RE: US Elise Confirmed
Discussion
Well for one, IF ANY NEW Lotus ever comes with an auto gearbox OR cup holders.... Count me out!! AND it is about time the people on the other side of the pond recognize the largest automobile market in the world and start building world cars! But maybe wasting time, manpower, and frivolous spending on projects like the Extreme or 340R(—come on people it rains most of the year over there, so what practicality does an open car have in the UK—BESIDES limited production) is what Planet Hethel can do best. Money would have been better spent developing a WORLD car! WORLD CAR + MORE MARKETS= MORE SALES
Yes, but mass market considerations lead to cars like honda accords and ford mondeos.
Lotus caters to a niche market that loves special cars and is willing to put up with compromises. I daresay if the 340R was available here in the US, it would sell. The typical buyer wouldn't be the suburban housewife who needs to tote her kids to school.
Lotus caters to a niche market that loves special cars and is willing to put up with compromises. I daresay if the 340R was available here in the US, it would sell. The typical buyer wouldn't be the suburban housewife who needs to tote her kids to school.
It seems that Lotus is going to use the old Esprit introduction strategy: introduce a great car without the appropriate horse power. I need to decide to buy from the following line-up:
make--model---price----HP---0 to 60
BMW---Z3-----38,000--225--5.9
Honda-S2000--33,000--240--5.8
Audi---TT225--39,000--225--6.7
Lotus--1995---39,000--120--5.8
Note that the Porsche Boxter is not listed; it is simply much more expensive.
The Elise competitors are all cars that some day will stand next to me at the traffic light. Sure, I will outrun them on any mountain road. I just happen to live in a flat area.... I just do not like to spent more money than the guy in the S2000 and have equal performance numbers. Anyone who wants to convince me that exclusivity also counts should buy a Yugo. VERY rare in the USA!
I would really like to get a competitive Elise in 2003. It took the Esprit V8 more than 20 years to arrive in the USA. I sincerely hope that it will take the Elise less time to get to the 200 HP level.
Any speculation on which engine will be used? (so I can order a performance upgrade at the same time the Elise is delivered....)
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:01
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:02
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:03
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:03
make--model---price----HP---0 to 60
BMW---Z3-----38,000--225--5.9
Honda-S2000--33,000--240--5.8
Audi---TT225--39,000--225--6.7
Lotus--1995---39,000--120--5.8
Note that the Porsche Boxter is not listed; it is simply much more expensive.
The Elise competitors are all cars that some day will stand next to me at the traffic light. Sure, I will outrun them on any mountain road. I just happen to live in a flat area.... I just do not like to spent more money than the guy in the S2000 and have equal performance numbers. Anyone who wants to convince me that exclusivity also counts should buy a Yugo. VERY rare in the USA!
I would really like to get a competitive Elise in 2003. It took the Esprit V8 more than 20 years to arrive in the USA. I sincerely hope that it will take the Elise less time to get to the 200 HP level.
Any speculation on which engine will be used? (so I can order a performance upgrade at the same time the Elise is delivered....)
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:01
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:02
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:03
Edited by paulnederland on Saturday 26th January 06:03
By this criteria, it's obvious you should buy the Honda. I suggest you look at torque figures too. They will probably confirm that the Honda is the price and performance leader. And it's probably the best engineered car out there, too, in terms of finish quality, reliability and durability.
Well, the TT225 is still selling against the S2000 even though it is more expensive and has less performance. Must be the German engineering that appeals to the public. We all know that Lotus will not compete on build quality. I believe Lotus does not need to compete on price (within an acceptable range). However, the Honda-powered Elise at $ 55,000 is clearly outside of the acceptable range. The Elise needs to compete on performance: road holding and acceleration (top speed is not marketable in the USA). We know that it has no equal in road holding. I would pay 20% more if the car did 0-60 in 5.4 sec (so it will outrun an M3 and Boxter S). I would rather give that money to Lotus then to an after market tuner.
Don't worry about the performance figures. According to the Lotus Representative in the LA Auto show a couple of weeks ago, she stated that the engine they chose (which was in the Elise I was looking at) will push 0-60 in under 5 seconds.
She wouldn't confirm the hp rating though. But if it's going to hit 0-60 in under 5 seconds, we're talking more around 190+ hp. I can live with that... :P
Either way, I already put my $3000 deposit. Only thing that would make me not follow through with getting one, would be if the engine was pushing under 150 hp.
