Signalling and Lane Assist
Discussion
Wooda80 said:
The thing that alarmed me with Lane Keep Assist was pulling out to overtake a cyclist without signalling.
Naturally there would be enough space left not to actually connect with the cyclist, but as the car 'corrects' itself it feels like might look as if you are trying to swipe him
I understand what you are saying.....but pulling out to overtake a cyclist should be no different than pulling out to overtake a car. Naturally there would be enough space left not to actually connect with the cyclist, but as the car 'corrects' itself it feels like might look as if you are trying to swipe him
Ron240 said:
Wooda80 said:
The thing that alarmed me with Lane Keep Assist was pulling out to overtake a cyclist without signalling.
Naturally there would be enough space left not to actually connect with the cyclist, but as the car 'corrects' itself it feels like might look as if you are trying to swipe him
I understand what you are saying.....but pulling out to overtake a cyclist should be no different than pulling out to overtake a car. Naturally there would be enough space left not to actually connect with the cyclist, but as the car 'corrects' itself it feels like might look as if you are trying to swipe him
As some nutter on an R1 can be on you in milliseconds, just always indicate to pull out in case you have missed something.
Unless yo are going for an Advanced Driving examination of course, where it would be deemed that you had an incomplete picture of other users around you if you indicate to an empty road.
Also you should ideally completely cross to the other lane to overtake a vulnerable road user, as they say - pretend its the size of a small car, and the newer advice for people who couldn’t work out what they meant, a minimum of 1.5M from them - their offside edge, not the centre, as apparently that wasn’t plain enough either.
Finally if you hold the wheel correctly its a simple matter to override the warning and the car must also be fitted with a visual warning that it is working for those who dont RTFM. If its fitted, always signal.
Unless yo are going for an Advanced Driving examination of course, where it would be deemed that you had an incomplete picture of other users around you if you indicate to an empty road.
Also you should ideally completely cross to the other lane to overtake a vulnerable road user, as they say - pretend its the size of a small car, and the newer advice for people who couldn’t work out what they meant, a minimum of 1.5M from them - their offside edge, not the centre, as apparently that wasn’t plain enough either.
Finally if you hold the wheel correctly its a simple matter to override the warning and the car must also be fitted with a visual warning that it is working for those who dont RTFM. If its fitted, always signal.
Could I add a couple of pennies worth in overtaking cyclists...?
Look at on coming vehicles....can you get back in front of cyclist before on coming traffic without cutting in?
Is there another oncoming cyclist?....if shadows across road, could hide them?
Look at road surface in front of cyclist....is there a pot hole or a "patch" in front of cyclist that he/she may swerve around...hence keep a decent gap. Many patches are a different shade of colour to road surface
Are you approaching a junction? will the cyclist not look?, and not signal?, and just move out?
When you are approaching a cyclist if the wind is in his ears, he may not know you are there waiting to overtake. If strong cross wind if it gusts either way cyclist may have to compensate
Be in the correct gear for speed to be able to accelerate fast around cyclist, the amount of times I hear cars changing gear along side me is staggering, with on coming traffic as well l
If speed limit is low enough it could take you a couple of corners or 15-20 seconds to get a safe gap...be patient we have all done overtakes we are not proud of....
Just a couple or few things to think about....
Look at on coming vehicles....can you get back in front of cyclist before on coming traffic without cutting in?
Is there another oncoming cyclist?....if shadows across road, could hide them?
Look at road surface in front of cyclist....is there a pot hole or a "patch" in front of cyclist that he/she may swerve around...hence keep a decent gap. Many patches are a different shade of colour to road surface
Are you approaching a junction? will the cyclist not look?, and not signal?, and just move out?
When you are approaching a cyclist if the wind is in his ears, he may not know you are there waiting to overtake. If strong cross wind if it gusts either way cyclist may have to compensate
Be in the correct gear for speed to be able to accelerate fast around cyclist, the amount of times I hear cars changing gear along side me is staggering, with on coming traffic as well l
If speed limit is low enough it could take you a couple of corners or 15-20 seconds to get a safe gap...be patient we have all done overtakes we are not proud of....
Just a couple or few things to think about....
bad company said:
If you’re pulling out to overtake a cyclist and there’s no other traffic around should you have to indicate?
No you shouldn't, and neither is there a necessity to do so given the appropriate qualifying criteria when overtaking a car. My point was based on the space you give to a cyclist while passing should be the same as you give another car.
I said in an earlier post that this technology effectively forces drivers to behave like they are on their driving test at all times.
Edited by Ron240 on Wednesday 17th June 14:46
Ron240 said:
bad company said:
If you’re pulling out to overtake a cyclist and there’s no other traffic around should you have to indicate?
No you shouldn't, and neither is there a necessity to do so given the appropriate qualifying criteria when overtaking a car. My point was based on the space you give to a cyclist while passing should be the same as you give another car.
I said in an earlier post that this technology effectively forces drivers to behave like they are on their driving test at all times.
Edited by Ron240 on Wednesday 17th June 14:46
Ron240 said:
I said in an earlier post that this technology effectively forces drivers to behave like they are on their driving test at all times.
Correction: it forces drivers to act as though they’ve not looked properly so don’t know if there’s anything else to signal to. Which seems to be the case for large numbers of drivers. Edited by Ron240 on Wednesday 17th June 14:46
Drivers who are sure enough of their driving talents to be confident that they don’t need to indicate ought to also be competent enough to switch off lane assist if they don’t like it.
MrTrilby said:
Correction: it forces drivers to act as though they’ve not looked properly so don’t know if there’s anything else to signal to. Which seems to be the case for large numbers of drivers.
