S1 elise ceramic brakes...

[S Works]

What a weapons-grade bell-end.

[TIPPER]

Sam_68 said:

mrdexter said:

...mmc brakes which it appears few have any experience of use of....

I have experience of MMC brakes. My first S1 had them, my second didn't. If (or more likely when) I decide to buy another S1, MMC brakes will be one of the features I'll be trying to hunt down.

Yes, if you had been doing steady high speeds on a streaming wet motorway without touching the brakes, you needed to dab them before they became effective. Many performance brake pads have similar characteristics: it's part of the price you pay for having brakes that remain consistent once they get up to working temperature.

...But if you're driving at sustained high speed on a streaming wet motorway and you've left youself so little room that you need instant full bite from your brakes, then you're driving like a and you deserve to die. Along with the lift-off oversteer if you're completely incompetent at dealing with bends, you can think of it as Lotus' little contribution to human evolution.

Sadly, they failed to get you, but full credit to them for trying...

s
Good post and should serve as good advice for anyone else thinking of buying a proper performance car.
That Lotus made an 'exotic' within reach or aspiration of the average man will mean that there will always be 'revisionist' whingers.
Fact is that with the Elise Lotus built what is probably the best sports car ever - there will always be those that seek to re-write the truth.

My final note on this: Lotus only changed the handling charecteristics of the car. (S1 - S2), because so many S1 cars where bought by people that regarded it as a fashion accessory with no appreciation (let alone understanding!) of the differing dynamics to the cars they'd previously owned . It really does sound like our OP falls into this category ('...the salesman told me....!!!!!!!!!!!').

Any Elise can be made to handle as its owner wishes: basically its one of the most adjustable, bidable, predicatble, amazing cars ever made

[mrdexter]

Sam_68 said:

mrdexter said:

...mmc brakes which it appears few have any experience of use of....

I have experience of MMC brakes. My first S1 had them, my second didn't. If (or more likely when) I decide to buy another S1, MMC brakes will be one of the features I'll be trying to hunt down.

Yes, if you had been doing steady high speeds on a streaming wet motorway without touching the brakes, you needed to dab them before they became effective. Many performance brake pads have similar characteristics: it's part of the price you pay for having brakes that remain consistent once they get up to working temperature.

...But if you're driving at sustained high speed on a streaming wet motorway and you've left youself so little room that you need instant full bite from your brakes, then you're driving like a and you deserve to die. Along with the lift-off oversteer if you're completely incompetent at dealing with bends, you can think of it as Lotus' little contribution to human evolution.

Sadly, they failed to get you, but full credit to them for trying...

Thanks for confirming my point about the failure of mmc brakes,..

now picture a titanium elise in rain on a soaked motorway doing a steady 70 ,in the middle lane coming up gently behind a lorry whilst being overtaken by some one in the outside lane... Some numpty in the inside lane desides i m invisible and pulls directly infront...


AND YOU VE NO BRAKES...nothing untill you ve dabbed them a couple of times...


maybe the intelligent amongst you will realise the danger in this and accept this point....

[TIPPER]

mrdexter said:

Sam_68 said:

mrdexter said:

...mmc brakes which it appears few have any experience of use of....

I have experience of MMC brakes. My first S1 had them, my second didn't. If (or more likely when) I decide to buy another S1, MMC brakes will be one of the features I'll be trying to hunt down.

Yes, if you had been doing steady high speeds on a streaming wet motorway without touching the brakes, you needed to dab them before they became effective. Many performance brake pads have similar characteristics: it's part of the price you pay for having brakes that remain consistent once they get up to working temperature.

...But if you're driving at sustained high speed on a streaming wet motorway and you've left youself so little room that you need instant full bite from your brakes, then you're driving like a and you deserve to die. Along with the lift-off oversteer if you're completely incompetent at dealing with bends, you can think of it as Lotus' little contribution to human evolution.

Sadly, they failed to get you, but full credit to them for trying...

Thanks for confirming my point about the failure of mmc brakes,..

now picture a titanium elise in rain on a soaked motorway doing a steady 70 ,in the middle lane coming up gently behind a lorry whilst being overtaken by some one in the outside lane... Some numpty in the inside lane desides i m invisible and pulls directly infront...


AND YOU VE NO BRAKES...nothing untill you ve dabbed them a couple of times...


maybe the intelligent amongst you will realise the danger in this and accept this point....

