JD Classics, what have they been up to?

JD Classics, what have they been up to?

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v8250

Original Poster:

2,724 posts

210 months

Saturday 21st April 2018
quotequote all
lowdrag said:
Having spent my life in the financial industry, I have never met anyone who would use the words "Venture Capitalists" and "Moral Fibre in the same sentence. "Money grubbing" "self-opinionated" "avaricious" are the oft-associated adjectives.
Indeed, but there are some morally good VC's out there...

GoodOlBoy

528 posts

102 months

Saturday 21st April 2018
quotequote all
I wonder how many JD customers are now looking at their cars/transactions in a different light ?

It's highly unlikely that Mr Tuke was the only customer to be royally shafted. Or to find out that the provenance of some cars was dubious.

What thoughts now on the provenance of the Bruce McLaren E Type they recently sold ? If they can create mythical buyers and sellers, a long-dead previous "owner" and rustling up a bit of "history" shouldn't be a problem. Allegedly.

Surely JD won't want this case to continue.

MuscleSaloon

1,541 posts

174 months

Saturday 21st April 2018
quotequote all
a8hex said:
While he may not have been happy with the returns he received he seems to have brought the case since he found, when he investigated some of the deals he'd been involved with, that he had been lied to and that buyers and sellers he'd been told he was dealing with through the offices of the dealer didn't exist.
Personally I find the two to be completely different.
Would he have brought the case had returns met or exceeded expectations ?

There's been plenty of skulduggery around all sorts classic cars over the years and its always comes back to being about the money.

a8hex

5,829 posts

222 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
MuscleSaloon said:
a8hex said:
While he may not have been happy with the returns he received he seems to have brought the case since he found, when he investigated some of the deals he'd been involved with, that he had been lied to and that buyers and sellers he'd been told he was dealing with through the offices of the dealer didn't exist.
Personally I find the two to be completely different.
Would he have brought the case had returns met or exceeded expectations ?

There's been plenty of skulduggery around all sorts classic cars over the years and its always comes back to being about the money.
Who can tell, but maybe.
Let's turn the money question around.
It's alleged that they were "inventing fictitious buyers and sellers" to enable them to sell cars they owned or to buy cars they wanted to be in a position to sell to someone else.
So what motivation could there be for doing this?
Could this possibly have been to increase the profit for the customer?
So perhaps the customer had made good returns but then one day discovered that they could have been making even better returns if the terms of the agreement had been stuck to.

I've been in a situation a little like that. Someone agreed to sell my time and we agreed a deal where they would retain a certain percentage for their efforts. To start with I was happy since I was earning more than I had done previously. A while later it turned out that they had been selling my time for considerably more than they'd told me and keeping a much bigger slice of the pie. Yes I was earning more than I had previously, but I was still angry that I'd been lied to and taken for a ride. There's a lot more to the story which I won't bore you with.
But the basic fact is that most people resent being lied to.


GoodOlBoy

528 posts

102 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
a8hex said:
....
It's alleged that they were "inventing fictitious buyers and sellers" to enable them to sell cars they owned or to buy cars they wanted to be in a position to sell to someone else.
So what motivation could there be for doing this?
Could this possibly have been to increase the profit for the customer? ....
I think you're very far off the mark and need to read up on it. Derek Hood/JD Classics were the beneficiaries of the fraudulent practice, not Mr Tuke.

In just one example, on JD advice, Mr Tuke paid £245k for a car from a private seller, or so he thought. The seller turned out to be fictitious. JD had already bought the car from a specialist dealer for £84k. £161k into JD's account. Hardly an increase in profit for Mr Tuke.

Dinoboy

2,494 posts

216 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
GoodOlBoy said:
I think you're very far off the mark and need to read up on it. Derek Hood/JD Classics were the beneficiaries of the fraudulent practice, not Mr Tuke.

In just one example, on JD advice, Mr Tuke paid £245k for a car from a private seller, or so he thought. The seller turned out to be fictitious. JD had already bought the car from a specialist dealer for £84k. £161k into JD's account. Hardly an increase in profit for Mr Tuke.
Arthur Daley lives.

a8hex

5,829 posts

222 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
GoodOlBoy said:
a8hex said:
....
It's alleged that they were "inventing fictitious buyers and sellers" to enable them to sell cars they owned or to buy cars they wanted to be in a position to sell to someone else.
So what motivation could there be for doing this?
Could this possibly have been to increase the profit for the customer? ....
I think you're very far off the mark and need to read up on it. Derek Hood/JD Classics were the beneficiaries of the fraudulent practice, not Mr Tuke.

In just one example, on JD advice, Mr Tuke paid £245k for a car from a private seller, or so he thought. The seller turned out to be fictitious. JD had already bought the car from a specialist dealer for £84k. £161k into JD's account. Hardly an increase in profit for Mr Tuke.
Errrrrr confused that's exactly what I was saying.

