Men and overtaking
Discussion
nonsequitur said:
I'm always concerned when others go into great detail about why they are not indicating, but an actual indication takes less than a split second. Yes, that fast to let others know your next move.
Are you implying that the reason many of us do not always indicate is to save the split second? If so, wrong and insulting. The traditional advanced teaching has been to always consider each feature of 'The System' - and considering whether an indication will be useful may take rather longer than your split second. Adopting the approach of always considering whether a signal will be useful helps a driver develop from the typical experienced driver who drives on autopilot to an Advanced Driver who observes, anticipates and plans before acting.
CH has argued persuasively that considering instead whether a signal could be misleading (and signalling if not) has the same benefit.
We've had so many threads on this topic over the years and it seems to me that people fall into three camps:
1) Always indicate.
2) Always indicate, unless it could mislead someone you've observed.
3) Only indicate to people you've observed who need to know, unless it could mislead.
My problem with 1 is it fails to take account of 2. Signals can mislead.
My problem with 3 is it assumes a driver's observation is perfect, which in my opinion it clearly isn't, so in this sense, indicating is a safety net. It also assumes the driver realises fully the breadth of road users and situations they need to signal for, which a significant number of people don't. The most common example is joining a motorway: some people say it's inevitable you're joining so you don't need to signal, but what if the slip road doesn't end, but becomes a lane? They simply haven't thought about it enough. The other example is people who don't think they need to signal to road users who aren't in cars, such as pedestrians or horse riders, which is obviously nonsense, and as a runner who averages an hour a day on the roads I find this extremely annoying.
Therefore I am in camp 2. This will pay dividends the day I signal before an overtake and the biker sat in my right rear blind spot, who I haven't seen, decides against overtaking because of my signal.
Finally, let's not forget that merely having this conversation puts us in a vanishingly small number of drivers. The vast majority of drivers that I see indicate as they turn ("turndicating"), which is obviously pointless and ridiculous.
1) Always indicate.
2) Always indicate, unless it could mislead someone you've observed.
3) Only indicate to people you've observed who need to know, unless it could mislead.
My problem with 1 is it fails to take account of 2. Signals can mislead.
My problem with 3 is it assumes a driver's observation is perfect, which in my opinion it clearly isn't, so in this sense, indicating is a safety net. It also assumes the driver realises fully the breadth of road users and situations they need to signal for, which a significant number of people don't. The most common example is joining a motorway: some people say it's inevitable you're joining so you don't need to signal, but what if the slip road doesn't end, but becomes a lane? They simply haven't thought about it enough. The other example is people who don't think they need to signal to road users who aren't in cars, such as pedestrians or horse riders, which is obviously nonsense, and as a runner who averages an hour a day on the roads I find this extremely annoying.
Therefore I am in camp 2. This will pay dividends the day I signal before an overtake and the biker sat in my right rear blind spot, who I haven't seen, decides against overtaking because of my signal.
Finally, let's not forget that merely having this conversation puts us in a vanishingly small number of drivers. The vast majority of drivers that I see indicate as they turn ("turndicating"), which is obviously pointless and ridiculous.
RobM77 said:
We've had so many threads on this topic over the years and it seems to me that people fall into three camps:
1) Always indicate.
2) Always indicate, unless it could mislead someone you've observed.
3) Only indicate to people you've observed who need to know, unless it could mislead.
My problem with 1 is it fails to take account of 2. Signals can mislead.
My problem with 3 is it assumes a driver's observation is perfect, which in my opinion it clearly isn't, so in this sense, indicating is a safety net. It also assumes the driver realises fully the breadth of road users and situations they need to signal for, which a significant number of people don't. The most common example is joining a motorway: some people say it's inevitable you're joining so you don't need to signal, but what if the slip road doesn't end, but becomes a lane? They simply haven't thought about it enough. The other example is people who don't think they need to signal to road users who aren't in cars, such as pedestrians or horse riders, which is obviously nonsense, and as a runner who averages an hour a day on the roads I find this extremely annoying.
Therefore I am in camp 2. This will pay dividends the day I signal before an overtake and the biker sat in my right rear blind spot, who I haven't seen, decides against overtaking because of my signal.
