A day out with Reg Local
Discussion
I consider myself to have good track driving skills, good car control and I believe I am a very good driver, I have just re-read Reg Locals excellent book and I know for sure that if I demonstrated a drive to him he would see confidence and better than joe public driving BUT I am open minded enough to see that I make mistakes on every drive or at least could have done it better...faster, who knows but safer and neater for sure.
For anyone to say that they cannot improve by any large margins is being held back by their own beliefs. I get the point but even in formula 1 which has the best of what has been discovered there will be huge differences and still improvement can be found...just depends if being 1/10th of a second faster seems a lot or not.
I know for sure that the ones who say, I am good and cannot be taught much more are the ones who would have the biggest room for improvement in many areas. I thought I was brilliant on track driving until I got better tuition, when ex F1 drivers, rally cross ex champs and others who could have done well in F1 who also had the skill to teach (and that is rare) I really found that I had some talent but was at the bottom of the curve, that was when I really began to learn.
For anyone to say that they cannot improve by any large margins is being held back by their own beliefs. I get the point but even in formula 1 which has the best of what has been discovered there will be huge differences and still improvement can be found...just depends if being 1/10th of a second faster seems a lot or not.
I know for sure that the ones who say, I am good and cannot be taught much more are the ones who would have the biggest room for improvement in many areas. I thought I was brilliant on track driving until I got better tuition, when ex F1 drivers, rally cross ex champs and others who could have done well in F1 who also had the skill to teach (and that is rare) I really found that I had some talent but was at the bottom of the curve, that was when I really began to learn.
Caddyshack said:
I consider myself to have good track driving skills, good car control and I believe I am a very good driver, I have just re-read Reg Locals excellent book and I know for sure that if I demonstrated a drive to him he would see confidence and better than joe public driving BUT I am open minded enough to see that I make mistakes on every drive or at least could have done it better...faster, who knows but safer and neater for sure.
For anyone to say that they cannot improve by any large margins is being held back by their own beliefs. I get the point but even in formula 1 which has the best of what has been discovered there will be huge differences and still improvement can be found...just depends if being 1/10th of a second faster seems a lot or not.
I know for sure that the ones who say, I am good and cannot be taught much more are the ones who would have the biggest room for improvement in many areas. I thought I was brilliant on track driving until I got better tuition, when ex F1 drivers, rally cross ex champs and others who could have done well in F1 who also had the skill to teach (and that is rare) I really found that I had some talent but was at the bottom of the curve, that was when I really began to learn.
You don't need a post-graduate degree in Pure Mathematics to man the till at the local newsagents, in much the same way that if you choose to use the roads and obey the speed limits you also don't need to have an ACU licence and/or be able to do a 120+mph lap of the IoM.. A perfectly adequate standard of driving in order to competently use the nation's roads without danger is easily attainable. The fact so many people struggle to produce that level has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of Advanced Driving and everything to do with the fact that they don't care. That is the real problem that needs addressing. If we are encouraging an increase in speed (which we never are) then that is when advanced driving should start to make sense.For anyone to say that they cannot improve by any large margins is being held back by their own beliefs. I get the point but even in formula 1 which has the best of what has been discovered there will be huge differences and still improvement can be found...just depends if being 1/10th of a second faster seems a lot or not.
I know for sure that the ones who say, I am good and cannot be taught much more are the ones who would have the biggest room for improvement in many areas. I thought I was brilliant on track driving until I got better tuition, when ex F1 drivers, rally cross ex champs and others who could have done well in F1 who also had the skill to teach (and that is rare) I really found that I had some talent but was at the bottom of the curve, that was when I really began to learn.
cmaguire said:
The fact so many people struggle to produce that level has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of Advanced Driving and everything to do with the fact that they don't care. That is the real problem that needs addressing. If we are encouraging an increase in speed (which we never are) then that is when advanced driving should start to make sense.
