Undertaking....
Discussion
Graveworm said:
glennjamin said:
Please forgive my ignorance but, Is it legal if you are in a queue on dual carriageway to change lanes at every opportunity to try and bunny hop further up the queue ? I spent 20 minutes watching a Prick in a Brand New Defender doing this last week on the A30. Only for the lane he ended up in slowed drastically due to broken down vehicle and I eventually overtook him as the other drivers refused to let him out .
It's contrary to the Highway code so could be careless/inconsiderate but there isn't a specific prevention of bunny hopping act. There is another PH thread about the legality of roundabout slingshots (i.e. skipping the tailback and doing a full 360 in order to then be able to take the first exit),
A PHer on there provided a link (the second one below) to the Crown Prosecution Service specifically stating that mis-using any lane to gain an advantage may amount to careless or inconsiderate driving.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic...
'The following may, depending on the facts and circumstances of each individual case, amount to inconsiderate driving:
- flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way
- misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers
- unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause
- driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians
- driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed
- driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers'
Another CPS link: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/driving-offences
'The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
Some examples of careless or inconsiderate driving are:
- overtaking on the inside;
- driving too close to another vehicle;
- driving through a red light by mistake;
- turning into the path of another vehicle;
- the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
- flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
- misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
- unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
- dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights.'
captain.scarlet said:
Graveworm said:
glennjamin said:
Please forgive my ignorance but, Is it legal if you are in a queue on dual carriageway to change lanes at every opportunity to try and bunny hop further up the queue ? I spent 20 minutes watching a Prick in a Brand New Defender doing this last week on the A30. Only for the lane he ended up in slowed drastically due to broken down vehicle and I eventually overtook him as the other drivers refused to let him out .
It's contrary to the Highway code so could be careless/inconsiderate but there isn't a specific prevention of bunny hopping act. There is another PH thread about the legality of roundabout slingshots (i.e. skipping the tailback and doing a full 360 in order to then be able to take the first exit),
A PHer on there provided a link (the second one below) to the Crown Prosecution Service specifically stating that mis-using any lane to gain an advantage may amount to careless or inconsiderate driving.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic...
'The following may, depending on the facts and circumstances of each individual case, amount to inconsiderate driving:
- flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way
- misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers
- unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause
- driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians
- driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed
- driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers'
Another CPS link: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/driving-offences
'The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
Some examples of careless or inconsiderate driving are:
- overtaking on the inside;
- driving too close to another vehicle;
- driving through a red light by mistake;
- turning into the path of another vehicle;
- the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
- flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
- misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
- unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
- dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights.'
using the correct lane of a roundabout to use the roundabout as it is designed to be used and gaining and advantage on queuing traffic is therefore not lane abuse, perhaps just morally s
tty behaviour, but not illegal.simon_harris said:
captain.scarlet said:
Graveworm said:
glennjamin said:
Please forgive my ignorance but, Is it legal if you are in a queue on dual carriageway to change lanes at every opportunity to try and bunny hop further up the queue ? I spent 20 minutes watching a Prick in a Brand New Defender doing this last week on the A30. Only for the lane he ended up in slowed drastically due to broken down vehicle and I eventually overtook him as the other drivers refused to let him out .
It's contrary to the Highway code so could be careless/inconsiderate but there isn't a specific prevention of bunny hopping act. There is another PH thread about the legality of roundabout slingshots (i.e. skipping the tailback and doing a full 360 in order to then be able to take the first exit),
A PHer on there provided a link (the second one below) to the Crown Prosecution Service specifically stating that mis-using any lane to gain an advantage may amount to careless or inconsiderate driving.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic...
