Morris Marina - was it really that bad?
Discussion
2xChevrons said:
P5BNij said:
Did the BMC VDPs receive the same treatment as the Jag XJ / Daimler VDPs, ie: were they sent off to VDP in London for extra coats of paint and fitment of the posh bits, or did it all happen inhouse at Longbridge?
They were 'proper' VdP products - the bodyshell and the built-up subframes were shipped from Longbridge to VdP at Kingsbury, the body was put on the line and it was painted, trimmed and finished before the subframes were installed and the final mechanical bits hooked up. The paint was applied by hand, the coach lines were put on by hand, the pompous front grille was assembled and polished by hand, the Connolly leather seats were upholstered by hand, the wood-veneer dashboard was built and fitted by hand, as were the picnic tables and door cappings. The BMC VdPs were, in bodywork terms, something rather special and certainly a long way from the Ghia-badged Fords which were just the name of a coachbuilder on a Dagenham-built car that was just the poshest trim level. Which is what VdP became for Austin-Rover after Kingsbury was shut in 1979, when the Metro/Maestro/Montego VdPs were just built on the line at Longbridge. As were the VdP Rover SD1s.
The Allegro-based VdP 1.5 and 1.7 were built slightly differently - they were assembled at Longbridge as driveable but 'naked' bare shells painted in black undercoat and with the fascia and major controls already fitted (I belive the fascia was crafted at Kingsbury and sent up to Longbridge for fitting), then driven to Kingsbury where they were painted, trimmed and finished. This was the same for the Jaguar/Daimler models - the way to spot a genuine XJ12/Daimler Double Six VdP is that it has black inner wings in the boot and engine bay.
All this talk of the Allegro Vandom plas.
In 1975, my Grandad retired, and pxd a fully functioning low mileage Wolsey 3 litre for a retirement present to himself.
A career in Horticulture, and Park management, didn't give him an insight into buying a car, and when the power steering on the Wolsey started leaking, he was persuaded by the dealer that it was time for something more modern and reliable.
My own memories as a 9 year old of the Wolsey are vague, but i do remember my gran polishing it every week in the garage. I also recall, they hardly ever used it. If they could walk or get the bus, then the car would stay in the garage.
Anyway he obviously ended up with a 1500 Allegro Vandom Plas. His private reg transferred, picknick tables in the back, green leather seats. In creamy beige. When he died some 25 years later it had done 36k and my uncle scrapped it. Because t
t.
My memories of travelling in it as a 13 year old was that my head touched the roof in the back, and my Grandad should have bought an auto, because he only ever used 3rd. Ever.
In my 20s I went to visit him and he took me to the pub in the next village. I was very scared. He actually was the worst driver ever.
According to my other uncle, the twin carb 1500 was actually quite a quick car for its time, but then he actually bought a city rover in his retirement so you have to question his credentials.
My father had owned one BLMC product a 1959 mini in 1959 and since has owned or choose as company cars the cortina, serrira, mundano, and focus. I think 3 of each. Says "Issigonis was a fraud" so drives Ford.
In 1975, my Grandad retired, and pxd a fully functioning low mileage Wolsey 3 litre for a retirement present to himself.
A career in Horticulture, and Park management, didn't give him an insight into buying a car, and when the power steering on the Wolsey started leaking, he was persuaded by the dealer that it was time for something more modern and reliable.
My own memories as a 9 year old of the Wolsey are vague, but i do remember my gran polishing it every week in the garage. I also recall, they hardly ever used it. If they could walk or get the bus, then the car would stay in the garage.
Anyway he obviously ended up with a 1500 Allegro Vandom Plas. His private reg transferred, picknick tables in the back, green leather seats. In creamy beige. When he died some 25 years later it had done 36k and my uncle scrapped it. Because t
t. My memories of travelling in it as a 13 year old was that my head touched the roof in the back, and my Grandad should have bought an auto, because he only ever used 3rd. Ever.
In my 20s I went to visit him and he took me to the pub in the next village. I was very scared. He actually was the worst driver ever.
According to my other uncle, the twin carb 1500 was actually quite a quick car for its time, but then he actually bought a city rover in his retirement so you have to question his credentials.