MuscleSaloon was taking issue with an earlier one of my comments.
MuscleSaloon said:
Would he have brought the case had returns met or exceeded expectations ?
Rather than responding about Mr Tuke's motivation, I was speculating about the possible motivation of Mr Hood who is alleged to have been "inventing fictitious buyers and sellers to enable him to sell cars he owned or to buy cars he wanted to be in a position to sell to someone else."
And I was asking whether anyone could think of a possible motive for these actions, and whether perhaps anyone thought it was to benefit the customer (Mr Tuke).


TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
GoodOlBoy said:
In just one example, on JD advice, Mr Tuke paid £245k for a car from a private seller, or so he thought. The seller turned out to be fictitious. JD had already bought the car from a specialist dealer for £84k. £161k into JD's account. Hardly an increase in profit for Mr Tuke.
Regardless of the alleged identity of the vendor, this does suggest that Mr Tuke was... naive at best in simply taking JD's word for values.

£84k from a dealer.
"That's £245k-worth, Sir."

<scratches head>

GoodOlBoy

528 posts

102 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
a8hex said:
Rather than responding about Mr Tuke's motivation, I was speculating about the possible motivation of Mr Hood who is alleged to have been "inventing fictitious buyers and sellers to enable him to sell cars he owned or to buy cars he wanted to be in a position to sell to someone else."
And I was asking whether anyone could think of a possible motive for these actions, and whether perhaps anyone thought it was to benefit the customer (Mr Tuke).
My apologies, I'm easily confused - and I've been in the sun too much today confused

sng45

497 posts

175 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
GoodOlBoy said:
I think you're very far off the mark and need to read up on it. Derek Hood/JD Classics were the beneficiaries of the fraudulent practice, not Mr Tuke.

In just one example, on JD advice, Mr Tuke paid £245k for a car from a private seller, or so he thought. The seller turned out to be fictitious. JD had already bought the car from a specialist dealer for £84k. £161k into JD's account. Hardly an increase in profit for Mr Tuke.
This article

https://www.am-online.com/independents/dealer-prof...


mentions that JD "aim for 10 - 15% " profit per car - so 191% on the car sold to Mr Tuke bumps the average up somewhat!

Integrity in life is rare and even rarer where car dealers are concerned !

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Sunday 22nd April 2018
quotequote all
Potentially quite worrying for staff @ JD I'd imagine frown

That does not paint DH in s good light tbh


Dr Jekyll said:
aeropilot said:
iSore said:
I wonder what Spitfire running costs are? Insurance, fuel, storage (Duxford?), maintenance. Horrendous I should think.
Around £3000 per flying hour I think is the oft quoted sum.

Couple of hundred k for a Merlin overhaul.
I saw some figures a few years back of £50,000 a year to keep it insured and stored and another £50,000 a year for routine maintenance.. Plus another £1000 a flying hour in fuel and maintenance including £400 fuel and £300 towards the 500 hour engine overhaul.

So you could probably still manage £3000 an hour if you can fly it a lot.
WRT the above the price differential of c.£12m would pay for quite a bit of flying....

Paracetamol

4,225 posts

243 months

Monday 23rd April 2018
quotequote all
GoodOlBoy said:
I think you're very far off the mark and need to read up on it. Derek Hood/JD Classics were the beneficiaries of the fraudulent practice, not Mr Tuke.

In just one example, on JD advice, Mr Tuke paid £245k for a car from a private seller, or so he thought. The seller turned out to be fictitious. JD had already bought the car from a specialist dealer for £84k. £161k into JD's account. Hardly an increase in profit for Mr Tuke.
Was the business model that JD would then sell the car onward on behalf of Mr Tuke ? ie Mr Tuke was providing secured lrnding? in this scenario lets say JD sold it on for 300k and took a 20k comission..leaving 30k for a 15 pc ish return on Tuke investment. It would have met the investment return promissed.

However its still inexcusable that the car's original price was inflated in the way it was as Mr Tuke would have rightfully made alot more money.

In a rapidly rising market I suspect that many such deals were available to DH to present to Mr T, but as things slowed I am guessing the opportunites became less and the margins tighter until losses started to incurr.

Shame because I thought JD were reassuringly expensive but now seem like all the rest

Fane

1,308 posts

199 months

Monday 23rd April 2018
quotequote all
sng45 said:
This article

https://www.am-online.com/independents/dealer-prof...


mentions that JD "aim for 10 - 15% " profit per car - so 191% on the car sold to Mr Tuke bumps the average up somewhat!

Integrity in life is rare and even rarer where car dealers are concerned !
Plus, I presume, they charged him 10% handling fee on the £245k as well.

wibble cb

3,586 posts

206 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
a8hex said:
MuscleSaloon said:
a8hex said:
While he may not have been happy with the returns he received he seems to have brought the case since he found, when he investigated some of the deals he'd been involved with, that he had been lied to and that buyers and sellers he'd been told he was dealing with through the offices of the dealer didn't exist.
Personally I find the two to be completely different.
Would he have brought the case had returns met or exceeded expectations ?

