disappointing first session of IAM training
Discussion
johnao said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Dizeee said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The ADI I was talking about thought it was illegal to overtake where there was a solid line on your side even if you didn't cross or straddle it.
My goodness - seriously? So for example, a motorbike filtering down the side of traffic and not crossing the solid line etc?One view is that the traffic queue is “parked”; so that’s ok then. Another view is that it’s temporarily stationary, ie “waiting”; so that’s not OK.
But clearly it’s the crossing of the solid white line that is the issue, not that an overtake within the white lines has taken place.
As for the traffic queue, the law says the crossing the line exemption is for passing a 'stationary' vehicle, not a 'parked' vehicle. So no problem.
There seems to have been many different views of the IAM / ROSPA type driving assessments, so I thought I'd throw in my observations as a IAM / ROSPA observer and police advanced driver.
Like anything some groups are better than others, with varying degrees of abilities within the group, it seems to me that the majority of groups are made up of the slightly older age group and are quite defensive of their driving abilities (if there is one thing I have found it is that people would rather have their children and family criticised than their driving) often they are very safe and competent drivers and very good at passing on their abilities.
People come to the groups for many different reasons, often people have been driving for many years without any accidents and assume they are good drivers but have slipped into some bad habits. It is a thankless task to point out faults and bad habits hopefully in a constructive way. People tend to be more receptive if they have come of they're own volition and with an open mind rather than forced or talked into it by their employers or parents. I have found younger drivers tend to over estimate their own ability and are not very accepting of observations (especially if they observer is viewed as an older driver)
Having seem many people come through to advanced driving groups, the standard of driving tends to be quite poor initially and they do benefit from additional training, many people seem to turn up at taster days and assume they are far better drivers than they actual are and never come back after having a few faults pointed out. Like the O/P they feel that pointing out things like exceeding the speed limit and pull/push steering is more like learner driving than advanced driving. However these faults need to be corrected prior to moving on. (more than a couple of very minor speeding transgressions will result in a fail on the advanced test.)
The IAM/ROSPA test is never going to turn you into a police advanced driver, Police drivers have 7 to 8 weeks of intensive driving courses to do and have exceptions to things like speed limits, and driving at high speeds really hones your driving at the speed limits.
From a person point of view when I first attended an advanced driving group, I was initially regarded with suspicion, as the people running the groups tend to be very protective of it and in my opinion aren't very open to new ideas. My view is that as driver I am always learning and will always take on board constructive criticism, what I have found is that many people within the group get hung up on really minor points and absolutes (cue long winded debates on whether you should ever edge through a red light or cross a solid white line). My view would be, is what you are doing with good reason, thought through and above everything else safe.
The goal of these groups should be to promote safer driving, which on the whole they do, some are better than other and some observer are better than others but don't expect to be taught to drive like Lewis Hamilton as that not what they are there for. They are trying to get people to drive according to the Highway code and they system as taught in Roadcraft. I think that the IAM / ROSPA needs to be more welcoming of people with experience of advanced driving (they are after all volunteers giving their time freely).
Like anything some groups are better than others, with varying degrees of abilities within the group, it seems to me that the majority of groups are made up of the slightly older age group and are quite defensive of their driving abilities (if there is one thing I have found it is that people would rather have their children and family criticised than their driving) often they are very safe and competent drivers and very good at passing on their abilities.
People come to the groups for many different reasons, often people have been driving for many years without any accidents and assume they are good drivers but have slipped into some bad habits. It is a thankless task to point out faults and bad habits hopefully in a constructive way. People tend to be more receptive if they have come of they're own volition and with an open mind rather than forced or talked into it by their employers or parents. I have found younger drivers tend to over estimate their own ability and are not very accepting of observations (especially if they observer is viewed as an older driver)
Having seem many people come through to advanced driving groups, the standard of driving tends to be quite poor initially and they do benefit from additional training, many people seem to turn up at taster days and assume they are far better drivers than they actual are and never come back after having a few faults pointed out. Like the O/P they feel that pointing out things like exceeding the speed limit and pull/push steering is more like learner driving than advanced driving. However these faults need to be corrected prior to moving on. (more than a couple of very minor speeding transgressions will result in a fail on the advanced test.)