My father had owned one BLMC product a 1959 mini in 1959 and since has owned or choose as company cars the cortina, serrira, mundano, and focus. I think 3 of each. Says "Issigonis was a fraud" so drives Ford.
Sticks. said:
LuS1fer said:
My own view of both Wolseley and Vanden Plas is that they failed because nobody could say or spell them...
A Woolly Femdom-Flask was a missed marketing opportunity
Maybe they should have followed Ford and used porno mags as their inspiration. A Woolly Femdom-Flask was a missed marketing opportunity
a8hex said:
coppice said:
Back then , my first daily driver was a Riley1300- which sort of epitomised the Hyacinth Bucket mindset of BL planners . It was an Austin 1300 at heart , but with an upwardly mobile grille, a Tudorbethan dash and a detuned Cooper S engine. So many mixed messages - a whole thesis worth.
My Aunt had a VDP one, so lovely fold down tables in the back to eat your dinner from.It was quite nippy I believe having the same under pinning’s as the Austin 1300 GT . I can even remember the reg CYT220H
MXRod said:
I had a Riley 1300 from new , I seem to remember it was sold cheap as the Riley brand was being dropped , remember the Riley Elf ? It was disputed by some when I said it had a Cooper S engine , but It definitely had a 9 stud head , unique to the Cooper .
Predictably, BMC managed to really cock up the introduction of the 1275cc A-Series engine, introducing the 1300 MG, Riley, Wolseley and VP models several months before they'd actually started production of the 'regular' 1275cc engine to go in them.So for a few months Cooper-spec ('12G') engines were used, distinguished by 9-stud heads, forged rockers, EN40 crankshaft with smaller big end bearing journals and valve chest plates in the block.
In November 1967 BMC finally caught up with itself and introduced the '12H' 1275cc engine, with solid block walls (no tappet chest covers), EN16 crankshaft and a 'large valve 11-stud head.
But in the crossover period there was a real unholy mish-mash of engines being put out - some cars had the EN40 crank with the smaller big ends sat in the solid-wall block under the 11-stud head. Others had the EN16 crank under the 9-stud head, and there are similar inconsistencies with finding blocks with and without tappet chest plates with EN16 and EN40 cranks and 9- and 11-stud heads.
Just utter chaos, like when (at the same time period) they had to begin making the MkII Mini before the design office had actually finalised the designs of the new rear lamps and front grille, let alone before the parts were actually available! So cars were coming out of Longbridge and heading straight to storage at disused airfields around the Midlands until they could be united with their lamps and grilles at a later date.
Had a Marina 1.8 as a stop gap car (about 5 months, then sold) in the late 70s, but then had a lot of different cars for short periods. Usually when main car(s) was/were up on ramps, stripped, rebuilding whatever. Bagged at an auction, cheap.
Was it any good? Well, it was like so much back then. Loads of 'em about. For me it got me to work for a short while, then flogged for more in same auction.
Motor mag had a free guide to Tuned Cars in a March 73 issue.
Still have it among my piles and piles (ditto) of car mags in the garage. Here you are. The Marina was among their lists!
Was it any good? Well, it was like so much back then. Loads of 'em about. For me it got me to work for a short while, then flogged for more in same auction.
Motor mag had a free guide to Tuned Cars in a March 73 issue.
Still have it among my piles and piles (ditto) of car mags in the garage. Here you are. The Marina was among their lists!
dandarez said:
Had a Marina 1.8 as a stop gap car (about 5 months, then sold) in the late 70s, but then had a lot of different cars for short periods. Usually when main car(s) was/were up on ramps, stripped, rebuilding whatever. Bagged at an auction, cheap.
Was it any good? Well, it was like so much back then. Loads of 'em about. For me it got me to work for a short while, then flogged for more in same auction.
Motor mag had a free guide to Tuned Cars in a March 73 issue.
Still have it among my piles and piles (ditto) of car mags in the garage. Here you are. The Marina was among their lists!
