Morris Marina - was it really that bad?
Discussion
Touring442 said:
The Mark III Cortina was exactly the same length as the Mark II. Slightly wider and lower, it just looked bigger.
They weren't that great either although much better than a Marina. Quite smooth and pleasant to drive in comparison. Early ones were diabolically badly made and Ford suffered a huge strike at Dagenham in late 1970 which caused major delays - but enough time to sort out the worst of the quality problems. Ford learned from the 1970 strike (9 weeks?) and designed the Mark IV to be the same as the German Taunus so that the German, Spanish and Belgian plants could be relied upon to churn out a few thousand RHD Fords when a GB plant went on strike.
BMC was still saveable by 1968 with a bit of cost cutting and product rationalisation. Joe Edwards was a fantastic production man and knew what had to be done, but refused to work under Stokes.
Mark 3's and 4's both looked a lot slicker and had much more showroom appeal. But drive them with any enthusiasm and you'd soon be on the ragged edge. They weren't that great either although much better than a Marina. Quite smooth and pleasant to drive in comparison. Early ones were diabolically badly made and Ford suffered a huge strike at Dagenham in late 1970 which caused major delays - but enough time to sort out the worst of the quality problems. Ford learned from the 1970 strike (9 weeks?) and designed the Mark IV to be the same as the German Taunus so that the German, Spanish and Belgian plants could be relied upon to churn out a few thousand RHD Fords when a GB plant went on strike.
BMC was still saveable by 1968 with a bit of cost cutting and product rationalisation. Joe Edwards was a fantastic production man and knew what had to be done, but refused to work under Stokes.
Dynamically, compared to Alfettas they were woeful. s
t dampers, rubbish suspension travel, wallowy handling, the rear axle alterrnately twisting itself in knots and trying to smash its way through the boot floor. And axle tramp. LOADS of axle tramp. The engines were quiet. I'll give you that. Er....that's about it though.
I had a Spider, based on ancient 60's underpinnings. Complete with live axle. Limited but waaayyy better.
aeropilot said:
2xChevrons said:
The 1.8s had bespoke ratios and an enlarged-diamter input shaft with more splines to try and take the torque.
Which clearly failed miserably.......or mine had the wrong gearbox(es) 
In general, BMC was a case of decent engineering crippled by bad management and Triumph was a case of shoddy engineering with just-about-adequate management. Sticking the two together basically combined all the worst bits of each, so you end up with the Marina which was a shoddily-designed car badly implemented.
2xChevrons said:
aeropilot said:
2xChevrons said:
The 1.8s had bespoke ratios and an enlarged-diamter input shaft with more splines to try and take the torque.
Which clearly failed miserably.......or mine had the wrong gearbox(es) 
AC43 said:
Mark 3's and 4's both looked a lot slicker and had much more showroom appeal. But drive them with any enthusiasm and you'd soon be on the ragged edge.
Dynamically, compared to Alfettas they were woeful. st dampers, rubbish suspension travel, wallowy handling, the rear axle alterrnately twisting itself in knots and trying to smash its way through the boot floor. And axle tramp. LOADS of axle tramp.
The engines were quiet. I'll give you that. Er....that's about it though.
I had a Spider, based on ancient 60's underpinnings. Complete with live axle. Limited but waaayyy better.
Only until the camshaft wore out due to the oilways being too small / silted up. Dynamically, compared to Alfettas they were woeful. s
t dampers, rubbish suspension travel, wallowy handling, the rear axle alterrnately twisting itself in knots and trying to smash its way through the boot floor. And axle tramp. LOADS of axle tramp. The engines were quiet. I'll give you that. Er....that's about it though.
I had a Spider, based on ancient 60's underpinnings. Complete with live axle. Limited but waaayyy better.
Nowadays there'd be lawyers crawling all over a design flaw like this, but back then it was "Oh they all do that, Sir."
Kim
kimducati said:
AC43 said:
Mark 3's and 4's both looked a lot slicker and had much more showroom appeal. But drive them with any enthusiasm and you'd soon be on the ragged edge.
Dynamically, compared to Alfettas they were woeful. st dampers, rubbish suspension travel, wallowy handling, the rear axle alterrnately twisting itself in knots and trying to smash its way through the boot floor. And axle tramp. LOADS of axle tramp.
