremely prone to stoppages, and when these happened the bodyshells that were in the paint shop in unpainted or partly-painted form just sat in the humid, hot Neapolitan atmosphere. In partial stoppages it was common for bare shells to be stocked outside until the backlog was clear. In both cases the rust got a grip on the metal before the car was even complete, let alone before it left the factory. But a 'Sud that was built during one of the plant's more harmonious periods (and especially once they'd sorted the early issues with the leaky bonded windscreen) was no more likely to rust than any other 70s mass-produced small saloon. It wasn't anything to do with Soviet steel.

As I think I mentioned near the start of this thread, my father has only bought one brand new car in his life and it was a 'Sud Ti Cloverleaf. His was very much the stereotypical Alfasud experience - it needed replacement front wings for its first MoT, it needed welding to its sills for its second MoT and it needed a second set of wings for its third MoT.

I agree absolutely with your second paragraph about the superiority of the 'Sud over the Golf (and virtually all the other 'iconic' hot hatches). I was (un)fortunate enough to drive a Series I 'Sud Ti before my first goes in a MK1 Golf GTI, Ford XR3i or 205 GTI, with the result that they all felt incredible listless and wooden by comparison.

[coppice]

Sorry to drone on even more with a Sud eulogy but my first few miles in mine were so bloody memorable. I bought it in Manchester and the drive home to Lincoln was sheer magic. A driving position like a Ferrari (not that I'd driven one then) , novelties like a 5 speed box. a foot rest and even a little light which stayed on until it was warm enough to red line it. And that wonderful, rude and fruity rasp echoing off every hard surface helped too.

My first miles in my Golf Gti went like this - Christ it's quick, ouch - shame about the ride , steering feels dead .... bloody hell why don't the brakes work ?

[2xChevrons]

coppice said:

Sorry to drone on even more with a Sud eulogy but my first few miles in mine were so bloody memorable. I bought it in Manchester and the drive home to Lincoln was sheer magic. A driving position like a Ferrari (not that I'd driven one then) , novelties like a 5 speed box. a foot rest and even a little light which stayed on until it was warm enough to red line it. And that wonderful, rude and fruity rasp echoing off every hard surface helped too.

My first miles in my Golf Gti went like this - Christ it's quick, ouch - shame about the ride , steering feels dead .... bloody hell why don't the brakes work ?

Absolutely, right down the Golf GTI experience!

And it doesn't even need to be a Ti, Sprint, Veloce or Cloverleaf. Even a basic 1.2 4-speed 'Sud is an absolute joy to drive (unlike a basic Golf, let alone the GTI...). Seriously, the Best Car to Drive that I have experienced is an early Lotus Elise 160. Behind that come the 'Sud Ti and the Lotus Type 45 Elan, which I can't separate because they're both incredibly similar in terms of the overall sensation, experience and pleasure you get and their strengths and weaknesses basically dovetail. Although the fact that the Elan is a two-seater plastic-bodied sports car and the 'Sud is a four-door, four-seat front-wheel drive small saloon really puts the Alfa ahead in terms of what an achievement of design it was.

Just to try and steer this back towards BL, one of the frustrations of the whole saga is that there was no reason why BMC or BL could not have built a 'Sud. The Allegro was conceptually supposed to be along the same lines. They had the experience of making decent-handling FWD cars (not to mention Issigonis' original plans for the Minor way back in 1948 with its flat-four engine, front-wheel drive, inboard brakes - very 'Sud-like - and independent rear suspension). They wouldn't have done the flat-four in the UK in the late 60s, but a rev-happy all-alloy OHC unit (along the lines of a larger Honda EB or EC of the time) was well within their purview (and indeed existed on paper as the various 9X/K-Series/OHC-A proposals). They could have done cooking models as Austin (and/or Morris) replacements for the ADO16 and do the Ti and Sprint equivalents as successor to the MG 1300, a partial replacement for the ancient MGB and a toehold for the octagon and BL in what would become the hot-hatch market.

Rootes, Ford or Vauxhall would never have even conceived of a car like the 'Sud at that time. BL could have, and actually sort of did but didn't run with it. Which makes it all the more frustrating.

[LuS1fer]

2xChevrons said:

Rootes, Ford or Vauxhall would never have even conceived of a car like the 'Sud at that time. BL could have, and actually sort of did but didn't run with it. Which makes it all the more frustrating.

The thing is that cars had to be "very British".
We didn't want those speeedy, twin-cam, rorty sports cars dressed up as family saloons.
No, sirree...

At least not until the Dolly Sprint when it was suddenly the best idea anyone ever had.

[a8hex]

LuS1fer said:

The thing is that cars had to be "very British".
We didn't want those speeedy, twin-cam, rorty sports cars dressed up as family saloons.
No, sirree...

At least not until the Dolly Sprint when it was suddenly the best idea anyone ever had.

How about

[Dr Jekyll]

LuS1fer said:

The thing is that cars had to be "very British".
We didn't want those speeedy, twin-cam, rorty sports cars dressed up as family saloons.
No, sirree...

At least not until the Dolly Sprint when it was suddenly the best idea anyone ever had.

The Mini Cooper was very British, as was the Lotus Cortina. The idea of a 'normal' car having a sporty version wasn't particularly un British it was just the exception until the 1970s.

[Mr Tidy]

a8hex said:

How about

But that wasn't a BL product. Jaguar stopped making them before they got caught up in the BL web!

And the Italians were making interesting saloon cars in the early 60s, like these:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_2300

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_2600

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Flaminia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maserati_Quattroport...

[alabbasi]

Mr Tidy said:

But that wasn't a BL product. Jaguar stopped making them before they got caught up in the BL web!

Yep, but Jaguar was having sourcing issues and production stops before they merged with BL. I listened to a BBC podcast about BL a while back and even after all these years, it was evident that there was no hope for this company.

[a8hex]

Mr Tidy said:

But that wasn't a BL product. Jaguar stopped making them before they got caught up in the BL web!

Perhaps I'd not made my point clear

LuS1fer said:

The thing is that cars had to be "very British".
We didn't want those speeedy, twin-cam, rorty sports cars dressed up as family saloons.
No, sirree...

Speedy
twin-cam
rorty
sports cars dressed up as family saloons

but very very British

There was no shortage of British sports saloons in the companies that became BMC and BL, even if the earlier ones didn't quite tick all the boxes (twin-cam) in LuS1fer's list, but then he mentions the Sprint which of course manages to be 16V with only a single cam and sadly wasn't anything like as rorty as it should have been because they couldn't make the engine to the original spec.

Mr Tidy said:

And the Italians were making interesting saloon cars in the early 60s, like these:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_2300

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_2600

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia_Flaminia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maserati_Quattroport...

All lovely, but rather post date the Jaguar's small saloon.
The Maserati Quattroporte can't really be compared with any BL product, it would be competing with the likes of Bentley or more directly Lagonda Rapide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagonda_Rapide

Edited by a8hex on Sunday 25th October 08:24

[Yertis]

alabbasi said:

Yep, but Jaguar was having sourcing issues and production stops before they merged with BL. I listened to a BBC podcast about BL a while back and even after all these years, it was evident that there was no hope for this company.

Was that ‘The Reunion’? Worth a listen for anyone with an interest in BL.

[The Don of Croy]

Yertis said:

alabbasi said:

Yep, but Jaguar was having sourcing issues and production stops before they merged with BL. I listened to a BBC podcast about BL a while back and even after all these years, it was evident that there was no hope for this company.

Was that ‘The Reunion’? Worth a listen for anyone with an interest in BL.

I heard that on a rerun recently - should be on iPlayer on Radio 4 if anyone wants to look for it.

A chap in t’pub who worked for a BL supplier back in the day reckoned they had advance knowledge of pending stoppages via the union network, and it worked both ways...Longbridge would engineer a strike because parts were in short supply (cheaper to stop wages than pay idle workers). Who knows?

[spikeyhead]

The Don of Croy said:

I heard that on a rerun recently - should be on iPlayer on Radio 4 if anyone wants to look for it.

A chap in t’pub who worked for a BL supplier back in the day reckoned they had advance knowledge of pending stoppages via the union network, and it worked both ways...Longbridge would engineer a strike because parts were in short supply (cheaper to stop wages than pay idle workers). Who knows?

Vauxhall in Luton engineered a strike in the hot summer of 76 as it was too hot for anyone to buy a car.

They offered orange squash to the unskilled workers, lemon squash to the semi-skilled and lime to the skilled. The cruel injustice of the management reinforcing inequality in the workers caused a strike that lasted weeks. Once the management needed more cars making, everyone was offered a free choice of drink.

[a8hex]

spikeyhead said:

The cruel injustice of the management reinforcing inequality in the workers

Since at the time half the strikes seemed to be caused by different unions fighting over either "demarcation" or "differentials" it's just as possible that the difference was either at the insistence of the shop stewards or the management fearing that if they didn't differentiate that there would be strikes. Lets face it, it's a period in history when both sides seemed hell bent on destroying the whole industry.

[TarquinMX5]

a8hex said:

spikeyhead said:

The cruel injustice of the management reinforcing inequality in the workers

Since at the time half the strikes seemed to be caused by different unions fighting over either "demarcation" or "differentials"

Perhaps it was the LSD

[LuS1fer]

a8hex said:

How about

The Jag was more a luxury car and a bigger, heavier car than things like the 125 and Alfa saloons.
Sure it could be punted if you bought the 3.8 but it was still a bit of a tank.

The Mini was too small, however fleet of foot.

The Lotus Cortina is a good shout but it was rare and expensive and most bought GTs and 1600Es

[a8hex]

LuS1fer said:

a8hex said:

How about

The Jag was more a luxury car and a bigger, heavier car than things like the 125 and Alfa saloons.
Sure it could be punted if you bought the 3.8 but it was still a bit of a tank.

The Mini was too small, however fleet of foot.

The Lotus Cortina is a good shout but it was rare and expensive and most bought GTs and 1600Es

OK, I just used it as an example of a sporty British saloon. I'd picked a Mk1 BTW, so no 3.8, but the 3.4 was no slouch.
How about the MG Magnette as a 50s example of a sporty saloon, which would also count as being in the linage of the BMC/BL, although twin cam version might just be a legend. I'm not really familiar with Italian cars, but the list MrTidy posted looked more comparable with the Jag whether they were twin cam or not they're 6 cylinder cars. The Fiat 125 is clearly a much lighter but later car to which BMC had no direct competitor.

[M3DGE]

2xChevrons said:

cardigankid said:

1978 VW Golf GTi Mk.1

Like most I have my own stories, but my opinion at the time was that such uninspired cars could not be made by anyone with any serious interest in cars, and that people who lacked a serious interest in cars would not run a successful car business. And so it proved, to no great surprise, but the execs who ran it at the time thought they were whiz kids. Of course, the labour relations were impossible, and the Labour Party's unspoken promise was that it would be subsidized to protect jobs in the coming Socialist Workers' Paradise. Unfortunately for them, Mrs. T happened along.

Except that it was a Labour government which called time on the unions, appointed Michael Edwardes with an explicit mandate to 'prune the tree' and 're-establish management's right to manage', backed him in the closure of the Speke plant, the dismissal of Derek Robinson at Longbridge and the shedding of 90,000 jobs from BL and its suppliers. All before the Winter of Discontent, let along the '79 election.