'The following may, depending on the facts and circumstances of each individual case, amount to inconsiderate driving:
- flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way
- misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers
- unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause
- driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians
- driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed
- driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers'
Another CPS link: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/driving-offences
'The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
Some examples of careless or inconsiderate driving are:
- overtaking on the inside;
- driving too close to another vehicle;
- driving through a red light by mistake;
- turning into the path of another vehicle;
- the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
- flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
- misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
- unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
- dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights.'
using the correct lane of a roundabout to use the roundabout as it is designed to be used and gaining and advantage on queuing traffic is therefore not lane abuse, perhaps just morally s
tty behaviour, but not illegal.captain.scarlet said:
Graveworm said:
glennjamin said:
Please forgive my ignorance but, Is it legal if you are in a queue on dual carriageway to change lanes at every opportunity to try and bunny hop further up the queue ? I spent 20 minutes watching a Prick in a Brand New Defender doing this last week on the A30. Only for the lane he ended up in slowed drastically due to broken down vehicle and I eventually overtook him as the other drivers refused to let him out .
It's contrary to the Highway code so could be careless/inconsiderate but there isn't a specific prevention of bunny hopping act. There is another PH thread about the legality of roundabout slingshots (i.e. skipping the tailback and doing a full 360 in order to then be able to take the first exit),
A PHer on there provided a link (the second one below) to the Crown Prosecution Service specifically stating that mis-using any lane to gain an advantage may amount to careless or inconsiderate driving.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/road-traffic...
'The following may, depending on the facts and circumstances of each individual case, amount to inconsiderate driving:
- flashing of lights to force other drivers in front to give way
- misuse of any lane (including cycling lanes) to avoid queuing or gain some other advantage over other drivers
- unnecessarily remaining in an overtaking lane
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking without good cause
- driving with un-dipped headlights which dazzle oncoming drivers, cyclists or pedestrians
- driving through a puddle causing pedestrians to be splashed
- driving a bus in such a way as to alarm passengers'
Another CPS link: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/driving-offences
'The offence of driving without due care and attention (careless driving) under section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is committed when the defendant's driving falls below the standard expected of a competent and careful driver - section 3ZA(2) of the RTA 1988.
Some examples of careless or inconsiderate driving are:
- overtaking on the inside;
- driving too close to another vehicle;
- driving through a red light by mistake;
- turning into the path of another vehicle;
- the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
- flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
- misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
- unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
- unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
- dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights.'
Graveworm said:
Which lane does the Highway code say one should use to take the first exit? There is no lane to circumnavigate a roundabout.
Exactly this - the left hand lane is for turning left, the right hand lane (generally) isn't. Deliberately taking a lane that is not intended for your exit in order to pass the other traffic and circumnavigate the roundabout surely fits into the definition of 'misusing a lane to take advantage'. Pica-Pica said:
It would be interesting to see the CPS comment on lane closures and subsequent merges, then.
Whereas in this case the lane is open for moving forward up until the closure, so there's no misuse. You're using it for its intended purpose, if other people choose to unnecessarily queue then it's up to them. Also the HC is pretty clear on the topic.https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answer...
Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
simon_harris said:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answer...
Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
But in that case you've simply decided to turn around and go back. So you've used the correct lane for that purpose. There is a legitimate lane for turning left at a roundabout, and there's a legitimate lane for doing a U turn at a roundabout. In the U turn example you're using the right hand lane as intended and you're not gaining an advantage over other road users. But by deliberately 'slingshotting' you're using the right hand lane to turn left (which is not what the lane is for) with the intention of gaining an advantage, and just for good measure making the people in the queue give way to you when you leave!Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
DaiB said:
But in that case you've simply decided to turn around and go back. So you've used the correct lane for that purpose. There is a legitimate lane for turning left at a roundabout, and there's a legitimate lane for doing a U turn at a roundabout. In the U turn example you're using the right hand lane as intended and you're not gaining an advantage over other road users. But by deliberately 'slingshotting' you're using the right hand lane to turn left (which is not what the lane is for) with the intention of gaining an advantage, and just for good measure making the people in the queue give way to you when you leave!
I am not talking about intent I am talking about legality, I can't see anything that suggests it is an illegal manoeuvre other than perhaps careless or inconsiderate driving and those are broad spectrum offences not specific to this example.On a roundabout there is an appropriate lane to go all the way around the roundabout, it is the right hand lane
if we put it another way on a 3 exit roundabout with a queue for the left lane and you passed all the traffic in the left lane waiting to turn left and went straight on, got to an appropriate point in the road and carried out a 3 point turn, came back to the roundabout and turned right there would be nothing illegal, but would still be "gaining advantage" on the queuing drivers.