Finally, let's not forget that merely having this conversation puts us in a vanishingly small number of drivers. The vast majority of drivers that I see indicate as they turn ("turndicating"), which is obviously pointless and ridiculous.
I'm camp 2 in the car, and camp 3 on the bicycle. Simply because indicating on a bicycle reduces control, both in terms of turning and reducing braking capacity. So I'll only indicate if there's somebody who could manifestly benefit from that signal. Although that might include a driver behind when turning left, just to discourage them overtaking me across the junction.1) Always indicate.
2) Always indicate, unless it could mislead someone you've observed.
3) Only indicate to people you've observed who need to know, unless it could mislead.
My problem with 1 is it fails to take account of 2. Signals can mislead.
My problem with 3 is it assumes a driver's observation is perfect, which in my opinion it clearly isn't, so in this sense, indicating is a safety net. It also assumes the driver realises fully the breadth of road users and situations they need to signal for, which a significant number of people don't. The most common example is joining a motorway: some people say it's inevitable you're joining so you don't need to signal, but what if the slip road doesn't end, but becomes a lane? They simply haven't thought about it enough. The other example is people who don't think they need to signal to road users who aren't in cars, such as pedestrians or horse riders, which is obviously nonsense, and as a runner who averages an hour a day on the roads I find this extremely annoying.
Therefore I am in camp 2. This will pay dividends the day I signal before an overtake and the biker sat in my right rear blind spot, who I haven't seen, decides against overtaking because of my signal.
Finally, let's not forget that merely having this conversation puts us in a vanishingly small number of drivers. The vast majority of drivers that I see indicate as they turn ("turndicating"), which is obviously pointless and ridiculous.
Salted_Peanut said:
Well said RobM77 - excellent summary 
And I'm a defector! I was trained to be in Camp 3, but defected to Camp 2 for ideological reasons
Thanks. Yes, I've had several days of advanced tuition now and they've always taught Camp 3. I personally think that's nonsense though, because nobody's observation is perfect, so am in Camp 2 as well. The only disadvantage of Camp 2 is that you might mislead someone you haven't seen, but given the alternative is not indicating to that unseen person at all, I think the former situation is preferable.And I'm a defector! I was trained to be in Camp 3, but defected to Camp 2 for ideological reasons
RobM77 said:
Salted_Peanut said:
Well said RobM77 - excellent summary
And I'm a defector! I was trained to be in Camp 3, but defected to Camp 2 for ideological reasons
Thanks. Yes, I've had several days of advanced tuition now and they've always taught Camp 3. I personally think that's nonsense though, because nobody's observation is perfect, so am in Camp 2 as well. The only disadvantage of Camp 2 is that you might mislead someone you haven't seen, but given the alternative is not indicating to that unseen person at all, I think the former situation is preferable.And I'm a defector! I was trained to be in Camp 3, but defected to Camp 2 for ideological reasons
(I'm firmly Camp 1. Taught like that from the start, late 1960's, by my father and my instructor. 'Let them know what you are doing next for f***s sake'. Or words to that effect.) But it's not robotic, thought applied.
nonsequitur said:
Sorry Rob, how can you mislead someone you haven't seen?
Quite easily. If you signal your intentions to do A, but someone else thinks it means you're doing B, then it's misleading. That person may be seen or unseen by you.nonsequitur said:
(I'm firmly Camp 1. Taught like that from the start, late 1960's, by my father and my instructor. 'Let them know what you are doing next for f***s sake'. Or words to that effect.) But it's not robotic, thought applied.
I believe you can demonstrate use of signals as communication by the timing of your signal (e.g. matching it with a road sign, matching it with a change of speed, delaying it until after a junction beforehand etc).I’ve always had interesting chats with ROSPA folk, as too many think that a GOLD pass is the highest level of driving humanly achievable.
If a Gold pass driver doesn’t indicate, it means there was nobody to benefit. FACT!
Even hinting there might be something unseen, is heresy!