Drivers who are sure enough of their driving talents to be confident that they don’t need to indicate ought to also be competent enough to switch off lane assist if they don’t like it.
Your post made no correction to mine. Drivers who are sure enough of their driving talents to be confident that they don’t need to indicate ought to also be competent enough to switch off lane assist if they don’t like it.
Have you ever heard of the phrase Mirror - Signal - Manoeuvre?
This comes from the Highway Code and must be followed at all times while on a driving test.
This section is about Advanced Driving so we know that signaling is not always necessary.
Rozzers said:
Unless yo are going for an Advanced Driving examination of course, where it would be deemed that you had an incomplete picture of other users around you if you indicate to an empty road.
This crap is precisely the reason I didn't renew my IAM membership... Practicing road craft (lower case) is a good thing, but unfortunately many who regard themselves as advanced drivers merely replace one set of rules with another to make themselves feel superior... No consideration to the fact that no driver (including IAM) is infallible. Not sure if that was the fault of the IAM or simply the sort of people it attracts.However certain you are that there is no other road user that can obtain useful information from your indication, it's still an assumption and you could be wrong. It takes fewer mental cycles to automatically indicate than to decide whether to indicate, however aware you think you are of the road conditions. Even in the case of overtaking a cyclist (who probably has no rear view mirrors), the cyclist may look over their shoulder at any moment to determine if it's safe for them to avoid a pothole they've just noticed. That indication of yours could be critical to their next actions.
AB124M said:
....... It takes fewer mental cycles to automatically indicate than to decide whether to indicate, however aware you think you are of the road conditions. .....
That is precisely the argument for selective signalling, only signalling where useful to do so. The IAM wants drivers to change from driving on autopilot to a more conscious process of Concentration Observation and Anticipation as a basis for planning and acting.AB124M said:
the cyclist may look over their shoulder at any moment to determine if it's safe for them to avoid a pothole they've just noticed. That indication of yours could be critical to their next actions.
One would hope the driver is well ahead of the cyclist in that regard and has either positioned or adopted a speed appropriate to the cyclist as a hazard which may potentially move.AB124M said:
However certain you are that there is no other road user that can obtain useful information from your indication, it's still an assumption and you could be wrong. It takes fewer mental cycles to automatically indicate than to decide whether to indicate, however aware you think you are of the road conditions. Even in the case of overtaking a cyclist (who probably has no rear view mirrors), the cyclist may look over their shoulder at any moment to determine if it's safe for them to avoid a pothole they've just noticed. That indication of yours could be critical to their next actions.
Technically it should be an observation not an assumption, indicating without observation can also lead to someone assuming you are going to make a turn or manoeuvre that you have no intention of executing. Lane departure warning and correction systems are also a pain in the arse for corning correctly. Take a near side position for a right hander to get a better view and more stable line and the bloodly thing forces you back in to the middle of the lane. Same thing with left handlers when you go out to the centreline. It also fights you trying to kiss the apex.
I have just bought a new Mercedes and it looks like the Active Lane Assist can only be disabled per ignition cycle, the same as Start/Stop.
I had a scary experience with it the other night where my car slammed the brakes on and tried to steer me in a direction I didnt want to go!
I went into the settings and turned it off, but next time i started the engine it was activated again
I have had similar systems with Ford and Honda cars but both could be permanently disabled by the driver.
This is a very bad(and potentially dangerous) implementation of this system by Mercedes.
I had a scary experience with it the other night where my car slammed the brakes on and tried to steer me in a direction I didnt want to go!
I went into the settings and turned it off, but next time i started the engine it was activated again
I have had similar systems with Ford and Honda cars but both could be permanently disabled by the driver.
This is a very bad(and potentially dangerous) implementation of this system by Mercedes.
waremark said:
That is precisely the argument for selective signalling, only signalling where useful to do so. The IAM wants drivers to change from driving on autopilot to a more conscious process of Concentration Observation and Anticipation as a basis for planning and acting.
This is exactly right and I couldn't agree more! I always find it amusing when people say "I indicate out of habit" and claim that it is a good habit.
Ron240 said:
I had a scary experience with it the other night where my car slammed the brakes on and tried to steer me in a direction I didnt want to go!
I went into the settings and turned it off, but next time i started the engine it was activated again
One of my sons has a lot of experience of driving various new Mercs (generally of the sportiest variety). He assures me that you can never turn the auto-braking fully off, even in the most track oriented AMG's. However, he was surprised by the steering comment.I went into the settings and turned it off, but next time i started the engine it was activated again
In my car I think auto braking is turned on but I have never experienced it. Lane-Assist is turned off (and stays off). When turned on it just gives a gentle nudge if you try to cross a lane marking without indicating. I guess that on balance these systems do reduce accidents so reducing insurance costs and we will have to put up with more and more interference with manual control of cars.
waremark said:
In my car I think auto braking is turned on but I have never experienced it. Lane-Assist is turned off (and stays off). When turned on it just gives a gentle nudge if you try to cross a lane marking without indicating. I guess that on balance these systems do reduce accidents so reducing insurance costs and we will have to put up with more and more interference with manual control of cars.
On my car the Active Lane Assist gives a slight vibration of the wheel when crossing lanes just like yours, but when for instance leaving a motorway or dual carriageway onto a slip road my car will apply the brakes to the nearside wheels only together with a much more pronounced vibration through the wheel. The first time it happened was last week coming home from work around midnight on a deserted road and I almost s
t myself!! 
I drive this same road every day but curiously my car will not react like this when it is daylight.
The system can be disabled but is turned on again by default with the next ignition cycle.
Yes I get what you are saying about reducing accidents/insurance(the latter is doubtful though), but there seems to be an ever increasing list of intrusive things the driver needs to turn off to enjoy the experience.
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