If you can find some examples of where it is covered in legislation I'll happy concede the point, until then I think I am in the s
tty behaviour but not illegal camp.simon_harris said:
If you can find some examples of where it is covered in legislation I'll happy concede the point, until then I think I am in the stty behaviour but not illegal camp.
It would be covered under driving without due consideration for other road users. A day or two ago in this same thread someone posted the CPS guidelines for charging an offender, and that type of situation was covered in the guidelines. tty behaviour but not illegal camp.Driving without due care and attention comes under careless driving, the bar for prosecuting that seems to be a collision of some sort (spraying pedestrians with water from a puddle meets that criteria) For the prosecution to prove the offence of driving without reasonable consideration, it must show that other road users were inconvenienced by the defendant's driving, although this can be proved by inference. Other road users can include passengers in the defendant's car.
the lane misuse linked in the CPS examples earlier all I can find for that is references to bus or cycle lanes - I must admit i thought that using a left/right hand turn lane to go straight on was also classed as lane misuse but I can find no reference to that either.
so for someone to be prosecuted for going all the way around a roundabout to go left you would have to be able to prove other drivers were inconvenienced and I think that would be difficult.
To further illustrate my point, if you approached an empty roundabout, misunderstood your sat nav directions and ended up going all the way around in the correct lane to find your exit no possible offence would have been committed. Ipso facto not illegal to go all the way around a roundabout but illegal to inconvenience someone while doing so.
the lane misuse linked in the CPS examples earlier all I can find for that is references to bus or cycle lanes - I must admit i thought that using a left/right hand turn lane to go straight on was also classed as lane misuse but I can find no reference to that either.
so for someone to be prosecuted for going all the way around a roundabout to go left you would have to be able to prove other drivers were inconvenienced and I think that would be difficult.
To further illustrate my point, if you approached an empty roundabout, misunderstood your sat nav directions and ended up going all the way around in the correct lane to find your exit no possible offence would have been committed. Ipso facto not illegal to go all the way around a roundabout but illegal to inconvenience someone while doing so.
Graveworm said:
Which lane does the Highway code say one should use to take the first exit? There is no lane to circumnavigate a roundabout.
I agree with this but if the queue is to go striaght on I would use lane 2 to circumvent the roundabout to leave at the first exit. For me the question is, am I joining free-flowing traffic/ empty road (which I think is not inconsiderate) or am I simply moving myself further up the queue (which I think, is)? Zeeky said:
I agree with this but if the queue is to go striaght on I would use lane 2 to circumvent the roundabout to leave at the first exit. For me the question is, am I joining free-flowing traffic/ empty road (which I think is not inconsiderate) or am I simply moving myself further up the queue (which I think, is)?
Suppose you knew a short cut-through to avoid the roundabout - would there be anything even vaguely questionable about using it? Is taking the right lane and circumnavigating the roundabout really different from that? Both end up with the queueing vehicles one further back on the new road.What is the legality of exiting a motorway blocked with standing traffic at a services and rejoining ahead of where you would have been? I cannot see anything illegal in this at all even though I would never do it. On the one hand, exiting and rejoining a motorway adds unnecessary risk but on the other hand, you could simply argue that you exited because you were short of fuel and changed your mind when you saw the price. Exit / rejoin has the same effect as a roundabout slingshot - using the appropriate lanes in compliance with regulation but gaining an advantage over where you were supposed to have been.
simon_harris said:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answer...
Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
Full circle is coming back the same way, as you describe it's not going around again to take the first exit. There is a correct lane for the first exit. Every car in the queue is inconvenienced as are any other drivers waiting to join the roundabout from other exits, because their journey is longer as result of one driver. That's inconsiderate driving. Nothing will happen but that's not the same as it isn't inconsiderate. Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
Graveworm said:
simon_harris said:
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answer...
Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
Full circle is coming back the same way, as you describe it's not going around again to take the first exit. There is a correct lane for the first exit. Every car in the queue is inconvenienced as are any other drivers waiting to join the roundabout from other exits, because their journey is longer as result of one driver. That's inconsiderate driving. Nothing will happen but that's not the same as it isn't inconsiderate. Interestingly section 186 mentions going full circle on the roundabout...
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle (unless signs or markings indicate otherwise):
Signal right and approach the exit in the right hand lane
Keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to reach your exit
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you intend to take
Other sources suggested that it could be classed as careless or inconsiderate driving but that seems to be such a subjective thing rather than descriptive.
from my reading of that so long as you use the correct lane then there is nothing intrinsically illegal about the manoeuvre, but perhaps more how you do it. After all if you decided you didn't want to wait in the traffic so were going to go back the way you had come you would follow mostly the same path but just take one earlier exit and nobody is suggesting any problem with that?
The two lanes at the roundabout on the way to work were (straight + left) and (right only).
There was usually a tailback on the left-hand lane due mostly to people wanting to take the second exit / carry straight on. This meant the few people wanting to take the first exit were being massively inconvenienced. I wouldn't say it would be inconsiderate to take the right-hand lane, do a loop of the roundabout and take the original first exit.
By contrast there was specific school bus that would almost always take the right-hand lane, do a loop of the roundabout and then take the original second exit so as to bypass the queue. That, I think, could easily be deemed inconsiderate driving.
Road markings for roundabouts in and around Oxford are generally designed to cause confusion if not accidents. As such, it may not be surprising that the slingshot route is likely to become compulsory for a tight left turn on the roundabout at the Plain near the town centre. Apparently, the idea is to make things safer for cyclists overtaking cars on the left on the approach. If a council can make it compulsory for one location, can it be illegal in general?
Peter3442 said:
Road markings for roundabouts in and around Oxford are generally designed to cause confusion if not accidents. As such, it may not be surprising that the slingshot route is likely to become compulsory for a tight left turn on the roundabout at the Plain near the town centre. Apparently, the idea is to make things safer for cyclists overtaking cars on the left on the approach. If a council can make it compulsory for one location, can it be illegal in general?
If the lane, to take the first exit, is the offside lane then that's the correct lane. The corollary, in that case, is - could someone, using the nearside lane and inconveniencing others be driving inconsiderately?Hi all
Would be interested in the advance motorist view on the following hypothetical situation.
Clear 3 lane motorway at 5am. The only 2 cars for miles each way are (1) middle lane motorist in L2 and clearly sat there for some time doing circa 65 and (2) motorist in L1 doing 70.
Driver in L1 observes MLM driver for circa 1 mile, and it is clear MLM is not changing lane.
L1 driver passes MLM on the left at steady speed.
Now I know that it is not illegal to do this - but I read above that it is possible to be done for driving without due care and attention or even reckless driving.
With the increase in dashcam use, is it possible for MLM to submit dashcam footage to the police (or even put it on YouTube) - in these circumstances is there a possibility of prosecution for L1 driver for driving w/o due care and attention or reckless driving?
Just asking for thoughts on likelihood of prosecution - as the more I look at it, the more I think that it is “safer” (from a points / fines perspective) to go from L1 to L3 back to L1.
Thanks
Would be interested in the advance motorist view on the following hypothetical situation.
Clear 3 lane motorway at 5am. The only 2 cars for miles each way are (1) middle lane motorist in L2 and clearly sat there for some time doing circa 65 and (2) motorist in L1 doing 70.
Driver in L1 observes MLM driver for circa 1 mile, and it is clear MLM is not changing lane.
L1 driver passes MLM on the left at steady speed.
Now I know that it is not illegal to do this - but I read above that it is possible to be done for driving without due care and attention or even reckless driving.
With the increase in dashcam use, is it possible for MLM to submit dashcam footage to the police (or even put it on YouTube) - in these circumstances is there a possibility of prosecution for L1 driver for driving w/o due care and attention or reckless driving?
Just asking for thoughts on likelihood of prosecution - as the more I look at it, the more I think that it is “safer” (from a points / fines perspective) to go from L1 to L3 back to L1.
Thanks
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