Discussion
I just copied and pasted my answer to the same question from a while ago. The thread is called 'Questions on Reliability' I *think* if you want to read the follow ups.
I hope this helps!
Hi,
I agree with everyone here, this has been talked about ad infinitum.
However in defence of the poster, he may not be aware that this is a huge subject on the Tuscan boards, and is correct in the fact that there are simply no 'correct' or even trustable answers. In conclusion, and to answer the original question from other conversations, I will make a short account of everyones findings.
1) The SP6 problems are down to soft cams/finger followers, generally a batch of poor quality parts. These are now replaced and modified with parts of the correct quality.
However, despite this there people who have had two and even three (!) rebuilds, many at their own expense. We hear that this
2) The only cars really affected were the 2000-2001 Tuscans. The new 3.6 engine is fine.
However, we keep hearing 'they were fine from six months ago'. Last year the 2002 cars were pretty much OK, until these got to a reasonable milage... then needed a rebuild. This year we have the first reports of a perfectly run in and cared for 3.6 also needing a rebuild and finger followers. So, if this is the case on a car which was built in July 2003, what on earth was put in the rebuilds at that time!?
3) We hear from TVR that the design for the SP6 has not changed since it went into production. Yet we also hear from TVR that modifications mean that the engine is now improved!? Well you should hope so considering that it is currently being sold...
However if there is a design fault which is now modified to prevent problems, this would mean that people who have not run up huge milages and not abused their car would have their car fixed by TVR for free to repair and modify their car to a workable standard... I wont even go there...
The best information we have about the depth of this problem was collated by JSG who spent a huge amount of time creating reliability charts and figures. This was pulished around a year ago. The finding of the report was that the newer the engine the less they had been rebuilt. However what was also true was that the newer the engine, the less miles it had done. Thus although the findings were useful it did not mean that newer engines could be proved much more reliable. Last month he mentioned in a similar post that unfortunately this was true, and this was found out when the 2001-2002 cars reached reasonable milages. The figure he put on it last month was that 80% of early Tuscans have been rebuilt.
Making a guestimate on costs involved, if there are 2000 early Tuscans, approximately 1600 have been rebuilt. Maybe 70% of these have been out of warranty. This leaves 1120 happy (ahem) customers, each paying approximately £4000 each. This comes to £4.48m.
I accept my figures maybe a bit, or even a way out, but even if I have doubled the estimate through error, this is still a lot of money.
It seems that people are being told reasons why their car needs work in such a way to reduce liability. Maybe this is the reason why the reasons change over time and seem to contradict eachother? As far as I am aware no-one had legally challenged TVR.
Now, you may think as you are reading this that I am typing a load of BS. Thats fine. However there is one thing which could happen which would mean that I would not have had to recount all of the above and maybe give my own opinion. There is something which could tell JSG his figures are wrong. There is one thing which would mean that this seemingly weekly question WOULD be answered concisely by a quick search of the postings.
This is obviously for TVR to admit the problem(s). Admit the figures, and put something in place to put the problems right at their cost.
For those who dont yet know, TVR have not ever officially done this. Will we ever see it? Hmm, this would mean that the millions which have been paid by people for rebuilds would have to be returned with suitable compensation for losing their car (invariably due to usage patterns the summer months when it is needed). This would also mean that TVR owners may trust TVR due to their honesty (I would). However this would most likely backfire in getting new customers. New customers would not completely understand the SP6 saga and would probably not want to buy a car with an engine with an 80% failure rate whether it comes with a 3 year warranty or not!
I hope this makes the matter as clear as it can be. About as clear as mud. If these are the actions or a company you would like to entrust your hard earned money, then it's a free country. Others will too. Just dont do it before you know all the facts. This may include contacting TVR directly for a written explanation of the previous and potential problems. I, for one would love to see it.
By all means buy a Tuscan. I did and I loved driving it. If you buy new, you are covered by a three year warranty, so even *if* it needs a rebuild, at least you wont be paying for it for the first 3 years.
If you buy second hand, it is the risk you take. You may have a car which never needs to be rebuilt ever. A lot of people would say you would be lucky. To buy second hand, pretend that the car costs £5k more and when you buy it put your extra £5k in a savings account. I challenge anyone to add £5k to the cost of a second hand Tuscan and find a better car for your money.