She wouldn't confirm the hp rating though. But if it's going to hit 0-60 in under 5 seconds, we're talking more around 190+ hp. I can live with that... :P
Either way, I already put my $3000 deposit. Only thing that would make me not follow through with getting one, would be if the engine was pushing under 150 hp.
Wonderful! This car will show us Americans what a modern day sports is. Nothing like it here now. Lotus will do very well IF the US Elise is executed properly. It may not be that easy. And again like others have said, Lotus, why softer suspenion? Leather seats should not be mandatory. I'm thinking lightweight racing seats, plenty of exposed metal and no soundproofing.
I really think Lotus will succeed. Esprit? I don't recal this oldster being very lightweight or competitive with the porkers performance wise. Time to go!
TVR pull out your note book and pencil!
I really think Lotus will succeed. Esprit? I don't recal this oldster being very lightweight or competitive with the porkers performance wise. Time to go!
TVR pull out your note book and pencil!
>I would pay 20% more if the car did 0-60 in 5.4 sec (so it will outrun an M3 and Boxter S
If you want to outrun an M3 (E46) you're going to have to beat around 4.8 sec, not 5.4.
However, when I lived in the UK, all the pub talk seemed to focus on 0-60, top speed, and horsepower. But here in the US it seems to focus more on standing start quarter miles, and torque (and cupholders).
The most important (and oft-neglected) statistic here is the power to weight ratio - obviously its featherweight status is one of its great assets (although it remains to be seen how much heavier it will be with air conditioning, side impact protection beams, 24 cupholders and that thing that goes 'ding ding ding' when the doors are opened).
If you want to outrun an M3 (E46) you're going to have to beat around 4.8 sec, not 5.4.
However, when I lived in the UK, all the pub talk seemed to focus on 0-60, top speed, and horsepower. But here in the US it seems to focus more on standing start quarter miles, and torque (and cupholders).
The most important (and oft-neglected) statistic here is the power to weight ratio - obviously its featherweight status is one of its great assets (although it remains to be seen how much heavier it will be with air conditioning, side impact protection beams, 24 cupholders and that thing that goes 'ding ding ding' when the doors are opened).
BMW.com says 5.4 seconds for the M3 convertible. The M roadster is faster (5.0 sec).
washingtonlee: I hope you are right about the sub 5 seconds. I would put my deposit down immediately for for a (legal) sub-5 sec Elise at the quoted $ 39,500.-
GarySh: the power-to-weight ratio shows up in handling and in acceleration. That is why the 0-60 is an important parameter. Unfortunately, side impact bars add weight to the car, but they will also provide me a way to live and buy a second Elise after a crash. California is blessed with lots of sun and traffic jams. An AC is the only way to survive both. Cupholders add no weight...
Edited by paulnederland on Sunday 27th January 22:08
washingtonlee: I hope you are right about the sub 5 seconds. I would put my deposit down immediately for for a (legal) sub-5 sec Elise at the quoted $ 39,500.-
GarySh: the power-to-weight ratio shows up in handling and in acceleration. That is why the 0-60 is an important parameter. Unfortunately, side impact bars add weight to the car, but they will also provide me a way to live and buy a second Elise after a crash. California is blessed with lots of sun and traffic jams. An AC is the only way to survive both. Cupholders add no weight...
Edited by paulnederland on Sunday 27th January 22:08
Leather seats don't really add any weight to the car. I'm hoping it's not a standard (because I hate leather seats). The one in the LA Auto Show didn't have them, so I'm hoping the shipped product is the same. As for adding weight to the car (for side impact beams, A/C, Airbags, etc.) I hear that it should take far less than 150 lbs? Granted that's alot, but figure that's the person sitting beside you. So just drive alone from now on...heh :P
Either way, the styling kicks butt, and the weight and the handling will still be unparalleled.
All I'm praying for is a kick butt engine, which hopefully will be friendly towards mods? The fact that they haven't signed the deal from whom they've selected from makes me wonder. I've also heard rumors that it's NOT the Type-R engine that Sun International uses. Such a pitty. But hey...most of all this are rumors. I'm just going to sit here and hope for the best. We'll see as the months go by. Only 20 more.....
Either way, the styling kicks butt, and the weight and the handling will still be unparalleled.
