Thread Crush - Overtake
Discussion
M4cruiser said:
oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
There are specific road marking which instruct you not to cross over to the other side of the road.If you do not have those markings on a given stretch of road, what does that tell you?
M4cruiser said:
No, not the privileged, the trained.
The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
I have a question for you M4.The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
In your opinion would you feel safer sitting in the passenger seat with someone about to do an overtake
if:
They have just passed their police driver training but were only a few years of having a driving licence
or
They passed their training ten years ago but had an over ten year driving licence and a clean driving record
I only ask because some of your posts are a little fringe, but understanding why you post the way you do probably has a lot to do with what type of learner you are, and more importantly what type of learning you value.
Your posts seem to give no weight to socratic or heuristic learning, and everything to didatic. Its a very military, and ordered and I would be fascinated in your background.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You make a few assumptions about the oncoming driver and call him an idiot.Could the driver have beeped because, when he first saw you, you were driving on the other side of the road into his path?
You assume they beeped because the thought you were travelling too fast. Your wife agreed with them. Are they both wrong?
Making good progress is a great thing in the right circumstances but if you frequently get this kind of reaction then maybe its worth considering modifying your driving style to avoid alarming others.
M4cruiser said:
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, !
But you're posting things as if they are facts (like that there is a secret police version of Roadcraft with different rules) which are not true, so you should probably expect to be shot down at least a bit. julian64 said:
M4cruiser said:
No, not the privileged, the trained.
The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
I have a question for you M4.The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
In your opinion would you feel safer sitting in the passenger seat with someone about to do an overtake
if:
They have just passed their police driver training but were only a few years of having a driving licence
or
They passed their training ten years ago but had an over ten year driving licence and a clean driving record
I only ask because some of your posts are a little fringe, but understanding why you post the way you do probably has a lot to do with what type of learner you are, and more importantly what type of learning you value.
Your posts seem to give no weight to socratic or heuristic learning, and everything to didatic. Its a very military, and ordered and I would be fascinated in your background.
... if only I could understand the questions better ... so it may take a few posts to get to the essence of it.
I see that you have thousands more posts than me, so maybe you understand this Forum better, but those levels are clearly displayed for everyone to see.
As for the "sitting in the passenger seat" question, "no" is the answer: I don't care what paper qualifications the driver would have in that situation if I were the passenger; I'd judge (and feel) based on what he/she was doing.
Some people pick up the "art" of driving very quickly, some don't. When I am a passenger (e.g. with a friend, or taxi driver, or whatever) I pick up their style and experience very quickly (provided they don't know I'm watching, i.e. they aren't putting on a special display).
I wonder if that answers that question, if not then please post again with more specifics.
As to socratic, heuistic or didatic, sorry you've lost me. But perhaps it would help if I say that I have some training in QA (if we're talking about non-driver type of training), so I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have. That's not the same as being in a cutting-edge role, where the rules are being made, and I've been there too.
At this point I'm off to watch the Euro game, so maybe we can pick this up later.
M4cruiser said:
Interesting question(s) julian, and I'm happy to provide the insight you'd be looking for.
... if only I could understand the questions better ... so it may take a few posts to get to the essence of it.
I see that you have thousands more posts than me, so maybe you understand this Forum better, but those levels are clearly displayed for everyone to see.
As for the "sitting in the passenger seat" question, "no" is the answer: I don't care what paper qualifications the driver would have in that situation if I were the passenger; I'd judge (and feel) based on what he/she was doing.
Some people pick up the "art" of driving very quickly, some don't. When I am a passenger (e.g. with a friend, or taxi driver, or whatever) I pick up their style and experience very quickly (provided they don't know I'm watching, i.e. they aren't putting on a special display).
I wonder if that answers that question, if not then please post again with more specifics.
As to socratic, heuistic or didatic, sorry you've lost me. But perhaps it would help if I say that I have some training in QA (if we're talking about non-driver type of training), so I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have. That's not the same as being in a cutting-edge role, where the rules are being made, and I've been there too.
