Police Response Driving - My experience

Police Response Driving - My experience

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Discussion

Dizeee

18,166 posts

205 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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The skid pan at Hendon as been closed for years now, as far as I know there is no longer any physical limit handling or skid control training. I am sure Von can confirm, maybe a powerpoint presentation covers it now?

I found it fun and beneficial, although when I did mine I was already very used to and comfortable with understeer, less so with oversteer. I can see both sides of the argument for it's relevance, I found it helpful and informative, although I also see how being done in such a sterile and predictive environment fails to replicate any sort of real life application.

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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Dizeee said:
Whlst I accept that civilians will creep over and some may well exceed the limit either on their own or during civvy driver training, that differs hugely from regular and sustained high speed that police drivers will be accustomed to. There is no way that the thought processes are the same between a driver doing 90 in a 70 on a Sunday morning compared to the traffic officer doing in excess of 130mph more than once a day.

You could take it further, during training you can be sat at speeds of up to 150, or a fast as a car full of cops will go, for a pro longed period of time. Plus, your at that speed with not a jot of your brain function focussed on the risk of prosecution.
As I mentioned above, the crossover area is minor rural road driving, where speeds below three figures can be challenging. The sort of civilian drivers I know who have raised their driving to high levels generally keep quite close to 70 mph limits, but may have some exposure to high speeds through track driving.

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

260 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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waremark said:
As I mentioned above, the crossover area is minor rural road driving, where speeds below three figures can be challenging. The sort of civilian drivers I know who have raised their driving to high levels generally keep quite close to 70 mph limits, but may have some exposure to high speeds through track driving.
Is there any crossover between high speeds (as in approaching physical limits) on track and high speeds (as in wasting the minimum time while preserving safety margin for contingencies) on road though?

I was interested to see the comments about emergency trained drivers not generally involving themselves in civilian advanced driving circles due to the differences. I've come across a few police trained drivers who have been involved but got the impression they were so enthusiastic about what they'd learned they just wanted to pass it on. So it was up to the associate to remember the differences. My rule of thumb with police trained drivers, especially those who weren't instructors, is that if they feel safe but start hinting that I could perhaps make slightly better progress than I am, that's pretty much where I want to be.

This is perhaps why we are seeing this split in the IAM/ROSPA community between those who seem to define 'making progress' as driving as if on a blue light run, and those who seem to see some kind of virtue in going unnecessarily slowly. The original meaning of 'making progress' was the DVLA sense, that of not wasting any time. But too often it's used as euphemism for the kind of driving that's just about acceptable for a highly trained emergency driver with a flashing blue light if they've got a very good reason.




vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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waremark said:
Dizeee said:
Whlst I accept that civilians will creep over and some may well exceed the limit either on their own or during civvy driver training, that differs hugely from regular and sustained high speed that police drivers will be accustomed to. There is no way that the thought processes are the same between a driver doing 90 in a 70 on a Sunday morning compared to the traffic officer doing in excess of 130mph more than once a day.

You could take it further, during training you can be sat at speeds of up to 150, or a fast as a car full of cops will go, for a pro longed period of time. Plus, your at that speed with not a jot of your brain function focussed on the risk of prosecution.
As I mentioned above, the crossover area is minor rural road driving, where speeds below three figures can be challenging. The sort of civilian drivers I know who have raised their driving to high levels generally keep quite close to 70 mph limits, but may have some exposure to high speeds through track driving.
Close to 70mph limits?
Are you talking about challenging dual carriageways?
What dual carriageway do you have in mind?

S. Gonzales Esq.

2,556 posts

211 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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vonhosen said:
What dual carriageway do you have in mind?
I suspect it was a typo, but challenging dual carriageways do exist.

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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S. Gonzales Esq. said:
vonhosen said:
What dual carriageway do you have in mind?
I suspect it was a typo, but challenging dual carriageways do exist.
Why do you think it was a typo? My use of challenging related to 'minor rural roads'; my point was that civilian enthusiasts tend not to drive fast on motorways and dual carriageways where speeds which would be challenging would also get you locked up. They keep three figure speeds for tracks, and keep close to 70 on motorways and dual carriageways, where the main challenge becomes to stay awake.

As for whether high speeds on tracks are equivalent to high speeds where police drivers use them, if you travel at significant three figure speeds be it at Bruntingthorpe, Spa or the Nurburgring, you have to develop judgement of how far it takes to slow for the next bend or slower vehicle, even if you don't expect anyone to be coming the other way. However, I agree that there are extremely few civilian advanced drivers who have high speed experience comparable to police drivers.