You make a valid point. The counter point I'd make is that perhaps 'Advanced Driving' as a subject or topic can address the 'don't care' aspect. You do need to get people engaged before that happens though.Your final point that Advanced Driving is only about an increase in speed, is massively wide of the mark however. If you think that's what it's about then take another look. It maybe a little to do with a higher 'average' speed over a certain route, by applying some best practices. But an outright speed 'increase'? No.
SpeckledJim said:
Why are you even here?
Next video request:
Reg Local takes cmaguire for a session and gently but comprehensively demolishes him!
From smugly satisfied to consciously incompetent in one eye-opening afternoon.
Maybe you're right.Next video request:
Reg Local takes cmaguire for a session and gently but comprehensively demolishes him!
From smugly satisfied to consciously incompetent in one eye-opening afternoon.
I should really just leave you lot to it.
Wardy5 said:
You make a valid point. The counter point I'd make is that perhaps 'Advanced Driving' as a subject or topic can address the 'don't care' aspect. You do need to get people engaged before that happens though.
Your final point that Advanced Driving is only about an increase in speed, is massively wide of the mark however. If you think that's what it's about then take another look. It maybe a little to do with a higher 'average' speed over a certain route, by applying some best practices. But an outright speed 'increase'? No.
I accept your point about speed in principle, but at the pedestrian levels of that currently permitted legally my belief is that a significant increase of speed is first required before what you say is true.Your final point that Advanced Driving is only about an increase in speed, is massively wide of the mark however. If you think that's what it's about then take another look. It maybe a little to do with a higher 'average' speed over a certain route, by applying some best practices. But an outright speed 'increase'? No.
And wierdly, there is an ever increasing number of drivers that have actually slowed down within existing limits they were very unlikely to have been exceeding previously. What is that all about?
cmaguire said:
You don't need a post-graduate degree in Pure Mathematics to man the till at the local newsagents, in much the same way that if you choose to use the roads and obey the speed limits you also don't need to have an ACU licence and/or be able to do a 120+mph lap of the IoM.. A perfectly adequate standard of driving in order to competently use the nation's roads without danger is easily attainable. The fact so many people struggle to produce that level has absolutely nothing to do with a lack of Advanced Driving and everything to do with the fact that they don't care. That is the real problem that needs addressing. If we are encouraging an increase in speed (which we never are) then that is when advanced driving should start to make sense.
That wasn't my point. What you say above is "why bother improving when above average is good enough", yes that is right but if you want to constantly improve then take tuition with an open mind, if you don't and you are happy then leave it there.If you can swim and make it 2 lengths of a pool then that is probably good enough for 99% of all you will ever need in life, you could then go on and learn to swim well but if after that you then ask how much could an Olympic athlete trainer benefit you as you are already pretty good would be a little daft?
If there was something I'd like to address, it would be my inconsistency. Some days I might be chilled and safe but not driving at my best. Some days I'm a tightly wound spring and nowhere near driving at my best. Some days I might strike a happy medium and be vaguely okay.
Then I might be absolutely knackered after working a 10 hour shift and it might be pouring with rain on a murky November evening... all of these variables make a huge difference to my performance as a driver. And I've not even got in the car yet.
Then I might be absolutely knackered after working a 10 hour shift and it might be pouring with rain on a murky November evening... all of these variables make a huge difference to my performance as a driver. And I've not even got in the car yet.
I went out with Reg on Saturday afternoon in the rain and it was a great experience, fundamentally we focused on two things (speed is not a common factor):
- General awareness and avoiding hazards created by other road users/pedestrians/third party. Whatever speed you travel at being aware of what is happening around you and pre-meditating other road users behavior will make you a better driver; this then feeds into maneuvers such as overtaking because you will be planning ahead.
- Smooth; we spent a lot of time looking at approaching corners and input speeds into general maneuvers. Fundamentally this allows you to get on the accelerator earlier but more importantly keeps the car balanced and under control whether on a round about or high speed bend.