What I fail to understand is why its taken you seven years to raise the issue and also why it took an emergency situation on a Mway for you to bcome aware. The wet weather issue was well known even then but you failed to acquaint yourself with it. You don't seem prepared to take any responsibility for your decision to buy a performance car that used some unique (at the time) technologies yet failed to take the trouble to understand them: that would have been the intelligent thing to do.
Your brakes didsn't fail; you're here to tell the tale so they did their job.
You had a scary moment because you failed to anticipate a possible danger. As you suggest your car was not the most visible of colours in murky conditions (are you going to blame your decision to buy a grey car on Lotus too (perhaps they shouldn't have sold the car in that colour?) so you should have been making plenty of allowance for that.
It seems to me that you're seeking to sensationalise a well know feature of the MMC brakes at a time when one of the worlds major car manufacturers (Toyota) has its hands full of litigation issues from the land of litigation. Litigation brought on because a man chose to make a phone call rather than put his car in neutral (he couldn't drive). Crazy.

[mrdexter]

TIPPER said:

mrdexter said:

Sam_68 said:

mrdexter said:

...mmc brakes which it appears few have any experience of use of....

I have experience of MMC brakes. My first S1 had them, my second didn't. If (or more likely when) I decide to buy another S1, MMC brakes will be one of the features I'll be trying to hunt down.

Yes, if you had been doing steady high speeds on a streaming wet motorway without touching the brakes, you needed to dab them before they became effective. Many performance brake pads have similar characteristics: it's part of the price you pay for having brakes that remain consistent once they get up to working temperature.

...But if you're driving at sustained high speed on a streaming wet motorway and you've left youself so little room that you need instant full bite from your brakes, then you're driving like a and you deserve to die. Along with the lift-off oversteer if you're completely incompetent at dealing with bends, you can think of it as Lotus' little contribution to human evolution.

Sadly, they failed to get you, but full credit to them for trying...

Thanks for confirming my point about the failure of mmc brakes,..

now picture a titanium elise in rain on a soaked motorway doing a steady 70 ,in the middle lane coming up gently behind a lorry whilst being overtaken by some one in the outside lane... Some numpty in the inside lane desides i m invisible and pulls directly infront...


AND YOU VE NO BRAKES...nothing untill you ve dabbed them a couple of times...


maybe the intelligent amongst you will realise the danger in this and accept this point....

What I fail to understand is why its taken you seven years to raise the issue and also why it took an emergency situation on a Mway for you to bcome aware. The wet weather issue was well known even then but you failed to acquaint yourself with it. You don't seem prepared to take any responsibility for your decision to buy a performance car that used some unique (at the time) technologies yet failed to take the trouble to understand them: that would have been the intelligent thing to do.
Your brakes didsn't fail; you're here to tell the tale so they did their job.
You had a scary moment because you failed to anticipate a possible danger. As you suggest your car was not the most visible of colours in murky conditions (are you going to blame your decision to buy a grey car on Lotus too (perhaps they shouldn't have sold the car in that colour?) so you should have been making plenty of allowance for that.
It seems to me that you're seeking to sensationalise a well know feature of the MMC brakes at a time when one of the worlds major car manufacturers (Toyota) has its hands full of litigation issues from the land of litigation. Litigation brought on because a man chose to make a phone call rather than put his car in neutral (he couldn't drive). Crazy.

This was not a known fact at the time and any potential newbie to mmc may find themselves in the same situation...

use your loaf, by your own words in the wet you ve no brakes enless you dab them...

A joke to blame my driving rather than the manufacturer !!!

[Gooby]

mrdexter said:

Sam_68 said:

mrdexter said:

...mmc brakes which it appears few have any experience of use of....

I have experience of MMC brakes. My first S1 had them, my second didn't. If (or more likely when) I decide to buy another S1, MMC brakes will be one of the features I'll be trying to hunt down.

Yes, if you had been doing steady high speeds on a streaming wet motorway without touching the brakes, you needed to dab them before they became effective. Many performance brake pads have similar characteristics: it's part of the price you pay for having brakes that remain consistent once they get up to working temperature.

...But if you're driving at sustained high speed on a streaming wet motorway and you've left youself so little room that you need instant full bite from your brakes, then you're driving like a and you deserve to die. Along with the lift-off oversteer if you're completely incompetent at dealing with bends, you can think of it as Lotus' little contribution to human evolution.

Sadly, they failed to get you, but full credit to them for trying...

Thanks for confirming my point about the failure of mmc brakes,..

now picture a titanium elise in rain on a soaked motorway doing a steady 70 ,in the middle lane coming up gently behind a lorry whilst being overtaken by some one in the outside lane... Some numpty in the inside lane desides i m invisible and pulls directly infront...


AND YOU VE NO BRAKES...nothing untill you ve dabbed them a couple of times...


maybe the intelligent amongst you will realise the danger in this and accept this point....

Perhaps the intelligent would think "I have MMC brakes and the road is wet, therefore for safety sake, I will leave a little extra braking room"

It is interesting to note that the police do not use the word accident any more, there is no such thing (legally). If you were foolinsh enough not to leave enough room then you are to blame for the incident.