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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waremark said:
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
vonhosen said:
What dual carriageway do you have in mind?
I suspect it was a typo, but challenging dual carriageways do exist.
Why do you think it was a typo? My use of challenging related to 'minor rural roads'; my point was that civilian enthusiasts tend not to drive fast on motorways and dual carriageways where speeds which would be challenging would also get you locked up. They keep three figure speeds for tracks, and keep close to 70 on motorways and dual carriageways, where the main challenge becomes to stay awake.
Thank you
My bad, I misunderstood.

waremark

3,241 posts

212 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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vonhosen said:
Thank you
My bad, I misunderstood.
smile

SVS

3,824 posts

270 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
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Dizeee said:
You could take it further, during training you can be sat at speeds of up to 150, or a fast as a car full of cops will go, for a pro longed period of time. Plus, your at that speed with not a jot of your brain function focussed on the risk of prosecution.
Good point.

Though it is possible to gain experience at speed on British roads. I did my civvy bike training on the Isle of Man biggrin

I wonder why more IAM and RoSPA peeps don’t pursue smile opportunities to train on the Isle of Man.

Dizeee

18,166 posts

205 months

Saturday 25th November 2017
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vonhosen said:
Close to 70mph limits?
Are you talking about challenging dual carriageways?
What dual carriageway do you have in mind?
I took his comment to relate to single track NSL roads that flow through a series of bends, where a driver is harnessed by the physical geography, the amount of hazards and of course their own ability.

I can see that presenting a very even playing field in terms of ability, as we know, there are many of these types of roads whereby the safest max speed is severely depressed, but they can also offer exceptional windows to illustrate system and progress, depending on the drivers ability to exploit them when they arise. That exploitation could be a beautifully expressed epsiode of advanced driving display, exercising progress and restraint for a pro longed period of time.

Whilst it is true that in this specific environment the respective talents may overlap, and I would imagine in some cases showcase the civilian driver in a higher light, it doesn't take away from the fact that as part of an all encompassing drive ( for e.g. a 30 min blat involving all road types ) I would expect the police response driver to show a better all round discipline and ability.

I have just read the above, and I applaud myself. I have come along way from the posts on ADUK back in 2006 and I hope my Mr Miyagi ( yes that's you Von ) approves.

Dizeee

18,166 posts

205 months

Saturday 25th November 2017
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waremark said:
Why do you think it was a typo? My use of challenging related to 'minor rural roads'; my point was that civilian enthusiasts tend not to drive fast on motorways and dual carriageways where speeds which would be challenging would also get you locked up. They keep three figure speeds for tracks, and keep close to 70 on motorways and dual carriageways, where the main challenge becomes to stay awake.

As for whether high speeds on tracks are equivalent to high speeds where police drivers use them, if you travel at significant three figure speeds be it at Bruntingthorpe, Spa or the Nurburgring, you have to develop judgement of how far it takes to slow for the next bend or slower vehicle, even if you don't expect anyone to be coming the other way. However, I agree that there are extremely few civilian advanced drivers who have high speed experience comparable to police drivers.
The blinding issue I can see between track driving and road driving is in one you have the presence of multiple and unknown hazards, getting it wrong can spell catastrophe with a capital C. On the other, you have a fully sterile environment where you are able to concentrate only on the tyre grip trade off, the balance of the machine, and finely honing your inputs in order to best achieve your outcome. Your brain on a track has greater ability to process as it is doing less in one area ( safety / public / very dynamic hazard events ) and more in another ( absence of those factors ).

Ironically, a bit like the IAM driver making progress ( what will my observer think / allow / will I get stopped / are there police in sight ) and the police driver making progress ( I can concentrate simply on what is safe, without any concerns of prosecution or interference ).

The long term affects on approach and skill between both of these comes back to my overriding point on how different they are. And that's just for a response driver.

Edited by Dizeee on Saturday 25th November 19:29

DocSteve

718 posts

221 months

Sunday 26th November 2017
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Reflecting on all of this, I think actually it just comes down to all-round ability (certainly not claiming anything personally but just some thoughts):

The competent track/race driver driving fast on the public road including urban areas coming unstuck: Demonstrates a need for improved hazard awareness and observation skills. These skills are beneficial on track despite the controlled environment.

The civilian or police advanced driver who is unable to perform well on track: Demonstrates a need to improve limit handling skills and how to extract the most out of a vehicle when common public highway hazards are removed. For example, if in a pursuit or response drive and a well sighted open bend is present then the police driver should be able to safely navigate it as fast as possible.

The civilian advanced driver who when put in a situation of having to drive fast in an urban area and coming unstuck: Demonstrates a need for improved hazard awareness and observation skills as per the race driver. Although the cross-over mentioned for rural roads is definitely there I think it really extends beyond that to all types of driving. Whether it is looking through hedges, vanishing points, small entrances, horse droppings etc etc the same should apply to urban driving and not just for the police pursuit driver. The police driver is having to do it faster so needs to be better at it than the civilian "advanced driver" but in reality it still comes down to good observation, anticipation and awareness of speed/grip.