Driving a tail happy car (S2000 in the wet) the afternoon with Reg gave me increased confidence in my driving and control in my inputs. I would thoroughly recommend a half day/day with him; every bloke thinks of himself as a great driver and I'm sure some are. However, the majority could learn a thing of 2 from Reg.
- General awareness and avoiding hazards created by other road users/pedestrians/third party. Whatever speed you travel at being aware of what is happening around you and pre-meditating other road users behavior will make you a better driver; this then feeds into maneuvers such as overtaking because you will be planning ahead.
- Smooth; we spent a lot of time looking at approaching corners and input speeds into general maneuvers. Fundamentally this allows you to get on the accelerator earlier but more importantly keeps the car balanced and under control whether on a round about or high speed bend.
Driving a tail happy car (S2000 in the wet) the afternoon with Reg gave me increased confidence in my driving and control in my inputs. I would thoroughly recommend a half day/day with him; every bloke thinks of himself as a great driver and I'm sure some are. However, the majority could learn a thing of 2 from Reg.
An interesting thread, I too would be interested in a day out with Reg.
Having said that, I can agree with some of cmaguire's points (not all but some)... If someone tells me they're a member of IAM I don't automatically think they'll be a great driver, I'm probably more inclined to wonder if they might have wanted the 'advanced driver' label and why, what their driving was like before they had any advanced training (and why they couldn't just learn from self analysis / self improvement through experience), I wonder if they approach driving as some sort of academic subject so perhaps don't have much natural feel (for want of a better term). If someone has chosen to go down that road (pardon the pun) it may also prompt the question why they haven't already reached the top of some advanced driving scale, and if they really want to know/prove their limits at vehicle control may prompt questions on how many trophies they've won in rally / race driving.
Not everyone could develop their driving skills to the point of being a Police advanced driving instructor, natural ability differs. I reckon some people with low natural ability could eventually pass some IAM test but that wouldn't necessarily make them a better driver than someone who never had any advanced training but had natural ability and the right attitude.
I might get slated for this - Not sure who's driving I would rather trust between 1. An old mate who used to have a reputation as a boy racer, certainly drove too fast, took too many risks and who's driving skills back then were questionable but who managed to get through the boy racer stage without any scrapes. Someone I'd seen handle some pretty hairy situations including skid recovery and make good split second decisions, perhaps a fair amount of natural ability who learned through experience until they ended up older, more sensible, and ended up driving like Reg does in his videos. Or 2 someone who never went through any of that, seldom broke a speed limit, never went around a corner sideways for the fun of it but received training and now drives like Reg does. The usual experience of being a passenger with either driver may be very similar between them but the question is which driver would you rather be a passenger with if things got hairy due to a 'surprise' provided by another road user.
Not saying it's all down to experience, experience is always a positive but has best effect when there's natural ability and the right attitude. The flip side of experience is that as we get more experienced we also get older, reactions get slower and bad habits can set in (the point on habits can tie in with attitude).
I'm 47 now and recently enjoyed watching most of Reg's free videos, pleased to see my dad taught me many of the points Reg teaches when he was teaching me to drive when I was 17.. but even before I started driving I reckon I picked up on how my dad drove from being a passenger so often with him. When I started driving I strived to emulate dad's driving, gained experience and found out why driving like that made sense - dad placed much more emphasis on how to handle the car through bends and positioning than the driving instructor did (though I only had 3 lessons before passing). Would like to think I've continually improved at driving but I don't know if at 47 I'm any better a driver than when I was (say) 28. More experienced, calmer and will allow a greater margin of safety but my reactions will be slower and the times when I'd go sideways etc for the fun of it are now much further in the past than when I was 28. Driving safely all the time must mean you lose practice in controlling the car near the limits (if you ever did that anyway) because a safe driver won't push the car to the limits of traction?