The IAM/ROSPA test is never going to turn you into a police advanced driver, Police drivers have 7 to 8 weeks of intensive driving courses to do and have exceptions to things like speed limits, and driving at high speeds really hones your driving at the speed limits.
From a person point of view when I first attended an advanced driving group, I was initially regarded with suspicion, as the people running the groups tend to be very protective of it and in my opinion aren't very open to new ideas. My view is that as driver I am always learning and will always take on board constructive criticism, what I have found is that many people within the group get hung up on really minor points and absolutes (cue long winded debates on whether you should ever edge through a red light or cross a solid white line). My view would be, is what you are doing with good reason, thought through and above everything else safe.
The goal of these groups should be to promote safer driving, which on the whole they do, some are better than other and some observer are better than others but don't expect to be taught to drive like Lewis Hamilton as that not what they are there for. They are trying to get people to drive according to the Highway code and they system as taught in Roadcraft. I think that the IAM / ROSPA needs to be more welcoming of people with experience of advanced driving (they are after all volunteers giving their time freely).
Hogstar said:
.
People tend to be more receptive if they have come of they're own volition and with an open mind rather than forced or talked into it by their employers or parents.
You are almost certainly correct, but I’m not sure this is a useful observation. Most people have little knowledge of and no interest in IAM or ROADAR. If an employer initiative introduces some more people to the concept of Advanced Driving, this can surely only be a good thing?People tend to be more receptive if they have come of they're own volition and with an open mind rather than forced or talked into it by their employers or parents.
As mentioned before, I still take my test every three years following a day of work required training 20 or so years ago. I like to think that this keeps my driving at a reasonable standard, and, more to the point makes me safer on the road.
I don’t see why ROSPA members such as myself, who are demonstrably capable of passing the tests, seem such an irritation to the ‘groups’ and ‘observers’.
Foss62 said:
You are almost certainly correct, but I’m not sure this is a useful observation...
I don’t see why ROSPA members such as myself, who are demonstrably capable of passing the tests, seem such an irritation to the ‘groups’ and ‘observers’.
You aren’t.I don’t see why ROSPA members such as myself, who are demonstrably capable of passing the tests, seem such an irritation to the ‘groups’ and ‘observers’.
But, if you were a RoSPA/IAM tutor/observer who had been allocated non-motivated associates you would perhaps understand.
Seriously though, nobody is suggesting that introducing advanced driving to as many people as possible is a bad thing. What I, and others, are questioning is how an employer should go about achieving this objective given the limited time available to the employee during working hours. My own view is that in general these short courses are best delivered by fleet trainers who are competent, and well practised, in homing in on, and dealing with, the essential driving issues pertaining to a particular employee rather than trying to deliver a full-blown RoSPA/IAM style advanced driving course in the short time available.
If the employee is sufficiently enthused, inspired and encouraged to then go and sign up for a full-length course then that would be great. But, it’s never going to be a significant number that will be sufficiently enthused, unfortunately.
kiethton said:
From what I've heard the IAM can vary hugely depending on what assessor you get and what group you join.
I found this to be the case as well. There's a fine line between being particular about how something is done and being pedantic to the point it seems pointless. The pull-push steering, I can absolutely appreciate but do you need to demonstrate it when parking at walking pace? I recall some chap who took me for an observed drive, he supposedly had every advanced driving qualification a civilian can obtain. He proceeded to park his car into a space, very slowly and precisely whilst feeding the wheel. He also did it so slowly whilst feathering the clutch that the whole car stank like burning clutch as he finished talking to me.