I guess I am agreeing that there is no need to rank the different types of training but rather than say we are comparing very different things, I have come to the conclusion that we are just talking about good driving. As Vonhosen alludes to, you will be better in the setting you are used to (e.g. track vs urban pursuit driving) but the ambition should surely to be a driver who can adapt quickly to any given scenario.

That is difficult..... And I know of very few (I don't include me) that can do this.

Dizeee

18,166 posts

205 months

Tuesday 28th November 2017
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DocSteve said:
The civilian or police advanced driver who is unable to perform well on track: Demonstrates a need to improve limit handling skills and how to extract the most out of a vehicle when common public highway hazards are removed. For example, if in a pursuit or response drive and a well sighted open bend is present then the police driver should be able to safely navigate it as fast as possible.

All of what you have said is exactly as see it too. To pick up on your paragraph above, limit handing skills are not an active part of any police driver training. They may be discussed in theory, and on a skid pan applied to a certain degree, but not properly. You are never upsetting a vehicle enough on the road enough to be near to the limit or in a way that you need to adjust the inputs in order to re shape the car. This is an aspect of driving that has always particularly interested me and something I have always sought to explore and adventure. A large part of that is the absence of it from most police drivers repetoire. I think the skill and knowledge of a well trained police dirver combined with a willingness to continue learning and compliment their skills by journeying down such unexplored avenues has the potential to unleash a formidable driver.

What has always amazed me in police driving circles is the lack of understanding of how much it takes to get to / how easy it is to correct + control a vehicle driving on the egde of it's abilities. By virtue of the fact that police training must be catered to that of the lowest common denominator, and because "Smoothness" comes second only to "Safety", it is an area of driving that is just not routinely visited. You can't teach natural car control, that comes from experience and the desire to better understand it. You have to be a true enthusiast to want that in my opinion.

And so as such, getting back to the quote above, the police driver won't be able to navigate a corner as fast as possible in terms of what the car will do, but they will navigate it as fast as possible in terms of what their ability allows them to do. Driving within one's limited and ability is a key part of what is taught. Safety and Smoothness over Speed and Sparkle. ( System in the middle ).

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Tuesday 28th November 2017
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Dizeee said:
DocSteve said:
The civilian or police advanced driver who is unable to perform well on track: Demonstrates a need to improve limit handling skills and how to extract the most out of a vehicle when common public highway hazards are removed. For example, if in a pursuit or response drive and a well sighted open bend is present then the police driver should be able to safely navigate it as fast as possible.

All of what you have said is exactly as see it too. To pick up on your paragraph above, limit handing skills are not an active part of any police driver training. They may be discussed in theory, and on a skid pan applied to a certain degree, but not properly. You are never upsetting a vehicle enough on the road enough to be near to the limit or in a way that you need to adjust the inputs in order to re shape the car. This is an aspect of driving that has always particularly interested me and something I have always sought to explore and adventure. A large part of that is the absence of it from most police drivers repetoire. I think the skill and knowledge of a well trained police dirver combined with a willingness to continue learning and compliment their skills by journeying down such unexplored avenues has the potential to unleash a formidable driver.

What has always amazed me in police driving circles is the lack of understanding of how much it takes to get to / how easy it is to correct + control a vehicle driving on the egde of it's abilities. By virtue of the fact that police training must be catered to that of the lowest common denominator, and because "Smoothness" comes second only to "Safety", it is an area of driving that is just not routinely visited. You can't teach natural car control, that comes from experience and the desire to better understand it. You have to be a true enthusiast to want that in my opinion.

And so as such, getting back to the quote above, the police driver won't be able to navigate a corner as fast as possible in terms of what the car will do, but they will navigate it as fast as possible in terms of what their ability allows them to do. Driving within one's limited and ability is a key part of what is taught. Safety and Smoothness over Speed and Sparkle. ( System in the middle ).
Routinely Police drivers don't do much on the limit handling (other than what used to be done at low speed on skid pans, which all response drivers used to get a few hours at & all Advanced drivers got a bit longer at - but most courses don't provide any skid pan experience anymore).

Of course there are specialist courses that provide some experience of handling at & beyond the limits of grip at higher speeds on regular rather than low grip surfaces, such as anti hijack, or for lower grip surfaces you have off road car/motorcycle/quad courses. You'll also have a smaller number who are fortunate that through their work will have spent some time with others within 'the industry' ('Hairy Don' etc) at places like Bruntingthorpe, Rockingham & the like, or even on courses provided by manufacturers in some cases.