At this point I'm off to watch the Euro game, so maybe we can pick this up later.
The only one here making up their own rules is the one who made up the one about off siding not being allowed.... if only I could understand the questions better ... so it may take a few posts to get to the essence of it.
I see that you have thousands more posts than me, so maybe you understand this Forum better, but those levels are clearly displayed for everyone to see.
As for the "sitting in the passenger seat" question, "no" is the answer: I don't care what paper qualifications the driver would have in that situation if I were the passenger; I'd judge (and feel) based on what he/she was doing.
Some people pick up the "art" of driving very quickly, some don't. When I am a passenger (e.g. with a friend, or taxi driver, or whatever) I pick up their style and experience very quickly (provided they don't know I'm watching, i.e. they aren't putting on a special display).
I wonder if that answers that question, if not then please post again with more specifics.
As to socratic, heuistic or didatic, sorry you've lost me. But perhaps it would help if I say that I have some training in QA (if we're talking about non-driver type of training), so I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have. That's not the same as being in a cutting-edge role, where the rules are being made, and I've been there too.
At this point I'm off to watch the Euro game, so maybe we can pick this up later.
M4cruiser said:
I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have.
There are already rules about when you can and cannot use the other side of the road, though.One of the things about rules is it's generally better if you give some time to considering exactly what the rule actually is, as well as why it is that.
This helps massively when dealing with edge cases, or when it's not overly clear what rule applies.
It is also extremely useful when dealing with someone who thinks the rule is something it isn't, not just to be able to dismiss that, but to consider why they have that impression, and discuss it with them.
I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere , 40-60 miles from a dual carriageway or motorway depending on direction.
As such most my driving is on poor quality A roads. I would say 90% of drivers can’t or won’t overtake and so trains of cars doing 45 mph are really common.
I tend to overtake despite knowing it will gain me little but it’s incredibly tiring driving behind someone who hits the brakes at every kink in the road or if something comes the other way .
When they do overtake ( if it’s something really slow like a tractor), they pull out at 20mph in 6th gear and so deny everyone else the opportunity for the next 5 miles.
Oh and if you do overtake, they catch you up in a village with a 20 or 30 mph limit , because they just keep going at 45!
Most have no idea what gear their car is in, but their brains are in neutral.
As such most my driving is on poor quality A roads. I would say 90% of drivers can’t or won’t overtake and so trains of cars doing 45 mph are really common.
I tend to overtake despite knowing it will gain me little but it’s incredibly tiring driving behind someone who hits the brakes at every kink in the road or if something comes the other way .
When they do overtake ( if it’s something really slow like a tractor), they pull out at 20mph in 6th gear and so deny everyone else the opportunity for the next 5 miles.
Oh and if you do overtake, they catch you up in a village with a 20 or 30 mph limit , because they just keep going at 45!
Most have no idea what gear their car is in, but their brains are in neutral.
I live in rural Scotland and we’re surrounded by wonderful driving roads. The majority of people know how to overtake on A roads and do so regularly. I am happy to push on a bit and really enjoy overtaking traffic without taking silly risks. I drove from Oban to Perthshire on Sunday and had good fun overtaking with several others doing the same. Those being overtaken didn’t make any gestures and those overtaking probably exceeded the speed limit during the overtake but dropped back again afterwards (you have to - we have lots of average speed cameras). Most experiences here - I think - appear to be in England where you seem to drive faster on motorways than us but drive slower on good A roads in the right conditions. I never exceed 77mph on motorways but traffic on A roads will often sit between 60-70. My view is that exceeding the NSL for an overtake is generally safer than crawling past at 60. My car has about 450 bhp so nipping past people quickly and minimising TED is easy. I appreciate not everyone will agree with me but I’ve never overtaken someone and had a negative reaction. Incidentally I was quite impressed that the Mercedes support van driving between Crianlarich and Oban on Saturday made keeping up in an RS6 quite a challenge!