Interesting that this is yet another source that says what a significant improvement telescopic dampers and some revised spring rates provided for the Marina's road manners. Those that have driven the few surviving Marinas with the BL Special Tuning kit which swaps the lever arm dampers at the front for telescopics and fits mounting brackets in the rear wheel arches so the rear dampers sit vertically rather than angled into floorpan above the differential say that it makes a huge improvement to the car's ride and handling. BL would belatedly put telescopic dampers on the front of the last Itals. Was it any good? Well, it was like so much back then. Loads of 'em about. For me it got me to work for a short while, then flogged for more in same auction.
Motor mag had a free guide to Tuned Cars in a March 73 issue.
Still have it among my piles and piles (ditto) of car mags in the garage. Here you are. The Marina was among their lists!
Sticks. said:
AC43 said:
To be fair you could buy a Mini Mayfair back in the day. And, more recently, a MINI Park Lane.
I shall bow to your superior knowledge 
Sticks. said:
AC43 said:
To be fair you could buy a Mini Mayfair back in the day. And, more recently, a MINI Park Lane.
I shall bow to your superior knowledge AC43 said:
a8hex said:
coppice said:
Back then , my first daily driver was a Riley1300- which sort of epitomised the Hyacinth Bucket mindset of BL planners . It was an Austin 1300 at heart , but with an upwardly mobile grille, a Tudorbethan dash and a detuned Cooper S engine. So many mixed messages - a whole thesis worth.
My Aunt had a VDP one, so lovely fold down tables in the back to eat your dinner from.
2xChevrons said:
Predictably, BMC managed to really cock up the introduction of the 1275cc A-Series engine, introducing the 1300 MG, Riley, Wolseley and VP models several months before they'd actually started production of the 'regular' 1275cc engine to go in them.
So for a few months Cooper-spec ('12G') engines were used, distinguished by 9-stud heads, forged rockers, EN40 crankshaft with smaller big end bearing journals and valve chest plates in the block.
In November 1967 BMC finally caught up with itself and introduced the '12H' 1275cc engine, with solid block walls (no tappet chest covers), EN16 crankshaft and a 'large valve 11-stud head.
But in the crossover period there was a real unholy mish-mash of engines being put out - some cars had the EN40 crank with the smaller big ends sat in the solid-wall block under the 11-stud head. Others had the EN16 crank under the 9-stud head, and there are similar inconsistencies with finding blocks with and without tappet chest plates with EN16 and EN40 cranks and 9- and 11-stud heads.
Just utter chaos, like when (at the same time period) they had to begin making the MkII Mini before the design office had actually finalised the designs of the new rear lamps and front grille, let alone before the parts were actually available! So cars were coming out of Longbridge and heading straight to storage at disused airfields around the Midlands until they could be united with their lamps and grilles at a later date.
Sort of. The 1275 option in the 'better' 1100's arrived in mid '65 with a detuned S engine with a single SU carb and a Midget cylinder head and 8.8 compression to give 58 bhp. These were/are very rare and were probably built to use up some expensive engine parts.So for a few months Cooper-spec ('12G') engines were used, distinguished by 9-stud heads, forged rockers, EN40 crankshaft with smaller big end bearing journals and valve chest plates in the block.
In November 1967 BMC finally caught up with itself and introduced the '12H' 1275cc engine, with solid block walls (no tappet chest covers), EN16 crankshaft and a 'large valve 11-stud head.
But in the crossover period there was a real unholy mish-mash of engines being put out - some cars had the EN40 crank with the smaller big ends sat in the solid-wall block under the 11-stud head. Others had the EN16 crank under the 9-stud head, and there are similar inconsistencies with finding blocks with and without tappet chest plates with EN16 and EN40 cranks and 9- and 11-stud heads.
Just utter chaos, like when (at the same time period) they had to begin making the MkII Mini before the design office had actually finalised the designs of the new rear lamps and front grille, let alone before the parts were actually available! So cars were coming out of Longbridge and heading straight to storage at disused airfields around the Midlands until they could be united with their lamps and grilles at a later date.
Only Glass's Guide listed these cars and BMC didn't officially launch the 1275 option until the following year. From autumn 1966 it used a transverse version of the solid wall Midget 1275 block, an EN16 crank (maybe the EN16T tuftrided crank) with Midget rods, cast pistons, 8.8 compression and pressed steel rockers and 9 head studs in the smaller valve Midget head. When the 1300 proper arrived in late 1967 it had that engine but with its own con rods with the heavy balance weights.