All I'm praying for is a kick butt engine, which hopefully will be friendly towards mods? The fact that they haven't signed the deal from whom they've selected from makes me wonder. I've also heard rumors that it's NOT the Type-R engine that Sun International uses. Such a pitty. But hey...most of all this are rumors. I'm just going to sit here and hope for the best. We'll see as the months go by. Only 20 more.....
Actually, I don't want leather seats because they are slippery. As far as weight goes, 150 lbs sounds like a lot - nearly 10% of the current weight. That's a lot. I really would like the weight to stay down and the power to go up.
Do you have a delivery date set? I thought the first delivery would be in March of 2003 - if all goes as planned.
If so, was the purchase price agreed on and was it close to the $38500 mentioned here on pistonheads? Inquiring minds want to know...
Do you have a delivery date set? I thought the first delivery would be in March of 2003 - if all goes as planned.
If so, was the purchase price agreed on and was it close to the $38500 mentioned here on pistonheads? Inquiring minds want to know...
Yeah....that is a lot of weight, but hey, if it's the law, it's the law. I don't know how people drive in the UK, but here in LA, I'll take those side impact beams, thank you. And the Airbags as well. Driving is fun (the main reason I'm getting this car), but not at the expense of safety. And there's nothing safe about driving in LA.
As for when it's coming out, I was told by the Dealer, September 2003. He said the "projected" MSRP is $38,500. No dealer is going to finalize a price yet, but with my deposit, I had them put in writing that I would pay MSRP. I expect a lot of dealers making huge mark ups for this car. And from what the dealer told me, he expects the only options to be the hard top (maybe included?) and A/C. Nothing is concrete for what I'm guessing, another year? So I'm not going to put too much weight on the things I've read and heard. (You might do the same for what I'VE written
)
Just hope for the best, and we'll see in 20 months.
Besides, there's more things to worry about, such as WHAT COLOR? I sooooo can't decide. I think I've narrowed it down to the two greys and two blues though. Cobalt Blue is looking mighty nice right now...
As for when it's coming out, I was told by the Dealer, September 2003. He said the "projected" MSRP is $38,500. No dealer is going to finalize a price yet, but with my deposit, I had them put in writing that I would pay MSRP. I expect a lot of dealers making huge mark ups for this car. And from what the dealer told me, he expects the only options to be the hard top (maybe included?) and A/C. Nothing is concrete for what I'm guessing, another year? So I'm not going to put too much weight on the things I've read and heard. (You might do the same for what I'VE written
) Just hope for the best, and we'll see in 20 months.
Besides, there's more things to worry about, such as WHAT COLOR? I sooooo can't decide. I think I've narrowed it down to the two greys and two blues though. Cobalt Blue is looking mighty nice right now...
Talking to my friends in Chicago and members of the press in Detroit we all agree that at $38,500 the car is way too expensive compared to it's UK price ,even with all their taxes. It is almost in "vette" territory!It also sounds as if the US version will be fat and flabby which rather defeats the integrity of it's design. You would think Lotus would learn from before. The Elan was overpriced and they were burned for it. Perhaps GM will import the Opel/ Vauxhall version for $25,000 - no a/c, no leather, no soft springs.
The only good news is that if the that little Rover 4-bolt is made to take the oath of alegiance to breath US air, it might be paid for by MG, which would mean the MGF is on the way to us. Or is that just wishful thinking?
Johnny
The only good news is that if the that little Rover 4-bolt is made to take the oath of alegiance to breath US air, it might be paid for by MG, which would mean the MGF is on the way to us. Or is that just wishful thinking?
Johnny
1700 lbs. is fat and flubby??
That sure doesn't sound right. As for the price, it's something that I'm willing to pay. Isn't that only 5k more than the UK price? Not to mention that they're putting a whole different engine in, and ship it here. (shipping's already a grand)
As for saying that the price is in the 'vette range....Come on...seriously....a Vette? Between the two, I'd totally prefer an Elise. If you're going to get a car for it's acceleration, by all means, get something else, this car is probably not for you. If you want styling, uniqueness, and something that handles like a dream (or so I've heard) then this is what you want.
That sure doesn't sound right. As for the price, it's something that I'm willing to pay. Isn't that only 5k more than the UK price? Not to mention that they're putting a whole different engine in, and ship it here. (shipping's already a grand)
As for saying that the price is in the 'vette range....Come on...seriously....a Vette? Between the two, I'd totally prefer an Elise. If you're going to get a car for it's acceleration, by all means, get something else, this car is probably not for you. If you want styling, uniqueness, and something that handles like a dream (or so I've heard) then this is what you want.