w1bbles said:
I live in rural Scotland and we’re surrounded by wonderful driving roads. The majority of people know how to overtake on A roads and do so regularly. I am happy to push on a bit and really enjoy overtaking traffic without taking silly risks. I drove from Oban to Perthshire on Sunday and had good fun overtaking with several others doing the same. Those being overtaken didn’t make any gestures and those overtaking probably exceeded the speed limit during the overtake but dropped back again afterwards (you have to - we have lots of average speed cameras). Most experiences here - I think - appear to be in England where you seem to drive faster on motorways than us but drive slower on good A roads in the right conditions. I never exceed 77mph on motorways but traffic on A roads will often sit between 60-70. My view is that exceeding the NSL for an overtake is generally safer than crawling past at 60. My car has about 450 bhp so nipping past people quickly and minimising TED is easy. I appreciate not everyone will agree with me but I’ve never overtaken someone and had a negative reaction. Incidentally I was quite impressed that the Mercedes support van driving between Crianlarich and Oban on Saturday made keeping up in an RS6 quite a challenge!
I’m in rural Scotland too, and find my experience at odds with yours. I make do with 270 bhp.anonymous said:
[redacted]
You assume they beeped because the thought you were travelling too fast. Your wife agreed with them. Are they both wrong?
This is the crux of the point. Define what is too fast? In my example the driver is driving so as to be able to stop within the distance they can see to be clear, within the speed limit, on the correct side of the road and are making legal progress at the same time. Nothing about the positioning of the vehicle would lead to an adverse reaction. It is simply the perception of the oncomer that the driver is going too fast as they rarely see drivers making progress at this particular bend.The passenger also has the sensation of it "feeling fast" because they see driving as a tool to go from A to B and have no interest in the dynamics of car control or any AD techniques. So - the driver is NOT going too fast from a legal or AD point of view, however the perception by the untrained oncomer and passenger is that they are. This perception is exactly that, perceived danger, not actual danger. The driver is not driving too fast at all, however two third parties would say there were because they do not understand the though processes or driving applications involved.
A bit like the over cautions dawdler who when you overtake them legally as they are doing 40mph in an NSL, they flash their lights and shake their fists. "Dangerous moron" is how they would describe you to their family when they got home, a driver "driving like a bat out of hell" and being "reckless" etc. The reality is the opposite, they were the inconsiderate ones unaware of the speed limit and/or how to drive within it safely, and the driver performed a safe and well executed overtake.
In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
LeoSayer said:
If you don't like the reactions you get from other drivers then stop driving in a way that causes it.
In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
Perhaps the 40MPH dawdlers should regard consideration for other road users as more important than going unnecessarily slowly for the sake of it.In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
Mrs Miggins is quite happy to devote what time she has left before shuffling off to writing letters to people about how the roads need lower speed limits, more overtaking restrictions, more cameras etc.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
InitialDave said:
Mrs Miggins is quite happy to devote what time she has left before shuffling off to writing letters to people about how the roads need lower speed limits, more overtaking restrictions, more cameras etc.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
It's the same kind of (correct) argument as to why people shouldn't have noisy exhausts on their cars and motorbikes - it ruins it for everyone else. And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
But making "under the radar" progress is definitely the way forward.
For what it's worth, and I'm aware this is going to jinx me, but I can't recall a negative reaction to an overtake I've carried out, either in a car or on a motorbike, and I live in SE London/NW Kent. Maybe just luck, as I don't drive or ride lots of miles/year, but have been driving for quite a while now.
I've never had the cajones to overtake a police car on a B road though, so maybe I'm doing it wrong
Dr Jekyll said:
The only one here making up their own rules is the one who made up the one about off siding not being allowed.
"not being allowed" is different to "not being advised" or advice to "move out to the centre".I haven't said it's actually illegal in itself, but it might become illegal under the careless driving rules, if it causes a problem.
... all assuming we're not talking about continuous double white lines in the middle ...