Dizeee

18,166 posts

205 months

Wednesday 29th November 2017
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The anti hijack course as i understand it is used to teach specific techniques ( 3? ) for prot officers to "get out of" a situation. It doesn't have anything to do with sustained driving on the limit at speed, for example, cornering at speed at around 90% of the tyres capability, where you have steadily increased the velocity into the bend to that point, so the car is balanced but just starting to get to the point where the forces upon it are close to breaking traction. That's a skill in it's own right, proper car control, being confident and able to robustly put the car into a comfortable yet forceful position, do it smoothly, hold it there, and then see it through and out into the straight. The skill being to do it repeatedly, and effectively, and consistently - and with a small margin of error left ( think 3 stage breaking mid bend, where you are braking up to and at the point of understeer before it happens, and balancing breaking as well as adapting it to the corner, maybe even reducing the curvature of the bend in your own lane slightly to allow that extra smidge of efficient force ).

This type of driving really excites me, always has, and this does go above and beyond any police training done. But naturally it would, as police drivers just need to be safe, not quick.

The off road course, car and bike, yeah they don't really excite me. That's just about low speed understanding of grip and inertia to open your eyes as to how far you can take an off road vehicle off road.

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Wednesday 29th November 2017
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Dizeee said:
The anti hijack course as i understand it is used to teach specific techniques ( 3? ) for prot officers to "get out of" a situation. It doesn't have anything to do with sustained driving on the limit at speed, for example, cornering at speed at around 90% of the tyres capability, where you have steadily increased the velocity into the bend to that point, so the car is balanced but just starting to get to the point where the forces upon it are close to breaking traction. That's a skill in it's own right, proper car control, being confident and able to robustly put the car into a comfortable yet forceful position, do it smoothly, hold it there, and then see it through and out into the straight. The skill being to do it repeatedly, and effectively, and consistently - and with a small margin of error left ( think 3 stage breaking mid bend, where you are braking up to and at the point of understeer before it happens, and balancing breaking as well as adapting it to the corner, maybe even reducing the curvature of the bend in your own lane slightly to allow that extra smidge of efficient force ).

This type of driving really excites me, always has, and this does go above and beyond any police training done. But naturally it would, as police drivers just need to be safe, not quick.

The off road course, car and bike, yeah they don't really excite me. That's just about low speed understanding of grip and inertia to open your eyes as to how far you can take an off road vehicle off road.
The anti hijack course will have you driving around courses, timed laps, where you will be on the limit of grip (people inevitably end up going beyond it) as well as including specific manoeuvre elements. You will also look at/feel how vehicles behave at & beyond the limits of grip (understeer & oversteer) with ESP/DSC systems both on & off. (Even some drifting & how you can intentionally destabilise the vehicle/promote a loss of grip, in order to achieve what you desire from it in certain circumstances).

Some of the other courses I was alluding to, that some departments do with outside providers etc, can involve limit handling.

DocSteve

718 posts

221 months

Thursday 30th November 2017
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Is "Hairy Don" Don Palmer by any chance??

Dizeee

18,166 posts

205 months

Thursday 30th November 2017
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vonhosen said:
The anti hijack course will have you driving around courses, timed laps, where you will be on the limit of grip (people inevitably end up going beyond it) as well as including specific manoeuvre elements. You will also look at/feel how vehicles behave at & beyond the limits of grip (understeer & oversteer) with ESP/DSC systems both on & off. (Even some drifting & how you can intentionally destabilise the vehicle/promote a loss of grip, in order to achieve what you desire from it in certain circumstances).

Some of the other courses I was alluding to, that some departments do with outside providers etc, can involve limit handling.
Well that's interesting. A friend of mine just did the anti hijack course, I never got round to asking him about it. Also interested to hear that departments may go further and explore limit handling as part of their role - would one of those departments be the same one you have just vacated by any chance?

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Thursday 30th November 2017
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Dizeee said:
vonhosen said:
The anti hijack course will have you driving around courses, timed laps, where you will be on the limit of grip (people inevitably end up going beyond it) as well as including specific manoeuvre elements. You will also look at/feel how vehicles behave at & beyond the limits of grip (understeer & oversteer) with ESP/DSC systems both on & off. (Even some drifting & how you can intentionally destabilise the vehicle/promote a loss of grip, in order to achieve what you desire from it in certain circumstances).

Some of the other courses I was alluding to, that some departments do with outside providers etc, can involve limit handling.
Well that's interesting. A friend of mine just did the anti hijack course, I never got round to asking him about it. Also interested to hear that departments may go further and explore limit handling as part of their role - would one of those departments be the same one you have just vacated by any chance?
And others use outside providers.

dvenman

219 posts

114 months

Saturday 16th December 2017
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I've found a similar diary-type thread on another AD site - it's a couple of years old but still pertinent, and a different slant on police driver training.

http://www.advanceddrivinghub.com/forum/viewtopic....