It is not the weight you need to look at but how much the "power to weight" ratio changes between the UK and US editions. As somebody made the point earlier, 150 lbs. in comfort will add nearly 10% to the curbweight which will significantly impact on the performance in a way that would not trouble a powerful car. Take out the super light 4 bolt Rover K series for some more powerful but heavier GM plant and you will screw the Front/ Rear weight distribution. Add softer springs {as I understand the case to be} and the only thing you will do with the handling is talk about it...rather than experience it. So what ever your heart is pumping for you may want to apply some rational with a very critical eye before you buy. Price? Well you are looking at the "gross" price including Her Majesty taking a fair old bit of the folded stuff from your back pocket. $38,500 is the net price in the US where taxes are microscopic in comparison. The hard facts are that they could sell this car for the same price here as in the UK inc. shipping. You want proof? BMW are selling the mini at virtually the same price in the US as the UK. So you do the math ...somebody likes your money and it isn't you! Far better to go to Europe, buy a UK spec. with US breathing nostrils and import it. Have a holiday and save yourself money!
Johnny
Johnny
Lets look at one interesting fact here.
Even at $38,500, that doesn't include sales tax. Each individual state has different tax levels, so the price you pay won't be $38,500, but more than that, plus you have to add registration on top of that.
The UK price is the price on the road.
It's still a freaking bargain at any price because there's nothing like it over here........
Even at $38,500, that doesn't include sales tax. Each individual state has different tax levels, so the price you pay won't be $38,500, but more than that, plus you have to add registration on top of that.
The UK price is the price on the road.
It's still a freaking bargain at any price because there's nothing like it over here........
Granted you're paying more for the car here, but I wouldn't compare it to bringing the Mini over. BMW is a far larger company that can absorb profit losses. Lotus can't compete with that. Besides, I'm wagering you'll be hard pressed to find a dealer selling the Mini for MSRP (the waiting list is in the hundreds down here in Southern California). Even the Nissan 350Z having $5k+ markups are already going around.
As for the power to weight ratio changing, I'm all for it....
Let's see...adding 10% to the weight, adding 58% to the power....hrmm...I don't know about you, but I kind of like those numbers.
And as for the weight distribution, it's already 38/62. Do you really think that's an ideal number that makes the car perfect? It's already far from the 50/50 many car companies strive for. Besides, if the weight is coming from a bigger engine in the back, A/C and airbags in the front, and side impact beams in the middle, the weight distribution shouldn't be changed that much.
In the end, I admit that I'm NOT going to buy it if it comes with some dinky 120 hp engine. Not at that price. But if it's in the 190+ hp ballpark that I've been hearing, I'm all for it.
As for the power to weight ratio changing, I'm all for it....
Let's see...adding 10% to the weight, adding 58% to the power....hrmm...I don't know about you, but I kind of like those numbers.
And as for the weight distribution, it's already 38/62. Do you really think that's an ideal number that makes the car perfect? It's already far from the 50/50 many car companies strive for. Besides, if the weight is coming from a bigger engine in the back, A/C and airbags in the front, and side impact beams in the middle, the weight distribution shouldn't be changed that much.
In the end, I admit that I'm NOT going to buy it if it comes with some dinky 120 hp engine. Not at that price. But if it's in the 190+ hp ballpark that I've been hearing, I'm all for it.
120 BHP in DIN rating is actually about 130BHP in SAE rating as used in the US. If the car comes equipped as you indicate I would guesse the added weight to the vehicle will be closer to 20% of the curbweight {thus ruining the agility}. So 190 bhp {US} is not going to make as much difference as you seem to think. Point taken on weight balance. But, adding 170lbs of protoplasm to the drivers' seat has a significant impact on the weight distribution of this car in a way that would not impact on a 3000lb car. So sitting in it probably gives you closer to 45/55. However, with all that extra ancillory equpment up front you will no doubt want power steering? Then the whole original concept will be totally ruined. You will have your posers car and I will be denied the drivers car. More money for less focus ..you can keep it. All the bits you want{inc airbags} work against the active saftey of the car. If you don't get that you so not understand what this car is about. Had you thought about buying a Volvo?
Johnny
Johnny
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