M4cruiser said:
Armchair_Expert seems to be confirming my general drift, i.e. police drivers get (and need) training that the public don't get or have easy access to; police drivers do higher-speed training in unmarked cars, using the wrong side of the road can create huge problems,
oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
I don't intend to "shoot anyone down" so apologies if I caused offence. I just consider there to be a difference between opinions and facts; where inaccuracies are posted with apparent authority it's not unreasonable to call them out. There is no secret police version of Roadcraft and there is absolutely nothing wrong with offsiding per se. There is no suggestion that it is the right thing to do every time which is why such discussions become more complicated and these techniques are not taught to novices. However, this is the AD forum. All sorts of considerations need to be taken into account when driving as I'm sure you know, including third party perception. Using the offside may be safer, more dangerous or in some cases actually illegal. The same could be said about most driving actions. Driving around a blind bend at 59mph on a single-track NSL road would not constitute a speeding offence but could be deemed DWDC or dangerous driving, as an example. oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
Police drivers, depending on their operational deployment, do have higher or considerably higher levels of training than the average motorist who is unlikely to have taken any training since their basic DVSA test. This is not to say that similar training (perhaps with the exceptions of TPAC, simulated pursuits and high-speed urban driving) cannot be obtained by a civilian, albeit it can be more difficult and certainly costly to find.
The new version of Roadcraft is worth reading and cheap on Amazon, if you have not already read it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Thank you for that, I'd say that's a sensible post!... and it leads on to one of the points I'm making which is that some "civilian" drivers see the police do something (like offsiding) and assume that it must be a good, safety-enhancing thing to do, maybe backed up by some chit-chat in the Motoring pages of a newspaper explaining about improving the view around a bend, and so they then go on to do it themselves, even when it's not at all necessary, and without having had the necessary training.
M4cruiser said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Thank you for that, I'd say that's a sensible post!... and it leads on to one of the points I'm making which is that some "civilian" drivers see the police do something (like offsiding) and assume that it must be a good, safety-enhancing thing to do, maybe backed up by some chit-chat in the Motoring pages of a newspaper explaining about improving the view around a bend, and so they then go on to do it themselves, even when it's not at all necessary, and without having had the necessary training.
The instructor was ex police and delighted in demonstrating how fast he could drive his pupil’s cars, but he seemed to manage to put across a lot of information in that short period. All but one passed the test with silvers and golds and until covid I’ve kept up the three yearly retests ever since.
I learnt about the value of using all the road in some situations in that original one day course (something I’d never really considered before), but it doesn’t seem too complex to work out that there are many situations where it is inappropriate or even dangerous…
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes that is obviously true. It can be offset to some extent by use of offroad facilities where higher speeds are legal, although not then generally interacting with slow traffic. In the early days of the High Performance Course the instructors famously used a race circuit, generally I believe Brands Hatch, with the track being treated as a two way road. A couple of days ago I did 140 quite legally.When I took the course with a course manager who had been an instructor at Hendon I asked him how he could get civilians to, as he claimed, a comparable standard to police advanced drivers without requiring many weeks of full time training. His answer was that it was very much quicker to train the sort of students who paid large amounts of their own money for the course than those who were doing it as part of their job, and also that his students practised in their own time rather than during a formal course. That said, I know civilians who have taken as much training as police advanced drivers, and who regularly practise driving with a fellow critical advanced driver alongside.
I took my first advanced test some decades ago, in a less politically correct era, but after taking the High Performance Course. The summary on my Examiner's report said '... it was like being driven by a policeman' (the report is hanging in my loo !). I know other civilian drivers who are better than me.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
John Lyon retired from HPC years ago, HPC training is mainly on the public road, it's not primarily about techniques anyway but standards. I believe that certainly in John Lyon's day the 2 day course was 12 hours a day one to one instruction. Given that not everyone gets to start with that course, typically those who are around ROSPA Gold level, and ROSPA Gold is awarded to those who in the opinion of the ex police examiner 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course. The entry level for that course is about the same as that for the police advanced course.
So learning the rudiments in the first two days and then getting somewhere near the end standard (excluding blue light stuff) after a few more years of experience and coaching sounds feasible.
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