Some of them are like flat earthers, in their doggedly held beliefs
I think almost all advanced road driver training, (that I know of) is actually dumbed down driving, designed to be replicatable, then learned by even the most disinterested ham fisted individuals.
Thus creating above all else, predictable drivers that are looking where they’re going and thinking out their actions.
I admit that would make driving in the UK like a dream, if everyone adopted a ‘System’
I do understand the benefits and have capitalised on them and amended some of my bad habits as a result.
As actual driving goes though, it’s just the beginning, much like the driving test.
Option 2 for me. It’s safest and I’ll explain why....
To adequately and 100% accurately asses there is nobody to see, or benefit from a signal, requires several full mirror checks, plus full physical 360deg vision. So lots of shoulder checks on both sides.
You can’t rely on experience gained either, as random things are random.
This all takes far too long, like a driving tester, checking 360 before requesting an emergency stop.
Far too much time not looking where you’re going!
Check mirrors twice, shoulder check and indicate. This is as thorough as it’s reasonably practical to be.
It’s predictable overtaking behaviour, that other drivers will see and understand. Seeing and understanding is the most important thing you need from other road users.
Cases I’ve noticed for indicating to overtake.....
If we all do this, the day an imperfect driver thinks a pass is on, when one of us is already alongside and committed, we get to see the signal and can sound the horn. I’ve had this happen at night, when the indication was very noticeable indeed alongside my nearside.
The other driver panicked and swerved violently left, not hitting me.
I’d have not noticed so quickly had they not indicated. Perhaps 1/2 second is all that’s needed to save the day?
I’m sure they thought they were way above average as a driver.
I see oncoming cars overtaking way sooner/better when they indicate. I get more time to decide if I need to modify my course of action / consider slowing, or an escape route.
On long straight roads, I can see an indication from a very long way ahead.
In the dark I’d most likely not be able to tell quite what was going on so far away.
I want this info, as I can now expect other oncoming cars to make similar overtake manoeuvres, possibly nearer be, which could be a concern.
I can then plan ahead for this likely outcome.
In hot weather, there is sometimes a heat shimmer over a road, so indicating helps massively, from a long way forward, back.
If others indicate ahead in my direction of travel, even if I’m behind them a fair way and they’ve not seem me, I like this.
I can tell the road most likely opens up and will be offering me an opportunity to asses.
I’me sure there are plenty of other situations, where the driver, however advanced, would not be able to tell if their lack of signalling could be a hinderance, or even cause danger.
I know we’re all brilliant on here, but others might not be. When those ‘other people’ overtake, I want them to be indicating.
So as I know I’m far from perfect, I’m happy to afford you these benefits.
(Bored C19 ramble again sorry)
If a Gold pass driver doesn’t indicate, it means there was nobody to benefit. FACT!
Even hinting there might be something unseen, is heresy!
Some of them are like flat earthers, in their doggedly held beliefs
I think almost all advanced road driver training, (that I know of) is actually dumbed down driving, designed to be replicatable, then learned by even the most disinterested ham fisted individuals.
Thus creating above all else, predictable drivers that are looking where they’re going and thinking out their actions.
I admit that would make driving in the UK like a dream, if everyone adopted a ‘System’
I do understand the benefits and have capitalised on them and amended some of my bad habits as a result.
As actual driving goes though, it’s just the beginning, much like the driving test.
Option 2 for me. It’s safest and I’ll explain why....
To adequately and 100% accurately asses there is nobody to see, or benefit from a signal, requires several full mirror checks, plus full physical 360deg vision. So lots of shoulder checks on both sides.
You can’t rely on experience gained either, as random things are random.
This all takes far too long, like a driving tester, checking 360 before requesting an emergency stop.
Far too much time not looking where you’re going!
Check mirrors twice, shoulder check and indicate. This is as thorough as it’s reasonably practical to be.
It’s predictable overtaking behaviour, that other drivers will see and understand. Seeing and understanding is the most important thing you need from other road users.
Cases I’ve noticed for indicating to overtake.....
If we all do this, the day an imperfect driver thinks a pass is on, when one of us is already alongside and committed, we get to see the signal and can sound the horn. I’ve had this happen at night, when the indication was very noticeable indeed alongside my nearside.