The engines were quiet. I'll give you that. Er....that's about it though.
I had a Spider, based on ancient 60's underpinnings. Complete with live axle. Limited but waaayyy better.
Only until the camshaft wore out due to the oilways being too small / silted up. Dynamically, compared to Alfettas they were woeful. s
t dampers, rubbish suspension travel, wallowy handling, the rear axle alterrnately twisting itself in knots and trying to smash its way through the boot floor. And axle tramp. LOADS of axle tramp. The engines were quiet. I'll give you that. Er....that's about it though.
I had a Spider, based on ancient 60's underpinnings. Complete with live axle. Limited but waaayyy better.
Nowadays there'd be lawyers crawling all over a design flaw like this, but back then it was "Oh they all do that, Sir."
Kim
The Ford Chorus. That and the starter churning on a cold wet morning. In the Marina's favour, they were quick to start.
The Alfetta wasn't a bad handling car but I never thought they were quite as good as the Opel Ascona/Manta/Cavalier. That was possibly the last proper handling saloon GM Europe ever made before all that FWD crap.
The Alfetta wasn't a bad handling car but I never thought they were quite as good as the Opel Ascona/Manta/Cavalier. That was possibly the last proper handling saloon GM Europe ever made before all that FWD crap.
Touring442 said:
The Alfetta wasn't a bad handling car but I never thought they were quite as good as the Opel Ascona/Manta/Cavalier. That was possibly the last proper handling saloon GM Europe ever made before all that FWD crap.
I had a 1978 Alfetta 2000. Renowned for variable quality dampers, a very crunchy second gear and, because the rear discs were inboard and hard to get to, lousy rear brakes and handbrake, due to seizing etc.In fairness, compared to a Cortina, great car and the metal was vastly superior to soluble Alfasuds ( of which I had two) and probably the Cortina too.o
However, I had a Cavalier Mk II 1.6 as a loan car - fwd - and it was much faster and better handling than my Alfetta along a twisty country road and much better than the rwd Mk I my sister owned.
Touring442 said:
The Ford Chorus. That and the starter churning on a cold wet morning. In the Marina's favour, they were quick to start.
The Alfetta wasn't a bad handling car but I never thought they were quite as good as the Opel Ascona/Manta/Cavalier. That was possibly the last proper handling saloon GM Europe ever made before all that FWD crap.
The Mk1 Asconas et al had a Panhard rod to locate the rear end laterally IIRC. Eliminated the disconcerting shimmy you felt with equivalent Fords when the body started moving out of synch with the axle.The Alfetta wasn't a bad handling car but I never thought they were quite as good as the Opel Ascona/Manta/Cavalier. That was possibly the last proper handling saloon GM Europe ever made before all that FWD crap.
Growing up, my father always had Fords, although not really a petrol head, (bar his claim, to have done over the ton on the North Circular, riding a Vincent Black Shadow) feigned an interest in motor sport to please a little DG. In return I had to feign an interest in ornithology. Now to be fair, you can choose a nice sunny day for a spot bird watching, the RAC rally on the other hand, waits for no man. Exchanging a nice hide and the song of the Marsh Warbler, father would take little DG to many a freezing forest, to listen to the music of twin cams and BDA’s.
In the early 70’s we had a Cortina 2000 GT, father was the sales director for a large plastic molding company. Many of the contracts he worked on would be years in the making. One of the largest, was supply most of the plastic injection moldings for BL products a large order to land. However, there was a problem, to use the visitor car park, required the ownership of a BL product, the other car park was a very long walk from the purchasing office.
Therefore, we had to choose a new company car, the choice was a Marina 1.8 TC or a Dolomite 1850. He drove both, I can’t recall his exact words, but the were not complimentary, in the end he decided on the Dolomite, he hated it!. Now if his employers had stumped up he cash for a Dolomite Sprint, I think his view would have been very different.
.
He did manage to make the front page of the local rag (The Clitheroe Advertiser) ”Man 59 Clocked at 97 mph on the Clitheroe Bypass” shortly after he passed away. Roll forward a few years and little DG now has a driving licence, and has bought a Dolly Sprint, I wish I could have told him how good it was!
In the early 70’s we had a Cortina 2000 GT, father was the sales director for a large plastic molding company. Many of the contracts he worked on would be years in the making. One of the largest, was supply most of the plastic injection moldings for BL products a large order to land. However, there was a problem, to use the visitor car park, required the ownership of a BL product, the other car park was a very long walk from the purchasing office.