Having said that, I can agree with some of cmaguire's points (not all but some)... If someone tells me they're a member of IAM I don't automatically think they'll be a great driver, I'm probably more inclined to wonder if they might have wanted the 'advanced driver' label and why, what their driving was like before they had any advanced training (and why they couldn't just learn from self analysis / self improvement through experience), I wonder if they approach driving as some sort of academic subject so perhaps don't have much natural feel (for want of a better term). If someone has chosen to go down that road (pardon the pun) it may also prompt the question why they haven't already reached the top of some advanced driving scale, and if they really want to know/prove their limits at vehicle control may prompt questions on how many trophies they've won in rally / race driving.
Not everyone could develop their driving skills to the point of being a Police advanced driving instructor, natural ability differs. I reckon some people with low natural ability could eventually pass some IAM test but that wouldn't necessarily make them a better driver than someone who never had any advanced training but had natural ability and the right attitude.
I might get slated for this - Not sure who's driving I would rather trust between 1. An old mate who used to have a reputation as a boy racer, certainly drove too fast, took too many risks and who's driving skills back then were questionable but who managed to get through the boy racer stage without any scrapes. Someone I'd seen handle some pretty hairy situations including skid recovery and make good split second decisions, perhaps a fair amount of natural ability who learned through experience until they ended up older, more sensible, and ended up driving like Reg does in his videos. Or 2 someone who never went through any of that, seldom broke a speed limit, never went around a corner sideways for the fun of it but received training and now drives like Reg does. The usual experience of being a passenger with either driver may be very similar between them but the question is which driver would you rather be a passenger with if things got hairy due to a 'surprise' provided by another road user.
Not saying it's all down to experience, experience is always a positive but has best effect when there's natural ability and the right attitude. The flip side of experience is that as we get more experienced we also get older, reactions get slower and bad habits can set in (the point on habits can tie in with attitude).
I'm 47 now and recently enjoyed watching most of Reg's free videos, pleased to see my dad taught me many of the points Reg teaches when he was teaching me to drive when I was 17.. but even before I started driving I reckon I picked up on how my dad drove from being a passenger so often with him. When I started driving I strived to emulate dad's driving, gained experience and found out why driving like that made sense - dad placed much more emphasis on how to handle the car through bends and positioning than the driving instructor did (though I only had 3 lessons before passing). Would like to think I've continually improved at driving but I don't know if at 47 I'm any better a driver than when I was (say) 28. More experienced, calmer and will allow a greater margin of safety but my reactions will be slower and the times when I'd go sideways etc for the fun of it are now much further in the past than when I was 28. Driving safely all the time must mean you lose practice in controlling the car near the limits (if you ever did that anyway) because a safe driver won't push the car to the limits of traction?
A lot of emphasis on reaction times of older drivers, here and elsewhere.
Not sure it has any relevance in normal road driving. Assuming the driver is following best practice, plans ahead and drives to the conditions, a fraction of a second will rarely, if ever make any difference.
Fighter pilot reactions are only needed if you've already messed up, mostly.
Not sure it has any relevance in normal road driving. Assuming the driver is following best practice, plans ahead and drives to the conditions, a fraction of a second will rarely, if ever make any difference.
Fighter pilot reactions are only needed if you've already messed up, mostly.
LordGrover said:
A lot of emphasis on reaction times of older drivers, here and elsewhere.
Not sure it has any relevance in normal road driving. Assuming the driver is following best practice, plans ahead and drives to the conditions, a fraction of a second will rarely, if ever make any difference.
Fighter pilot reactions are only needed if you've already messed up, mostly.
I thought someone would make that point about reactions ;-) I do see your point, it's true, fast reactions won't make much difference in normal driving.. but can make a difference in an emergency situation. With the best will in the world a driver cannot anticipate every potential emergency that might arise. You could approach a junction with caution, make eye contact with a driver who's waiting to pull out of the junction and know that he's seen you, you might already be covering the brakes, but if he makes a mistake and pulls out anyway right in front of you that could still make for an emergency situation in which a driver with faster reactions chances of avoiding a crash could be better. By almost the very definition someone with slower reactions or worse than average at making split second decisions probably won't cut the grade as a fighter pilot... but an older pilot could give younger pilots the benefit of experience after his own reactions have slowed to the point he wouldn't fancy his own chances in a dogfight.Not sure it has any relevance in normal road driving. Assuming the driver is following best practice, plans ahead and drives to the conditions, a fraction of a second will rarely, if ever make any difference.
Fighter pilot reactions are only needed if you've already messed up, mostly.
None of which is intended as criticism of more experienced older drivers in any way. As said, I'm getting older myself! :-)
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 24th January 13:55
SimonYorkshire said:
An interesting thread, I too would be interested in a day out with Reg.
I'm 47 now and recently enjoyed watching most of Reg's free videos, pleased to see my dad taught me many of the points Reg teaches when he was teaching me to drive when I was 17.. but even before I started driving I reckon I picked up on how my dad drove from being a passenger so often with him. When I started driving I strived to emulate dad's driving, gained experience and found out why driving like that made sense
It has apparently been established that many drivers learn their driving attitudes and behaviour from their parents. Sounds like you learnt well. I'm 47 now and recently enjoyed watching most of Reg's free videos, pleased to see my dad taught me many of the points Reg teaches when he was teaching me to drive when I was 17.. but even before I started driving I reckon I picked up on how my dad drove from being a passenger so often with him. When I started driving I strived to emulate dad's driving, gained experience and found out why driving like that made sense
SimonYorkshire said:
I might get slated for this - Not sure who's driving I would rather trust between 1. An old mate who used to have a reputation as a boy racer, certainly drove too fast, took too many risks and who's driving skills back then were questionable but who managed to get through the boy racer stage without any scrapes. Someone I'd seen handle some pretty hairy situations including skid recovery and make good split second decisions, perhaps a fair amount of natural ability who learned through experience until they ended up older, more sensible, and ended up driving like Reg does in his videos. Or 2 someone who never went through any of that, seldom broke a speed limit, never went around a corner sideways for the fun of it but received training and now drives like Reg does. The usual experience of being a passenger with either driver may be very similar between them but the question is which driver would you rather be a passenger with if things got hairy due to a 'surprise' provided by another road user.
Driving safely all the time must mean you lose practice in controlling the car near the limits (if you ever did that anyway) because a safe driver won't push the car to the limits of traction?
There are a number of people that get worked up or confrontational/derogatory at some of my posts as I openly admit to having a total disregard of speed limits outside of urban areas. They can't handle the concept that this can be done safely. I've been at it more than 30 years now.Driving safely all the time must mean you lose practice in controlling the car near the limits (if you ever did that anyway) because a safe driver won't push the car to the limits of traction?
Your old mate that used to have a reputation as a boy racer is an approximation of my background, although it would probably be pushing it a bit to claim I drive like Reg though there is some crossover.
I agree entirely with your last paragraph. When I leave home there is a roundabout just over a mile down the road. I will usually slide the vehicle around that whether dry, wet, cold, or warm unless prevented from doing so by other traffic. And so on.
If you regularly exceed the amount of grip you have available and do this in all conditions then it becomes a non-event after a period. It becomes possible to look at the road surface ahead and reliably predict the point at which traction will be lost, but should the surface throw a curve-ball then the slide is nothing that hasn't been dealt with a thousand times before.
Slow things down and the chances of needing this obviously reduces dramatically (most people have no concept of where the limit of traction is bar the few that might spin the wheels from a standstill which teaches you nothing), but that curve-ball has the potential to happen at slower speeds too and more often than not it is a lucky escape or a crash for those without the experience to deal with it.
And again, as regards your 'hairy' event, the reactions to it for a driver that regularly drives significantly faster than everyone else ( and in doing that successfully is having to accomodate and deal with significant speed differentials as a matter of course) are likely to be more spontaneous/automatic than those of the driver that does not.