This brings us perfectly back to the initial point - You are a driving incompetant who is insisting on proving that your lack of driving skill is due to a car.

There is a cure, contact you local branch of the Advanced institute of Motorists then learn how to drive.

Ok, now we are in absolutly no doubt that you are a fool, you keep on pointing it out. Go away, invest in some education then come back.

[GT03ROB]

mrdexter said:

picture a motorway on a wet rainy day ,doing 70 mph and nothing out of the ordinary happening....

until you need to use your brakes as someone pulls out in front of you or there is a que ahead.....

At that point you find they are absolutly none existent and you re in for a bit of a shock.....

why...???

the water on them renders them inopperative and the secret to motorway driving in the wet.... dab them to clear the water as often as you can in order to feel safe !!!

...post ends here & we have a nice informative post for a newbie to MMC brakes...albeit in 2010 there will be few cars with MMC's in the hands of people who know nothing of them.....however Nick the Prick does not stop there he goes on to add......

mrdexter said:

Lotus showed no interest in this design fault , wouldnt even upgrade the useless cluch pipe they originally fitted the car with ...

and i for one would never want to own one again without a change at the top !!!!!

Lotus... you re elise sucks !!!

.....and now we have the man with an agenda, though god knows what or a troll.

ALL performance cars have quirks that will kill you, if you buy a performance car you have an obligation to learn these quickly, before you kill youself or someone else.

[TIPPER]

You've brought the ridicule on yourself. Why wait SEVEN YEARS to sensationally report this?????

[mrdexter]

lighten up !!

interesting its mentioned the police no longer considder an accident an accident and rather someone is to blame....i agreed with that many years but i too was wrong...

At a tee junction (night/no street lighting) looking to the right which had a sweeping bend there was a car approaching and plenty of room to pull out safely...

what stopped me was one of his lights appeared slightly larger than the other...

Had i pulled out, i d have probably killed the MOTORBIKE rider who s light was lined up with the cars right hand headlight and creating the optical illusion of being part of the car despite being way infront of it...

ps . i think you ll find if someone pulls out infront of you on a motorway leaving you little time to brake to avoid them,they might actually be at fault !

dont think i m a bad driver in that i have full no claims on 3 policies ...

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 10:40

[Gooby]

mrdexter said:

ps . i think you ll find if someone pulls out infront of you on a motorway leaving you little time to brake to avoid them,they might actually be at fault !

I thought it was Lotus and thier crappy Elise at fault - now it isnt?

If you are driving and not leaving room for any eventually then you are at fault. The question should be " in this situation what would my contingency be if X, Y OR Z should happen" ypu then adjust speed and distance so you have time and space to fill requirements.

AIM do not consider you to be free of blame even if some one were to go into the back of you, there are techniques to deal with the moronic driving at any direction.

Once again - you cant back pedal now. You blamed the car. like many poor drivers.

[S Works]

mrdexter said:

AND YOU VE NO BRAKES...nothing untill you ve dabbed them a couple of times...

maybe the intelligent amongst you will realise the danger in this and accept this point....

mrdexter said:

use your loaf, by your own words in the wet you ve no brakes enless you dab them...

A joke to blame my driving rather than the manufacturer !!!

No and no. You do have brakes, brakes that function, albeit with reduced ability due to the prevailing weather conditions. On every vehicle that's out there, from a horse and cart to a Formula One car, the driver will find that it's ability to slow down diminishes in the wet.

EVERY Lotus Elise I've had, on various combinations of disc, pad, lines and fluid has had different braking characteristics wet and dry. I took time to learn and adapt to them, just like I have with my current hot hatch and it's lovely Brembo 4 pots, and the 350Z I had before that. When I first bought each car I was careful to learn how it behaved in all sorts of conditions, then applied that to my driving style. What I didn't do was blame the car due to some freak factor that's beyond the car's ability to control or influence.

In your case, the idiocy of another driver (if that's what you're intimating caused your initial need to brake hard). You didn't crash, the brakes didn't fail, you're scaremongering unnecessarily. Please stop. You really are making a complete knob of yourself.

Oh and for heavens sake, do try a little harder with the spelling, grammar and punctuation. This country's going to hell in a hand cart. It doesn't need any more help.

Edited by S Works on Saturday 3rd April 14:11

[Sam_68]

mrdexter said:

Thanks for confirming my point about the failure of mmc brakes...

I didn't. I confirmed that you lacked the necessary competence to be driving a car like the Elise.