Therefore, we had to choose a new company car, the choice was a Marina 1.8 TC or a Dolomite 1850. He drove both, I can’t recall his exact words, but the were not complimentary, in the end he decided on the Dolomite, he hated it!. Now if his employers had stumped up he cash for a Dolomite Sprint, I think his view would have been very different.
.
He did manage to make the front page of the local rag (The Clitheroe Advertiser) ”Man 59 Clocked at 97 mph on the Clitheroe Bypass” shortly after he passed away. Roll forward a few years and little DG now has a driving licence, and has bought a Dolly Sprint, I wish I could have told him how good it was!
Sahjahd said:
My TC Marina wasn't the most stable, or rust free car that I have owned, but it was cheap, never let me down, and could outpace my colleague's, BMW 2002 ti, in a straight line.
Did the BMW have a loose plug lead ? The TC Marina was brisk but 60 was in 12 ish , at least 2 seconds slower than the BMW. The Marina was a ghastly car , and the more power it had , the worse it was to drive . The little 1.3 coupeI was far nicer to drive than the noisy, chronically understeering , appalling riding TC
coppice said:
Sahjahd said:
My TC Marina wasn't the most stable, or rust free car that I have owned, but it was cheap, never let me down, and could outpace my colleague's, BMW 2002 ti, in a straight line.
Did the BMW have a loose plug lead ?
My old 1.8TC could just about keep pace with a Mexico......as the Mex with only its 1600 Xflow would be off down the road, while the TC was still feathering its throttle to stop the back axle hopping up and down.......
LuS1fer said:
Touring442 said:
The Alfetta wasn't a bad handling car but I never thought they were quite as good as the Opel Ascona/Manta/Cavalier. That was possibly the last proper handling saloon GM Europe ever made before all that FWD crap.
I had a 1978 Alfetta 2000. Renowned for variable quality dampers, a very crunchy second gear and, because the rear discs were inboard and hard to get to, lousy rear brakes and handbrake, due to seizing etc.In fairness, compared to a Cortina, great car and the metal was vastly superior to soluble Alfasuds ( of which I had two) and probably the Cortina too.o
However, I had a Cavalier Mk II 1.6 as a loan car - fwd - and it was much faster and better handling than my Alfetta along a twisty country road and much better than the rwd Mk I my sister owned.
What those Alfetta-chassis'd cars did brilliantly (dampers notwithstanding) was fast sweepers. The harder you pushed in the loud pedal, the more they dug in. Go into a slower corner, though, on a neutral throttle and they felt underwhelming and understeer-y.
I'd agree on the FWD Cavalier though, or at least the Mk II. I had one as a company car for a while. I was based in London but seconded onto a job in Brum. Every 2nd or 3rd weekend I headed home to Scotland in it. Up the M6/A74 to Moffat than across county up the A701 through the Devil's Beeftub and on up to Edinburgh. It was surprisingly good up that road. None of my mates believed me at the time but it did the job pretty well. Way better than the contemporary Sierra would have done which was still lumbered with Cortina engines and a very half hearted rear suspension set up. The next game changer in that Class was the Mondeo when Ford FINALLY dug deep to produce something genuinely decent.
aeropilot said:
AMGSee55 said:
if you accepted them as 'Uncle Arthur' cars they were fine - the torquey B-Series suited them well in this respect.
They should have at least added the o/d gearbox from the MGB as well as the engine, to cope with the torque, rather than leaving the bog standard weedy gearbox from the 1300 in it, which I think came from the Moggy Minor anyway?I worked for the AA at the time & the patrols hated the Marina van. Not helped by the first ones coming with drum brakes. Which disappeared when towing a reasonable sized car off the motorway. Even the disc versions weren't great.
tr7v8 said:
I worked for the AA at the time & the patrols hated the Marina van.
Ha ha........a good mate of mine back in the early 80's was an AA Patrolman, and had to same view 
My Dad was a Police Dog Handler through the 60's into the early 80's, and the Met Police replaced the old Moggy Minor vans they had for dog patrol vans with the Marina van around 1973/4 and other than having more room, they were universally hated by all.....and they kept them right into the mid 80's when my old man retired. He was so annoyed that they replaced the crappy vans with estate cars a few years after he retired!!!
tr7v8 said:
I worked for the AA at the time & the patrols hated the Marina van. Not helped by the first ones coming with drum brakes. Which disappeared when towing a reasonable sized car off the motorway. Even the disc versions weren't great.
Fear not .... the Maestro vans were on the horizon 
2xChevrons said:
CDP said:
aeropilot said:
2xChevrons said:
Of course the real mind-blower is that there are no major interchangeable parts between the Minor and the Marina, or even the Riley/Wolseley and the Marina. BL went to all the effort and cost of designing and tooling up for a brand new suspension system using 1930s technology when it would have cost virtually nothing extra to use something more modern - it may have saved them something in reduced production costs. I suspect there must have been a sort of tunnel vision, where they initially decided on using the Minor suspension as a cost saving and then, 'death by a thousand cuts' style, by the time they'd tweaked and adapted it with a new ball-type top mount here, a stronger upright screw thread here, a different trunnion angle here, a different damper unit fitting there it had become bespoke.
The BL catastophe in a nutshell.If you think about it, it took barely 10-15 years for the British car and motorcycle industry to go from almost world leading, to laughing stock to almost non-existant.
It brought about an attitude of trying to hack old bits and pieces together as a first response rather than considering the pros and cons.
Then there were the broader issues which affected all British manufacturing which had been amassing for nearly 150 years - repeated underinvestment, a chronic lack of capital, too many players in each sector robbing each other of viable market share, inadequate technical education, outdated and decentralised plant, outdated, inadequate or non-existant testing and development facilities, the squandering of the vast amount of Marshall Aid we received post-war, myopic and under-educated management, under-skilled workers, a history of mutually antagonistic labour relations, an over-dependence on closed and captive markets which were disappearing and a cultural attitude that encourages swashbuckling, enterprising, brave get-rich-quick schemes rather than steady, cautious long-term nurturing and growth.
I once had a short drive in new Marina; it was awful. I was also recently offered a trip (my first time in a Minor), as a passenger, in a recently newly, and very expensively, restored Minor. It was unbelieveably noisy and I wondered what was wrong with it; nothing, just general wind noise around the door frame at 35 - 45mph. What's the appeal?
(I think the new term is that I recently 'passengered' in a Minor)
A Minor was luxury compared to a Mini. I had a 1979 Mini 1000 and drove it from West Wales to Cardiff.
I don't think my hearing came back for a few days.
In contrast, my first car, an Austin A40 Farina was reasonable and I covered 30000 miles in 2 years. Rust aside, the only issues I had on that, my first car, was a bad earth on the fuel pump and leaking slave cylinders on the drum brakes.
I also did Cardiff to Chester in a Mk I Cortina 1200 and that was fine too.
I don't think my hearing came back for a few days.
In contrast, my first car, an Austin A40 Farina was reasonable and I covered 30000 miles in 2 years. Rust aside, the only issues I had on that, my first car, was a bad earth on the fuel pump and leaking slave cylinders on the drum brakes.
I also did Cardiff to Chester in a Mk I Cortina 1200 and that was fine too.
LuS1fer said:
A Minor was luxury compared to a Mini. I had a 1979 Mini 1000 and drove it from West Wales to Cardiff.
I don't think my hearing came back for a few days.
In contrast, my first car, an Austin A40 Farina was reasonable and I covered 30000 miles in 2 years. Rust aside, the only issues I had on that, my first car, was a bad earth on the fuel pump and leaking slave cylinders on the drum brakes.
I also did Cardiff to Chester in a Mk I Cortina 1200 and that was fine too.
Both of my Mini's spent 99% of their time in Edinburgh with the odd long distance trip (ie 20 miles) to Fife.I don't think my hearing came back for a few days.
In contrast, my first car, an Austin A40 Farina was reasonable and I covered 30000 miles in 2 years. Rust aside, the only issues I had on that, my first car, was a bad earth on the fuel pump and leaking slave cylinders on the drum brakes.
I also did Cardiff to Chester in a Mk I Cortina 1200 and that was fine too.
One of them was nicked and ended up in Glasgow of all places. The worst thing was is that I was looking forward to an insurance payout when the cops called me.
But no, they'd found it in one piece. And I had to go and get it and drive it all the way back. 55 miles of purgatory.
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