The other driver panicked and swerved violently left, not hitting me.
I’d have not noticed so quickly had they not indicated. Perhaps 1/2 second is all that’s needed to save the day?
I’m sure they thought they were way above average as a driver.
I see oncoming cars overtaking way sooner/better when they indicate. I get more time to decide if I need to modify my course of action / consider slowing, or an escape route.
On long straight roads, I can see an indication from a very long way ahead.
In the dark I’d most likely not be able to tell quite what was going on so far away.
I want this info, as I can now expect other oncoming cars to make similar overtake manoeuvres, possibly nearer be, which could be a concern.
I can then plan ahead for this likely outcome.
In hot weather, there is sometimes a heat shimmer over a road, so indicating helps massively, from a long way forward, back.
If others indicate ahead in my direction of travel, even if I’m behind them a fair way and they’ve not seem me, I like this.
I can tell the road most likely opens up and will be offering me an opportunity to asses.
I’me sure there are plenty of other situations, where the driver, however advanced, would not be able to tell if their lack of signalling could be a hinderance, or even cause danger.
I know we’re all brilliant on here, but others might not be. When those ‘other people’ overtake, I want them to be indicating.
So as I know I’m far from perfect, I’m happy to afford you these benefits.
(Bored C19 ramble again sorry)
The thing that really pisses me off is Mr 40mph everywhere. In a national in a 30, in a 50 it doesn't matter. I followed a police car thru' a national limit on a country road, doing 40, why? Anyway found a decent overtaking spot and 'made progress'. Came to a 30 and he caught me up! I was expecting lights on flashy flashy and a talking to by some kid in an ill fitting uniform but no, he stayed on my bumper until the GLF sign.
I put my foot down and he disappeared into the distance, until we came to another 30, where he caught up again WTAF is that all about?
Just spotted my post count, obviously too busy driving to be posting on forums
I actually am more active on several MX-5 forums, just. recovered the large expanse of plastic on my dash with alcantara, rather than paying £350 plus for one.
I put my foot down and he disappeared into the distance, until we came to another 30, where he caught up again WTAF is that all about?
Just spotted my post count, obviously too busy driving to be posting on forums
I actually am more active on several MX-5 forums, just. recovered the large expanse of plastic on my dash with alcantara, rather than paying £350 plus for one.
Edited by Shadgrind on Monday 8th June 08:46
Shadgrind said:
The thing that really pisses me off is Mr 40mph everywhere. In a national in a 30, in a 50 it doesn't matter. I followed a police car thru' a national limit on a country road, doing 40, why? Anyway found a decent overtaking spot and 'made progress'. Came to a 30 and he caught me up! I was expecting lights on flashy flashy and a talking to by some kid in an ill fitting uniform but no, he stayed on my bumper until the GLF sign.
I put my foot down and he disappeared into the distance, until we came to another 30, where he caught up again WTAF is that all about?
I put my foot down and he disappeared into the distance, until we came to another 30, where he caught up again WTAF is that all about?
I get this too. I also get the same thing with wide open stretches of NSL, where 60mph is perfectly safe, and then you come to a section where <40mph is safe, such as around houses, a church on a Sunday morning, blind bends, a damp section under trees with blind bends etc; and that bumbler comes up behind me at 40mph and tailgates me.Shadgrind said:
I followed a police car thru' a national limit on a country road, doing 40, why?
I don't mind when people do 40 on an NSL road, because they're giving me the opportunity to overtake. It's more annoying being stuck behind a queue of traffic behind a 40-driver, because it seems I am the only one willing to overtake. So many drivers just sit behind like sheep.But in the case of a police car, did it occur to you that police might have something else to do other than just getting from A to B? They may be surveying the area for an abandoned car or a missing person or just wanting to keep an eye out for anything unusual. That sort of thing is best done at a slower speed.
LunarOne said:
Shadgrind said:
I followed a police car thru' a national limit on a country road, doing 40, why?