HTH

[mrdexter]

you ve all been really helpful ...

i dont mind being called a troll, nor the implication of my ignorace due to my poor spelling and gramma (probably due to the fact i ve lived in several countries and speak several languages,none of which were taught at school which cost a packet in its day)...

enlightened, i now know i will not get the facts from a forum but the best help has been my deciding on a bright colour for the new car so i m seen and safe, rather than the less conspicuous dark colours which suits my nature...

A genuine thanks for all you re input

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 17:14

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 17:16

[zebra]

mrdexter said:

you ve all been really helpful ...

i dont mind being called a troll, nor the implication of my ignorace due to my poor spelling and gramma (probably due to the fact i ve lived in several countries and speak several languages,none of which were taught at school which cost a packet in its day)...

enlightened, i now know i will not get the facts from a forum but the best help has been my deciding on a bright colour for the new car so i m seen and safe, rather than the less conspicuous dark colours which suits my nature...

A genuine thanks for all you re input

I cannot believe you're still posting and now trying to turn negatives into positives. Go away and get a driving course with someone like Andy Walsh as I still get the impression you will be a liability on the road if you think the experienced people on here are not giving you 'facts'. Further more, safety on the road is not just solved by bright colours, it's about knowing your car, being aware, being observant and driving within your ability and driving appropriately to the weather and road conditions.

Zebra

[bordseye]

mrdexter said:

you ve all been really helpful ...

i dont mind being called a troll, nor the implication of my ignorance due to my poor spelling and grammar (probably due to the fact i've lived in several countries and speak several languages,none of which were taught at school which cost a packet in its day)...

enlightened, i now know i will not get the facts from a forum but the best help has been my deciding on a bright colour for the new car so i'm seen and safe, rather than the less conspicuous dark colours which suits my nature...

A genuine thanks for all you re input

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 17:14

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 17:16

It was inevitable that you received the abuse you did in criticising an S1 - many of them are the pride and joy of young owners who can see no fault with them, even down to the K series in the engine bay. But if you were to give Lotus another try and buy a new S2, you would have an altogether better experience. Sure the car wont be fault free but it will be an awful lot nearer

[mrdexter]

i can accept that and i m sure you re right in remembering my test drive in an early s2 before i bought the s1 ....to be honest, i did nt want to put that much money into a car back then as few were available second hand...

And after all , it s the way the elise drove thats pointed me in the direction of the ultima gtr. Nothing can prepare you for the agility , power and braking and its the natural progression for me...

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 19:54

[NJS25]

mrdexter said:

i can accept that and i m sure you re right in remembering my test drive in an early s2 before i bought the s1 ....to be honest, i did nt want to put that much money into a car back then as few were available second hand...

And after all , it s the way the elise drove thats pointed me in the direction of the ultima gtr. Nothing can prepare you for the agility , power and braking and its the natural progression for me...

Edited by mrdexter on Saturday 3rd April 19:54

I thought you said earlier you bought your S1 new, sold in 2003 after four years, I didn't think they had MMC brakes fitted in 1999, also would have been difficult test driving an S2 before you bought the car as they weren't released until very late 2000.



N.

[mrdexter]

mmc were fitted to some R reg cars ...mine had 12750 miles and was as new when i bought it for £12500 ... i test drove an s2 so assuming you re right i must have owned it from 2000 to 2004 or there abouts...

[NJS25]

mrdexter said:

and having run one as a daily for 4 years from 9000 to 45000 miles... emptied much of my wallet as it cost more to run than its initial cost, on repairs alone ....

Lots of conflicting info in your previous posts, driven as a daily from 9000 miles when you bought the car with 12750, very clever. As previously mentioned you cannot expect a manufacturer to deal with an issue on a 4 year old second hand car.

The true issue is beginning to emerge.

You appear to have bought an early car which you deemed to be as new, unfortunately this meant it wasn't sorted and proceeded to cost you alot in niggly repairs. As a result it wasn't the Elise that sucks, but YOUR Elise that was a poor second hand buy (dealer obviously saw you coming "it's got Ceramic brakes, Sir".."ooh wow, has it?").

I suspect you had not properly researched your purchase (MMC v Ceramic, unaware of the early build issues etc.) and was perhaps over enthusiastic with the idea of an Elise rather, as with any second hand car purchase, buying wisely.

As you will notice from all the other threads relating to potential buyers the consistent advice is to buy wisely, drive as many cars as you can, you will soon be able to tell the difference between a good car and a dog.

If you bought a dog and it tainted your experience that's a shame, perhaps you should have joined Pistonheads earlier and asked some of us who know what we're talking about.

Happy Easter to you all, Neil
Off to eat some chocolate!

[Syd knee]

mrdexter said:

mmc were fitted to some R reg cars ...mine had 12750 miles and was as new when i bought it for £12500 ... i test drove an s2 so assuming you re right i must have owned it from 2000 to 2004 or there abouts...

Bullst