There's been plenty of skulduggery around all sorts classic cars over the years and its always comes back to being about the money.
Who can tell, but maybe.
Let's turn the money question around.
It's alleged that they were "inventing fictitious buyers and sellers" to enable them to sell cars they owned or to buy cars they wanted to be in a position to sell to someone else.
So what motivation could there be for doing this?
Could this possibly have been to increase the profit for the customer?
So perhaps the customer had made good returns but then one day discovered that they could have been making even better returns if the terms of the agreement had been stuck to.

I've been in a situation a little like that. Someone agreed to sell my time and we agreed a deal where they would retain a certain percentage for their efforts. To start with I was happy since I was earning more than I had done previously. A while later it turned out that they had been selling my time for considerably more than they'd told me and keeping a much bigger slice of the pie. Yes I was earning more than I had previously, but I was still angry that I'd been lied to and taken for a ride. There's a lot more to the story which I won't bore you with.
But the basic fact is that most people resent being lied to.
What you describe is a classic case of front running, i.e. the 'agent' knows your position and negotiates a better price for a product/service themselves knowing they will still be able to deal with you at your price and make a profit, while a certain amount of profit is expected to be made, its at best immoral/unethical, at worst highly illegal.

There seem to be similarities with what is described in this case, not 100%, but the optics don't look good.



Norfolkandchance

2,010 posts

198 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
I'm now interested in Hood's motivation.

Given the size of the business he ought to have been well paid. He must have know that what he was doing was a bit dodgy, at the very least. He was telling outright lies, not putting a positive spin on things like anybody selling something might.

So was he just greedy -saw a chance to fleece someone who was very wealthy and took it? Or was he / the firm in some form of financial difficulty and it isn't something he'd normally do but he did in desperation. Or did he mean what he said when they entered into the deal then became desperate as time went on and he realised he'd over promissed...

I guess we'll never know, but this always intrigues me when these things happen.

Edit: he is definitely worth a lot! https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/anything-goes/i...


Edited by Norfolkandchance on Tuesday 24th April 10:54

lowdrag

12,869 posts

212 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
Norfolkandchance said:
I'm now interested in Hood's motivation.
This reminds me of an interview on Radio 4 recently. A very successful russian gentleman was asked why, with an acknowledged wealth of £75 million, continued to work flat out to get richer. His reply was most interesting.

"Because many of my friends can afford to give more than I to charity, so I must continue to work to better my social standing".

Despite being rather rich, Derek Hood's lifestyle must eat up a considerable amount of money, but there again for some people the word "enough" does not apply. Personally I retired 20 years ago; when asked why, my reply is always the same; "25% of the income, zero% of the stress". If I'd continued, I would probably have become richer, but it wouldn't have been much use in the churchyard. Instead I have been able, with reduced means, to have years of enjoyment that are not given to many.


Edited by lowdrag on Tuesday 24th April 11:47

GoodOlBoy

528 posts

102 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
Norfolkandchance said:
I'm now interested in Hood's motivation.

Given the size of the business he ought to have been well paid. He must have know that what he was doing was a bit dodgy, at the very least. He was telling outright lies, not putting a positive spin on things like anybody selling something might.

Edited by Norfolkandchance on Tuesday 24th April 10:54
Isn't it probable that he was always a bit dodgy and that's how his business became so profitable in the first place. ?

I think it's naïve to assume that Mr Tuke was the only customer he took advantage of.







Elderly

3,486 posts

237 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
GoodOlBoy said:
I think it's naïve to assume that Mr Tuke was the only customer he took advantage of.
I was introduced by a friend to a neighbour of his who had recently bought a very shiny
but very easily obtainable Jaguar.

The new owner proudly volunteered the (absurdly high yikes) price he had paid for it,
and equally proudly told me which high end dealer he bought it from ..... you can guess who nono.


aeropilot

34,297 posts

226 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
Elderly said:
GoodOlBoy said:
I think it's naïve to assume that Mr Tuke was the only customer he took advantage of.
I was introduced by a friend to a neighbour of his who had recently bought a very shiny
but very easily obtainable Jaguar.

The new owner proudly volunteered the (absurdly high yikes) price he had paid for it,
and equally proudly told me which high end dealer he bought it from ..... you can guess who nono.
Reminds me of all the people that bought very expensive RS Escorts from Mike Young's Garage in Ilford back in the mid/late 1980's...........who then turned up at owners club meetings to find that they had paid waaaaaaaay over market price, for what was usually a below par car.

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Tuesday 24th April 2018
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
Elderly said:
I was introduced by a friend to a neighbour of his who had recently bought a very shiny
but very easily obtainable Jaguar.

The new owner proudly volunteered the (absurdly high yikes) price he had paid for it,
and equally proudly told me which high end dealer he bought it from ..... you can guess who nono.
Reminds me of all the people that bought very expensive RS Escorts from Mike Young's Garage in Ilford back in the mid/late 1980's...........who then turned up at owners club meetings to find that they had paid waaaaaaaay over market price, for what was usually a below par car.
If somebody is naive and does zero basic research into values pre-purchase, and just assumes that's the right price because that's what is being asked, then does the fault lie with the buyer or the seller?