Don't get me wrong, there's many great things I learned from the IAM but I do think you have to learn from it and apply it driving rather than be completely rigid about it.
Alex_225 said:
Don't get me wrong, there's many great things I learned from the IAM but I do think you have to learn from it and apply it driving rather than be completely rigid about it.
It is a bit like going to a Billy Graham concert and getting hooked on the speaking in tongues stuff! You can take his preaching to the literal word and live and eventually die by it...or you can just take the essential bit like dont sleep with your neighbours wife after shooting your neighbour.
Sorry for my disappearance, work packed me off to Korea (now there is a country in dire need of advanced driver training...) for 3 weeks, and I subsequently forgot to update this thread.
I passed my advanced test, getting mediocre but satisfactory scores (mostly 2s with a few 1s).
I don't think I learned anything that I wasn't doing already, however it did act as a reminder of some of the things that I admit I had started to neglect, such as the importance of looking as far ahead as possible rather than just a few cars in front, and that the signage and road marking system in the UK is, on the whole, brilliant (though this is as much from driving in Korea as it is from doing the IAM course).
I do think, however, that the short course cheapens the advanced qualification. I'd have a much more positive view of the IAM system if I had spent more time within it, actually learning and absorbing the value of what I was being taught, so that it becomes a natural part of the way I drive rather than a conscious effort to do so (and therefore taking my concentration off what I am doing and making me a worse driver in the short term).
From my very brief experience, I would have preferred what I did to be considered a safe/competent/good driver qualification rather than 'advanced'.
I passed my advanced test, getting mediocre but satisfactory scores (mostly 2s with a few 1s).
I don't think I learned anything that I wasn't doing already, however it did act as a reminder of some of the things that I admit I had started to neglect, such as the importance of looking as far ahead as possible rather than just a few cars in front, and that the signage and road marking system in the UK is, on the whole, brilliant (though this is as much from driving in Korea as it is from doing the IAM course).
I do think, however, that the short course cheapens the advanced qualification. I'd have a much more positive view of the IAM system if I had spent more time within it, actually learning and absorbing the value of what I was being taught, so that it becomes a natural part of the way I drive rather than a conscious effort to do so (and therefore taking my concentration off what I am doing and making me a worse driver in the short term).
From my very brief experience, I would have preferred what I did to be considered a safe/competent/good driver qualification rather than 'advanced'.
your points are good - though perhaps worth considering whether a short course is better than none?
does the short course provide a clear encouragement to do more with IAM? If so, then it serves a purpose...
as for labels - agreed, Advanced Driving is a weird description at the best of times however it is well known and difficult to replace!
does the short course provide a clear encouragement to do more with IAM? If so, then it serves a purpose...
as for labels - agreed, Advanced Driving is a weird description at the best of times however it is well known and difficult to replace!
akirk said:
your points are good - though perhaps worth considering whether a short course is better than none?
does the short course provide a clear encouragement to do more with IAM? If so, then it serves a purpose...
as for labels - agreed, Advanced Driving is a weird description at the best of times however it is well known and difficult to replace!
The point is that the advanced driving test came first, and was so called because it was a step up from the ordinary test, an A level in driving so to speak. A perfectly reasonable relative term in that context. So naturally training towards that test became known as 'advanced training' because 'training towards the advanced as opposed to the DSA test' would be a bit of a mouthful. does the short course provide a clear encouragement to do more with IAM? If so, then it serves a purpose...
as for labels - agreed, Advanced Driving is a weird description at the best of times however it is well known and difficult to replace!
It's just unfortunate that the term has become used to mean anything above pass plus, or to imply that an IAM pass is 'advanced' in absolute terms. Perhaps it cold be renamed the 'intermediate driving test'?
One thing that struck me was whether the topic of improving driving capabilities would be better served by some continuous personal development type programmes. Is there a 'modern' approach to education that might help or be appropriate?
Bert
Bert
Edited by BertBert on Tuesday 1st October 23:31
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff