First rwd car need tips
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No disrespect to your comment but I was wanting RobXjcoupe to explain himself, that we we would know exactly how he was thinking. 
If the back end steps out on a rwd car it does not have any direct affect on the steering....but the driver will need to give an input of some sort to regain control.
The original post was made in response to a comment that said the steering on a rwd car is not corrupted with power in the way a fwd car would be ie. torque steer.
I agree with this viewpoint so was interested to hear what RobXjcoupe explanation was as to why he said the steering is corrupted with power on a rwd car.
Edited by Ron240 on Saturday 8th August 19:11
jgrewal said:
I lost the back once on a rainy roundabout but a simple correction was fine as I was doing the speed limit.
You want to watch that roundabout, they might reduce the speed limit without you noticing, and then you'll crash if you try to go round at the same speed as before...Since I’ve just picked up a Cayman GTS this evening in the pouring rain and found the limits of adhesion not 2 minutes after when lightly accelerating out of a roundabout...take it very easy. Really f
king easy.
As others have rightly said, treat a powerful rear wheel drive car with respect and unless you’re Chris Harris or of that ilk don’t turn the electronics off. They are there for many reasons, topping that list is to help you not cause serious damage to yourself or anyone else!
I’ll definitely be booking a day or two of driver training, road craft based mind you. If I had the talent to sit the car at 45 degrees through a roundabout I think I’d struggle not to do it from time to time so that right there would be a recipe for disaster.
king easy. As others have rightly said, treat a powerful rear wheel drive car with respect and unless you’re Chris Harris or of that ilk don’t turn the electronics off. They are there for many reasons, topping that list is to help you not cause serious damage to yourself or anyone else!
I’ll definitely be booking a day or two of driver training, road craft based mind you. If I had the talent to sit the car at 45 degrees through a roundabout I think I’d struggle not to do it from time to time so that right there would be a recipe for disaster.
Magnum 475 said:
waremark said:
If you want to drive in the snow get winter tyres
This. BMWs on snow require two things:- decent cold weather tyres
- the correct traction control mode
RTFM! There is a traction control mode for snow on BMWs (on non-M cars it's activated with a short push of the traction control button).
The BMWs that people see in hedges on snowy roads are usually driven by people with bald summer tyres and who don't understand how to switch the traction control system to the correct mode. It's an expensive lack of knowledge.
My understanding is that the BMW DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) is actually comprised of DTC (Dynamic Traction Control) and CBC (Corner Brake Control) but there is only one button.
Normally DSC is fully on.
Quick press of the button, goes to DTC only (use this for snow)
Press and hold, turns everything off. (use this for doughnuts
)I would also say that if you are seeing the TC light coming on frequently, then there is something wrong with either the car or your driving, under normal circumstances you should not have the TC stepping in to help.
Counter-intuitively, it turns out that improving your vehicle handling skills increases the chances of crashing.
The Scandinavians have done loads and loads of research into this phenomenon. And it’s bizarre but true. It transpires that when you increase your handling skills, your confidence rises disproportionately: hence more crashes.
Drivers without enhanced handling skills – it transpires – are more likely to drive within their limits (and crash less often). It’s a finding I didn’t want to hear, having done various race schools on two and four wheels; waremark was right.
It’s not music to my motorcyclist’s ears, but the evidence is compelling. Roadcraft-based training to enhance observation and anticipation – but removing the traditional emphasis on making progress – appears a much better bet for crash reduction.
The Scandinavians have done loads and loads of research into this phenomenon. And it’s bizarre but true. It transpires that when you increase your handling skills, your confidence rises disproportionately: hence more crashes.
Drivers without enhanced handling skills – it transpires – are more likely to drive within their limits (and crash less often). It’s a finding I didn’t want to hear, having done various race schools on two and four wheels; waremark was right.
It’s not music to my motorcyclist’s ears, but the evidence is compelling. Roadcraft-based training to enhance observation and anticipation – but removing the traditional emphasis on making progress – appears a much better bet for crash reduction.
Salted_Peanut said:
Counter-intuitively, it turns out that improving your vehicle handling skills increases the chances of crashing. (waremark is right.)
The Scandinavians have done loads and loads of research into this phenomenon. And it’s bizarre but true. It transpires that when you increase your handling skills, your confidence rises disproportionately: hence more crashes. It’s a finding I didn’t want to hear (having done race schools on two and four wheels).
It’s not music to my motorcyclist’s ears, but the evidence is compelling. Roadcraft-based training to enhance observation and anticipation – but removing the traditional emphasis on making progress – appears a much better bet for crash reduction.
Fun sponge The Scandinavians have done loads and loads of research into this phenomenon. And it’s bizarre but true. It transpires that when you increase your handling skills, your confidence rises disproportionately: hence more crashes. It’s a finding I didn’t want to hear (having done race schools on two and four wheels).
It’s not music to my motorcyclist’s ears, but the evidence is compelling. Roadcraft-based training to enhance observation and anticipation – but removing the traditional emphasis on making progress – appears a much better bet for crash reduction.
waremark said:
gareth h said:
If you’re based anywhere near North Weald, have a chat with Carlimits, they have tuition and a nice big runway to practice on
An excellent plan for fun, but not relevant to keeping out of hedges.I love limit handling for fun 
But the evidence is clear: if you experience losing and regaining control was in a safe environment, then you are significantly more likely to end up in a hedge afterwards.
The Scandis have tried all manner of adjustments to prevent this phenomenon – with many attempts to prevent a disproportionate increase in confidence after training. But to no avail.
And this from someone who’s done his share of track days, race school and dabbled off-road. My risk profile must be through the roof
But the evidence is clear: if you experience losing and regaining control was in a safe environment, then you are significantly more likely to end up in a hedge afterwards.The Scandis have tried all manner of adjustments to prevent this phenomenon – with many attempts to prevent a disproportionate increase in confidence after training. But to no avail.
gareth h said:
Fun sponge
I know And this from someone who’s done his share of track days, race school and dabbled off-road. My risk profile must be through the roof anonymous said:
[redacted]
My understanding is that Hendon no longer use the skid pan - both for the reasons already mentioned and because of the universal fitment of skid control systems. Is that incorrect?By the way, I have had limit handling driving sessions with Don Palmer, Andy Walsh (CarLimits), other UK off road facilities including but not limited to Millbrook, Prodrive, MIRA, Porsche Experience Centre, and Mercedes Benz World (most of them multiple times), and several visits to Sweden for winter driving on snow and ice. Listed like that it sounds as though I should be quite competent at this stuff - or perhaps have a very high risk profile! And I drive powerful (sometimes very powerful) rear wheel drive cars. In spite of all my training and experience at limit handling, it is the Roadcraft training which keeps me relatively safe on the road. I do the limit handling stuff because it is such fun.
Very late to the party here, apologies for this.
Just to quickly mention a superb track day I had last year at the Mercedes Benz World in Woking. Birthday present from the wife, who (unwisely?) decided to sit in the back while I gave it plenty of welly in a 2019 Merc C63S. With over 500 bhp, in the damp. Having just stepped out of a 130 bhp Ford Focus.
Spent a few mins getting familiar with the car, about 20 mins in total on the skid pad, and then some laps around the track. No need to worry about RWD really. As nearly everyone has said, as long as you're sensible, there is no need to be concerned.
Just to quickly mention a superb track day I had last year at the Mercedes Benz World in Woking. Birthday present from the wife, who (unwisely?) decided to sit in the back while I gave it plenty of welly in a 2019 Merc C63S. With over 500 bhp, in the damp. Having just stepped out of a 130 bhp Ford Focus.
Spent a few mins getting familiar with the car, about 20 mins in total on the skid pad, and then some laps around the track. No need to worry about RWD really. As nearly everyone has said, as long as you're sensible, there is no need to be concerned.
Zarco said:
Is it not likely that part of that is because people that want to learn limit handling like driving fast and taking risks?
Indeed. If an advanced driving course teaching such skills was mandated so that every driver had to complete this, then the stats would soon change, I strongly believe that taking an advanced driver training course has saved many people's livesMattylamb said:
Indeed. If an advanced driving course teaching such skills was mandated so that every driver had to complete this, then the stats would soon change, I strongly believe that taking an advanced driver training course has saved many people's lives
No. The Swedes did mandate limit handling training for all. It made things worse and they withdrew it.Learn to handle the car normally before giving it some. Don't bow to peer pressure by friends. Most rwd cars are not death traps, plenty of people drive them without nearly killing themselves within their ability. Make sure your tyres have decent tread, I know many youngsters, myself included would/do scrimp here.
I've had more near death experiences in fwd by driving above my ability and not knowing the car than I have in rwd.
That said, to echo others. Keep esp on and don't floor it mid turn or dump the clutch.
Try and find a supermarket car park late at night and when its wet for some low speed practice to start.
Give it a few months and you'll be much more confident to push things on a bit.
I've had more near death experiences in fwd by driving above my ability and not knowing the car than I have in rwd.
That said, to echo others. Keep esp on and don't floor it mid turn or dump the clutch.
Try and find a supermarket car park late at night and when its wet for some low speed practice to start.
Give it a few months and you'll be much more confident to push things on a bit.
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