The early MG1300 and Riley Kestrel used the same single carburettor unit as the basic cars but the Mark II MG1300 (now two door only) and Riley 1300 (formerly the Kestrel) used the 70 bhp twin carb unit with the 11 stud head, 9.75 compression, EN16T crank, tubular manifold and close ratio gearbox. This unit went into the 1300GT. Meanwhile, the Wolseley 1300 and VdP used a 65 bhp twin carb unit. This was nothing more than the standard 1300 engine with a pair of SU carbs - 9 stud head, standard gearbox and 9:1 compression.
I chopped up a rotten D plate VdP 1100 '1275' (with the stylised 1275 boot badge) 30+ years ago and there were no S bits in the engine. The reg was DOP420D, a Brum registration. This was the 12G engine.
Touring442 said:
Sort of. The 1275 option in the 'better' 1100's arrived in mid '65 with a detuned S engine with a single SU carb and a Midget cylinder head and 8.8 compression to give 58 bhp. These were/are very rare and were probably built to use up some expensive engine parts.
Only Glass's Guide listed these cars and BMC didn't officially launch the 1275 option until the following year. From autumn 1966 it used a transverse version of the solid wall Midget 1275 block, an EN16 crank (maybe the EN16T tuftrided crank) with Midget rods, cast pistons, 8.8 compression and pressed steel rockers and 9 head studs in the smaller valve Midget head. When the 1300 proper arrived in late 1967 it had that engine but with its own con rods with the heavy balance weights.
The early MG1300 and Riley Kestrel used the same single carburettor unit as the basic cars but the Mark II MG1300 (now two door only) and Riley 1300 (formerly the Kestrel) used the 70 bhp twin carb unit with the 11 stud head, 9.75 compression, EN16T crank, tubular manifold and close ratio gearbox. This unit went into the 1300GT. Meanwhile, the Wolseley 1300 and VdP used a 65 bhp twin carb unit. This was nothing more than the standard 1300 engine with a pair of SU carbs - 9 stud head, standard gearbox and 9:1 compression.
I chopped up a rotten D plate VdP 1100 '1275' (with the stylised 1275 boot badge) 30+ years ago and there were no S bits in the engine. The reg was DOP420D, a Brum registration. This was the 12G engine.
I may have got the head configuration mixed up ,but my Kestral definitely had twin SUs ,when I bought it I was told it was a "run out " model ,I seem to remember paying around £750 for it ,ah those were the days Only Glass's Guide listed these cars and BMC didn't officially launch the 1275 option until the following year. From autumn 1966 it used a transverse version of the solid wall Midget 1275 block, an EN16 crank (maybe the EN16T tuftrided crank) with Midget rods, cast pistons, 8.8 compression and pressed steel rockers and 9 head studs in the smaller valve Midget head. When the 1300 proper arrived in late 1967 it had that engine but with its own con rods with the heavy balance weights.
The early MG1300 and Riley Kestrel used the same single carburettor unit as the basic cars but the Mark II MG1300 (now two door only) and Riley 1300 (formerly the Kestrel) used the 70 bhp twin carb unit with the 11 stud head, 9.75 compression, EN16T crank, tubular manifold and close ratio gearbox. This unit went into the 1300GT. Meanwhile, the Wolseley 1300 and VdP used a 65 bhp twin carb unit. This was nothing more than the standard 1300 engine with a pair of SU carbs - 9 stud head, standard gearbox and 9:1 compression.
I chopped up a rotten D plate VdP 1100 '1275' (with the stylised 1275 boot badge) 30+ years ago and there were no S bits in the engine. The reg was DOP420D, a Brum registration. This was the 12G engine.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
In terms of BHP, what was the difference between the twin SU 1275cc engine in say an Austin 1300GT, and the 1275cc twin SU engine in a Cooper S?
And what went into the Mini 1275GT?
According to my 1970 Observers Book of Cars - And what went into the Mini 1275GT?
Cooper S Mk II was 76bhp
Mini 1275GT was 59bhp (single carb)
1300GT/MG 1300 Mk II - 70bhp
Austin Healey/MG Midget 65bhp
For contrast, an Escort 1300GT with a single Weber -75bhp
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