As with many of these things, the success (or relative lack of failure, to be more accurate) at BL during the '80s was mostly due to groundwork done in the 75-80 period following BLMC's collapse finally bearing fruit.

I would agree with that. The ridiculous number of plants BL had in the 70s, built for employment reasons rather than business logic, had to be tackled and Edwardes did so. His book of his time there 'Back from the Brink' (not to be confused with Alisdair Darling's book of the same name!) is a good insight.

[M3DGE]

Yertis said:

alabbasi said:

Yep, but Jaguar was having sourcing issues and production stops before they merged with BL. I listened to a BBC podcast about BL a while back and even after all these years, it was evident that there was no hope for this company.

Was that ‘The Reunion’? Worth a listen for anyone with an interest in BL.

Yep, yopu can search for it on the BBC Sounds App. Good listening.

[cardigankid]

2xChevrons said:

cardigankid said:

1978 VW Golf GTi Mk.1

Like most I have my own stories, but my opinion at the time was that such uninspired cars could not be made by anyone with any serious interest in cars, and that people who lacked a serious interest in cars would not run a successful car business. And so it proved, to no great surprise, but the execs who ran it at the time thought they were whiz kids. Of course, the labour relations were impossible, and the Labour Party's unspoken promise was that it would be subsidized to protect jobs in the coming Socialist Workers' Paradise. Unfortunately for them, Mrs. T happened along.

Except that it was a Labour government which called time on the unions, appointed Michael Edwardes with an explicit mandate to 'prune the tree' and 're-establish management's right to manage', backed him in the closure of the Speke plant, the dismissal of Derek Robinson at Longbridge and the shedding of 90,000 jobs from BL and its suppliers. All before the Winter of Discontent, let along the '79 election.

As with many of these things, the success (or relative lack of failure, to be more accurate) at BL during the '80s was mostly due to groundwork done in the 75-80 period following BLMC's collapse finally bearing fruit.

Labour in the 70's were facing national bankruptcy of the type experienced by some South American countries, and carrying out a balancing act to preserve some kind of order, rather than embracing free enterprise. They put Don Ryder, a civil servant, in charge of the National Enterprise Board, and ultimately nationalised BL, but civil servants can't run businesses, that has been proved many times. There were plenty of Trots around, including in government, who remained determined to see the whole lot crash, 'to demonstrate the fundamental contradictions within the capitalist system'. There were no inspired moves, no great new products, just a rehash of the old stuff and the introduction of a Japanese car disguised as a Rover, an admission that BL was hopelessly out of its depth. I'll say this much for Sir Michael Edwardes, he prevented a catastrophic crash, and the result was a controlled landing - BL still disappeared - it was hardly a turnaround.

[Yertis]

cardigankid said:

Labour in the 70's were facing national bankruptcy of the type experienced by some South American countries, and carrying out a balancing act to preserve some kind of order, rather than embracing free enterprise. They put Don Ryder, a civil servant, in charge of the National Enterprise Board, and ultimately nationalised BL, but civil servants can't run businesses, that has been proved many times. There were plenty of Trots around, including in government, who remained determined to see the whole lot crash, 'to demonstrate the fundamental contradictions within the capitalist system'. There were no inspired moves, no great new products, just a rehash of the old stuff and the introduction of a Japanese car disguised as a Rover, an admission that BL was hopelessly out of its depth. I'll say this much for Sir Michael Edwardes, he prevented a catastrophic crash, and the result was a controlled landing - BL still disappeared - it was hardly a turnaround.

I think his ditching of the TR8 was an error. It left BL with no 'halo' model at all, just worthy/dull hatchbacks and saloons. The TR7, in convertible form and if properly assembled, was/is a good car by any (contemporary) standards. Dropping in the V8 turned it into the car it always should have been, and IMO it would have been a very strong seller in its own right as 'the 80s' got going, and given the brand some glitter. No doubt there were sound economic reasons for dropping the model, but decisions made on spreadsheets alone do not sire success.