I don't mind when people do 40 on an NSL road, because they're giving me the opportunity to overtake. It's more annoying being stuck behind a queue of traffic behind a 40-driver, because it seems I am the only one willing to overtake. So many drivers just sit behind like sheep.But in the case of a police car, did it occur to you that police might have something else to do other than just getting from A to B? They may be surveying the area for an abandoned car or a missing person or just wanting to keep an eye out for anything unusual. That sort of thing is best done at a slower speed.
It's a limit, not a target. There are loads of reasons why someone might choose to go slowly; literally too many to even start listing. This is why overtaking is allowed.RobM77 said:
It's a limit, not a target. There are loads of reasons why someone might choose to go slowly; literally too many to even start listing. This is why overtaking is allowed.- despite being well below the speed limit for the majority of the time and just touching it at other times. It appears that the majority of drivers have absolutely no idea what is meant by National Speed Limit, nor when it applies. They don't know what those white roundels with the diagonal black line signify, and they have no idea that it's different for different kinds of vehicles. That probably explains 95% of the drive everywhere at 40 brigade.
66mpg said:
I hunk the point that Shadgrind is making is that having overtaken the police car in the 50 zone it should not have caught up to him in the 30 zone unless it had exceeded the speed limit there.
Exactly! They caught up to me in a 30, I was doing bang on 30, how did they catch me, in the NSL I was doing at least 60, maybe a tad more, there is no way they could have caught me without braking the 30 by some margin!I lose count of the amount of times I make a perfectly safe overtake to pass someone who then flashes as I move in front, or speeds up as I try to start the overtake.
Usually on a 60 NSA road, I do a lot of driving on single carriage A roads at weekends and find that a heck of a lot of people do not really drive at 60 when it is perfectly safe to do so, these are Fen roads, long and straight and I know them well.
Not quite sure why people feel the need to do these things, I almost think it is because they like having a clear road ahead and never, ever look in their mirrors, or maybe even enjoy having a queue behind, and obviously don't care.
Usually on a 60 NSA road, I do a lot of driving on single carriage A roads at weekends and find that a heck of a lot of people do not really drive at 60 when it is perfectly safe to do so, these are Fen roads, long and straight and I know them well.
Not quite sure why people feel the need to do these things, I almost think it is because they like having a clear road ahead and never, ever look in their mirrors, or maybe even enjoy having a queue behind, and obviously don't care.
LukeBrown66 said:
Not quite sure why people feel the need to do these things, I almost think it is because they like having a clear road ahead and never, ever look in their mirrors, or maybe even enjoy having a queue behind, and obviously don't care.
Because a vast number of drivers have no idea what the words "national speed limit" mean. They assume that any single carriageway road has a 40mph limit. In fact there are vast numbers of people who seem to believe that all roads should be driven at 40mph. And many of these people also believe that overtaking is a reckless, not to mention illegal, action.Human nature being what it is, our view is always the right one. Whether it's arrogance, ignorance, selfishness or whatever, everyone's opinion is the right opinion.
So if I've chosen to drive a particular stretch of road at X mph then that's 'the right speed' for the road! Anyone attempting to overtake is going to incur my wrath and I'll damn well teach then a lesson (not really me of course
) Likewise if I catch up with someone driving slower then they need get a move on or get the hell out of my way because they are not driving at 'the right speed' for the conditions. Now, if you believe we, as a society are becoming more arrogant, selfish or (given the lack of knowledge we should all know when we learned to drive) ignorant then perhaps you can understand the problem.
Personally, one important piece of information I try to gain when considering an overtake is anticipating the sort of driver I am dealing with in front.
So if I've chosen to drive a particular stretch of road at X mph then that's 'the right speed' for the road! Anyone attempting to overtake is going to incur my wrath and I'll damn well teach then a lesson (not really me of course
) Likewise if I catch up with someone driving slower then they need get a move on or get the hell out of my way because they are not driving at 'the right speed' for the conditions. Now, if you believe we, as a society are becoming more arrogant, selfish or (given the lack of knowledge we should all know when we learned to drive) ignorant then perhaps you can understand the problem. Personally, one important piece of information I try to gain when considering an overtake is anticipating the sort of driver I am dealing with in front.
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