My personal opinion is that there are two main factors governing the driver/rider, those being natural ability/talent and practice makes perfect. You need both for a good result.
Where an individual draws the line on the Public Highway may or may not limit their progression, dependent on the above.
Or you can always 'save it for the track' as the oft mentioned saying goes.
On the subject of assessment of your own driving or anyone else's I have developed a rubric which is something that can help to increase transparency, reduce anxiety, and promote self assessment. It should be used as a tool with the student and then discussed on where each think they are at. As a result a re-calibration of performance may be required once the drive is conducted. Have a look, feel free to change it to suit your own needs!
https://twitter.com/AdvDrvTrainer/status/956255472...
https://twitter.com/AdvDrvTrainer/status/956255472...
Thanks to those who've replied to my posts above.
P1esk - I don't really have concerns about how age will effect my driving but as I get older I expect to have to allow for a wider safety margin.
Jex - I'd agree with that... But it does beg the question where my dad got it from because grandad wasn't a great driver lol. Dad was a club turn so while I was learning to drive I was driving him to a different club (and back) all over the country 6 nights a week so always unfamiliar roads (to me anyway, he seemed to know all the roads). It was often a case of being late setting off and having to drive fast or take shortcuts to get there on time, so say we were going to Hull we might cut some distance by instead of going North on A1 to join the M62 taking the country lanes that went NorthEast to join the M62, and it wasn't long before he'd get me to do 100mph on the straight bits of those roads and take corners fast, always giving tips and feedback on driving and asking what I'd do if some other driver made X mistake. It wasn't long before he let me drive on motorways on the way home in the early hours of the morning.. He went out of his way and even outside the law to make sure I could handle the car pretty well before I passed my test and got my own car. When I passed my test the driving instructor who went with me to the test station gave me a funny look and said 'You don't look very happy to say you've just passed your driving test'. A bit cocky of me but I didn't have much of a doubt I'd pass, probably had better car control than the majority of learners the examiner had seen thanks mostly to my dad so that was a none issue, was just a matter of driving as the examiner expected which was dead easy. I thought the test ought to have included something to check handling of emergency situations.
Daz6215 - I downloaded your rubric thanks, reads as expected which isn't a criticism. The concept of better understanding of how a car actually works effecting driving positively is interesting and something I agree with quite an extent. I'm the sort of driver who can diagnose problems from the drivers seat - play in drop links, wheel bearing wear, ball joints, springs, dampers, tyre pressure, brake feel and bias, calipers, disks, etc. All potential safety stuff, problems can affect how the car responds,
Cmaguire - I could tell a few stories about outrageous things I did in cars as a boy racer, some far worse than what you've said, stuff that seems almost unbelievable to have been possible to have pulled off and what I wouldn't be able to do again now (or have the guts/arrogance to do now)... but not recently! I consider myself lucky to have got through being a boy racer without a scrape to myself or anyone else, some of my mates not so lucky. Difficult to comment based on what you've said, I think I'd have to reserve judgement until I'd seen exactly what you mean, one person might think limit of traction is a very slight drift or bit of over / under steer, and at that they might have left a safety margin allowing for a bit of space in case the car goes a bit further out than expected... while a rally driver might consider that amount of margin unnecessary / too slow / easily inside his abilities, he might go full on opposite lock sideways foot to the floor allowing only the tiniest margin for error. Might expect The Stig to come off that roundabout maybe once every 2500 times if really pushing limits of traction at high enough speed, so if Stig did that every working day he might expect to come a cropper on the roundabout once every 10 years? That said, if I had to go around that roundabout in that way as a passenger in your car I'd prefer you to be driving it than a random person, as long as I knew you weren't going to push it a bit more to improve the demonstration.. I reckon there's a difference between trying to take the roundabout as fast as you can with the car stepping out to some degree because of that and intentionally stepping it out at a bit at a lower speed for the fun of it with the latter being far safer than the former. Could probably go around a roundabout with the front end of a Cortina or Senator pointed in sliding the back end until the tyres bust but that's different to going as fast as possible.
In truth I was more of a boy racer than all of my mates (except for one complete nutter who would overtake on blind bends etc in his 3L Essex engine'd mk1 Escort, he also dropped Rover V8's in all sorts of cars including a Reliant Robin but had to sit in the back of that because the engine was where the front seats were) but I haven't been a boy or a racer for a long time. As a boy racer it was mostly Escorts and Cortinas which were very tail happy, which I liked, the more 'Hill Street Blues' style the better. At the time I thought if I had a better handling car like a Sierra (or especially a 'boring fwd' car like a Cavalier) it would eventually lead to skills fading.. In my 20's I had 2.8i Granadas (slow), 3L Senators, 400+bhp Saphire Cosworths, etc, I gave them some stick but by then my boy racer stage had mostly passed. I still enjoy a bit of spirited driving in my own cars (which now comprise just a Chrysler Grand Voyager people carrier and a seldom used Merc ML for towing the caravan / boat... so hardly fast or good handling cars but I reckon you can get enjoyment from driving any car to a decent level of it's potential). But I run a business converting vehicles to LPG so I get to drive all sorts of vehicles from 35ft Yank RV's down to Smart cars and everything in-between, and I have put foot to the floor in everything I convert (not max speed but max engine load during acceleration) in order to calibrate the LPG system properly. This week I'm converting a 3L H6 Subaru, I've converted all the Subaru turbo stuff, recently converted a lot of Nissan Elgrand imported people carriers, got a reputation for converting performance models like Porsches, Maseratis, etc, converted a few cars with nearly 1000bhp (most recent Merc CL65AMG 6.odd L V12 twin turbo with uprated intercoolers, decat with wide bore exhaust and chipped with lifted boost pressure, speed de-restricted so top speed well in excess of 200mph. I never push customer cars other than foot to the floor on a straight road in order to calibrate the LPG system.
P1esk - I don't really have concerns about how age will effect my driving but as I get older I expect to have to allow for a wider safety margin.
Jex - I'd agree with that... But it does beg the question where my dad got it from because grandad wasn't a great driver lol. Dad was a club turn so while I was learning to drive I was driving him to a different club (and back) all over the country 6 nights a week so always unfamiliar roads (to me anyway, he seemed to know all the roads). It was often a case of being late setting off and having to drive fast or take shortcuts to get there on time, so say we were going to Hull we might cut some distance by instead of going North on A1 to join the M62 taking the country lanes that went NorthEast to join the M62, and it wasn't long before he'd get me to do 100mph on the straight bits of those roads and take corners fast, always giving tips and feedback on driving and asking what I'd do if some other driver made X mistake. It wasn't long before he let me drive on motorways on the way home in the early hours of the morning.. He went out of his way and even outside the law to make sure I could handle the car pretty well before I passed my test and got my own car. When I passed my test the driving instructor who went with me to the test station gave me a funny look and said 'You don't look very happy to say you've just passed your driving test'. A bit cocky of me but I didn't have much of a doubt I'd pass, probably had better car control than the majority of learners the examiner had seen thanks mostly to my dad so that was a none issue, was just a matter of driving as the examiner expected which was dead easy. I thought the test ought to have included something to check handling of emergency situations.
Daz6215 - I downloaded your rubric thanks, reads as expected which isn't a criticism. The concept of better understanding of how a car actually works effecting driving positively is interesting and something I agree with quite an extent. I'm the sort of driver who can diagnose problems from the drivers seat - play in drop links, wheel bearing wear, ball joints, springs, dampers, tyre pressure, brake feel and bias, calipers, disks, etc. All potential safety stuff, problems can affect how the car responds,
Cmaguire - I could tell a few stories about outrageous things I did in cars as a boy racer, some far worse than what you've said, stuff that seems almost unbelievable to have been possible to have pulled off and what I wouldn't be able to do again now (or have the guts/arrogance to do now)... but not recently! I consider myself lucky to have got through being a boy racer without a scrape to myself or anyone else, some of my mates not so lucky. Difficult to comment based on what you've said, I think I'd have to reserve judgement until I'd seen exactly what you mean, one person might think limit of traction is a very slight drift or bit of over / under steer, and at that they might have left a safety margin allowing for a bit of space in case the car goes a bit further out than expected... while a rally driver might consider that amount of margin unnecessary / too slow / easily inside his abilities, he might go full on opposite lock sideways foot to the floor allowing only the tiniest margin for error. Might expect The Stig to come off that roundabout maybe once every 2500 times if really pushing limits of traction at high enough speed, so if Stig did that every working day he might expect to come a cropper on the roundabout once every 10 years? That said, if I had to go around that roundabout in that way as a passenger in your car I'd prefer you to be driving it than a random person, as long as I knew you weren't going to push it a bit more to improve the demonstration.. I reckon there's a difference between trying to take the roundabout as fast as you can with the car stepping out to some degree because of that and intentionally stepping it out at a bit at a lower speed for the fun of it with the latter being far safer than the former. Could probably go around a roundabout with the front end of a Cortina or Senator pointed in sliding the back end until the tyres bust but that's different to going as fast as possible.
In truth I was more of a boy racer than all of my mates (except for one complete nutter who would overtake on blind bends etc in his 3L Essex engine'd mk1 Escort, he also dropped Rover V8's in all sorts of cars including a Reliant Robin but had to sit in the back of that because the engine was where the front seats were) but I haven't been a boy or a racer for a long time. As a boy racer it was mostly Escorts and Cortinas which were very tail happy, which I liked, the more 'Hill Street Blues' style the better. At the time I thought if I had a better handling car like a Sierra (or especially a 'boring fwd' car like a Cavalier) it would eventually lead to skills fading.. In my 20's I had 2.8i Granadas (slow), 3L Senators, 400+bhp Saphire Cosworths, etc, I gave them some stick but by then my boy racer stage had mostly passed. I still enjoy a bit of spirited driving in my own cars (which now comprise just a Chrysler Grand Voyager people carrier and a seldom used Merc ML for towing the caravan / boat... so hardly fast or good handling cars but I reckon you can get enjoyment from driving any car to a decent level of it's potential). But I run a business converting vehicles to LPG so I get to drive all sorts of vehicles from 35ft Yank RV's down to Smart cars and everything in-between, and I have put foot to the floor in everything I convert (not max speed but max engine load during acceleration) in order to calibrate the LPG system properly. This week I'm converting a 3L H6 Subaru, I've converted all the Subaru turbo stuff, recently converted a lot of Nissan Elgrand imported people carriers, got a reputation for converting performance models like Porsches, Maseratis, etc, converted a few cars with nearly 1000bhp (most recent Merc CL65AMG 6.odd L V12 twin turbo with uprated intercoolers, decat with wide bore exhaust and chipped with lifted boost pressure, speed de-restricted so top speed well in excess of 200mph. I never push customer cars other than foot to the floor on a straight road in order to calibrate the LPG system.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Thursday 25th January 12:20
daz6215 said:
On the subject of assessment of your own driving or anyone else's I have developed a rubric which is something that can help to increase transparency, reduce anxiety, and promote self assessment. It should be used as a tool with the student and then discussed on where each think they are at. As a result a re-calibration of performance may be required once the drive is conducted. Have a look, feel free to change it to suit your own needs!
https://twitter.com/AdvDrvTrainer/status/956255472...
Far too much faff on the web pages - couldn't be bothered. Sorry.https://twitter.com/AdvDrvTrainer/status/956255472...
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