If you never need a rebuild by the time you sell the Tuscan you will have £5k in the bank plus interest. If you need a rebuild, you thank yourself you did it, and the car is still within your total budget.
People who like driving cars such as TVRs are naturally not afraid of risk. Luckily this has proved not hugely problematic for their sales and their chance of being reliable. We are the type of people who are prepared to accept the risk. If not, the Tuscan is the wrong car for you. Boxters are cheap at the moment But to be honest you are far better off with a Griff!
I hope this helps!
Hi,
I agree with everyone here, this has been talked about ad infinitum.
However in defence of the poster, he may not be aware that this is a huge subject on the Tuscan boards, and is correct in the fact that there are simply no 'correct' or even trustable answers. In conclusion, and to answer the original question from other conversations, I will make a short account of everyones findings.
1) The SP6 problems are down to soft cams/finger followers, generally a batch of poor quality parts. These are now replaced and modified with parts of the correct quality.
However, despite this there people who have had two and even three (!) rebuilds, many at their own expense. We hear that this
2) The only cars really affected were the 2000-2001 Tuscans. The new 3.6 engine is fine.
However, we keep hearing 'they were fine from six months ago'. Last year the 2002 cars were pretty much OK, until these got to a reasonable milage... then needed a rebuild. This year we have the first reports of a perfectly run in and cared for 3.6 also needing a rebuild and finger followers. So, if this is the case on a car which was built in July 2003, what on earth was put in the rebuilds at that time!?
3) We hear from TVR that the design for the SP6 has not changed since it went into production. Yet we also hear from TVR that modifications mean that the engine is now improved!? Well you should hope so considering that it is currently being sold...
However if there is a design fault which is now modified to prevent problems, this would mean that people who have not run up huge milages and not abused their car would have their car fixed by TVR for free to repair and modify their car to a workable standard... I wont even go there...
The best information we have about the depth of this problem was collated by JSG who spent a huge amount of time creating reliability charts and figures. This was pulished around a year ago. The finding of the report was that the newer the engine the less they had been rebuilt. However what was also true was that the newer the engine, the less miles it had done. Thus although the findings were useful it did not mean that newer engines could be proved much more reliable. Last month he mentioned in a similar post that unfortunately this was true, and this was found out when the 2001-2002 cars reached reasonable milages. The figure he put on it last month was that 80% of early Tuscans have been rebuilt.
Making a guestimate on costs involved, if there are 2000 early Tuscans, approximately 1600 have been rebuilt. Maybe 70% of these have been out of warranty. This leaves 1120 happy (ahem) customers, each paying approximately £4000 each. This comes to £4.48m.
I accept my figures maybe a bit, or even a way out, but even if I have doubled the estimate through error, this is still a lot of money.
It seems that people are being told reasons why their car needs work in such a way to reduce liability. Maybe this is the reason why the reasons change over time and seem to contradict eachother? As far as I am aware no-one had legally challenged TVR.
Now, you may think as you are reading this that I am typing a load of BS. Thats fine. However there is one thing which could happen which would mean that I would not have had to recount all of the above and maybe give my own opinion. There is something which could tell JSG his figures are wrong. There is one thing which would mean that this seemingly weekly question WOULD be answered concisely by a quick search of the postings.
This is obviously for TVR to admit the problem(s). Admit the figures, and put something in place to put the problems right at their cost.
For those who dont yet know, TVR have not ever officially done this. Will we ever see it? Hmm, this would mean that the millions which have been paid by people for rebuilds would have to be returned with suitable compensation for losing their car (invariably due to usage patterns the summer months when it is needed). This would also mean that TVR owners may trust TVR due to their honesty (I would). However this would most likely backfire in getting new customers. New customers would not completely understand the SP6 saga and would probably not want to buy a car with an engine with an 80% failure rate whether it comes with a 3 year warranty or not!
I hope this makes the matter as clear as it can be. About as clear as mud. If these are the actions or a company you would like to entrust your hard earned money, then it's a free country. Others will too. Just dont do it before you know all the facts. This may include contacting TVR directly for a written explanation of the previous and potential problems. I, for one would love to see it.
By all means buy a Tuscan. I did and I loved driving it. If you buy new, you are covered by a three year warranty, so even *if* it needs a rebuild, at least you wont be paying for it for the first 3 years.
If you buy second hand, it is the risk you take. You may have a car which never needs to be rebuilt ever. A lot of people would say you would be lucky. To buy second hand, pretend that the car costs £5k more and when you buy it put your extra £5k in a savings account. I challenge anyone to add £5k to the cost of a second hand Tuscan and find a better car for your money.
If you never need a rebuild by the time you sell the Tuscan you will have £5k in the bank plus interest. If you need a rebuild, you thank yourself you did it, and the car is still within your total budget.
People who like driving cars such as TVRs are naturally not afraid of risk. Luckily this has proved not hugely problematic for their sales and their chance of being reliable. We are the type of people who are prepared to accept the risk. If not, the Tuscan is the wrong car for you. Boxters are cheap at the moment But to be honest you are far better off with a Griff!
justinp1 said:
2) The only cars really affected were the 2000-2001 Tuscans. The new 3.6 engine is fine.
I dont believe you have any basis for this statement whatsoever.
It can be argued strongly that:-
1. Newer models just havent got old enough (or enough mileage yet) to reach breaking point.
2. There are plenty of threads showing the 3.6 as having gone pop.
3. There is no evidence that recent rebuilds will last any longer than original engines. In fact there are plenty of cars with more than one rebuild.
4. So called '2004' rebuilds just aren't old enough to prove themselves.
5. Ditto for TVR Craft and their like. It would be nice to think that they have the answer, but only time will tell.
I have no objection to people picking on the speed six engine, which PLAINLY has issues, but please leave my lovingly cared for 2000 Tuscan out of your sweeping statements. Never mind anything else, what about the early S6 Cerberas? Its unfair and unfounded to class this as a Tuscan problem. Who knows how many othe TVR variations are going to suffer rebuilds in the future?
Please bitch about the S6 as much as you like, but i object to you dragging my Tuscan through the mud.
Tuska said:
2) The only cars really affected were the 2000-2001 Tuscans. The new 3.6 engine is fine.
I dont believe you have any basis for this statement whatsoever.
If you're not familiar with reading these threads on PH justin's statement can be taken very ambiguosly. All three assertions:
justinp1 said:
1) The SP6 problems are down to soft cams/finger followers, generally a batch of poor quality parts. These are now replaced and modified with parts of the correct quality.
2) The only cars really affected were the 2000-2001 Tuscans. The new 3.6 engine is fine.
3) We hear from TVR that the design for the SP6 has not changed since it went into production.
are commonly repeated rumours that have been shown to be nonsense - he was merely trying to summarise six years of debate and rumour, not attack Tuscans.
My word, i stand corrected. 
My point was (and is) that S6 problem should not be classed as a Tuscan problem. Particularly not a 2000 and 2001 Tuscan problem. Its a TVR problem.
I have clearly directed my post at the wrong person, but my point is still valid.
I'm in the camp of one who has put 5k in the bank for when (rather than if) it goes pop. It has already had one rebuild (2003), by TVR Power, and currently goes like the wind.
My point was (and is) that S6 problem should not be classed as a Tuscan problem. Particularly not a 2000 and 2001 Tuscan problem. Its a TVR problem.
I have clearly directed my post at the wrong person, but my point is still valid.
I'm in the camp of one who has put 5k in the bank for when (rather than if) it goes pop. It has already had one rebuild (2003), by TVR Power, and currently goes like the wind.
Hi,
Yeah I think people have got the point about why a wrote that.
None of it is my opinion, of in fact any personal knowledge. It is just a compilation of all the 'expert' views and summaries which have come from TVR, the factory, dealers, independants, informed people etc and made their way onto here.
As you probably have found each of my points and 'facts' has a completely opposite 'fact' which rubbishes it.
Thus when I was a Speed Six owner and when I look for a new one, who/what am I supposed to believe apart from gaining all the views and waiting for TVR to release some definate information?
By definate infomation it need not be 100% accurate as long as it is financially backed up to cover you otherwise...
Yeah I think people have got the point about why a wrote that.
None of it is my opinion, of in fact any personal knowledge. It is just a compilation of all the 'expert' views and summaries which have come from TVR, the factory, dealers, independants, informed people etc and made their way onto here.
As you probably have found each of my points and 'facts' has a completely opposite 'fact' which rubbishes it.
Thus when I was a Speed Six owner and when I look for a new one, who/what am I supposed to believe apart from gaining all the views and waiting for TVR to release some definate information?
By definate infomation it need not be 100% accurate as long as it is financially backed up to cover you otherwise...
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