Thread Crush - Overtake
Discussion
Nutz. A rear wheel, dropped into a rain drain, as I was going around a bend the other day.
I would have preferred it didn't, but it being blind, I kept well over to the left.
I try to avoid anything that isn't smooth road because well it's less wear on the suspension.
According to her that knows best, I hit the curb. Which is strange as there was no curb.
I would have preferred it didn't, but it being blind, I kept well over to the left.
I try to avoid anything that isn't smooth road because well it's less wear on the suspension.
According to her that knows best, I hit the curb. Which is strange as there was no curb.
Armchair_Expert said:
FWIW I agree. I disagree wih the mantra that speed is unsafe in itself, it is the way in which it is used that makes it so. I also hate the fact that we are policed by cameras who have no discretion or knowledge of peoples ability or perception / intentions at the time. However I also accept that if you creep north of the limit then on your head be it - that is the risk of playing and you have to accept the consequences.
There are plenty of roads but also techniques one can employ to drive spiritedly on the public road without fear of being caught by the soulless camera network. Many military roads and land are surrounded by B roads that are fun and complex to drive, and are unpoliced owing to the complications of it being MOD land. That's just one example. Another example would be using AD vision to scan back from the horizon each time you exit a bend or junction, if your eyesight is good enough then any fluorescent chevrons or yellow jacket ahead should be apparent. That said, sometimes camera vans are white with no chevrons, I can't be sure but are there not also blue ones? If so then you may have to widen your mental checklist of what is a "risk" and react accordingly. Most of the time though the absence of any van or "risk" provides you with some reassurance prior to the next "opening up of vision". It is also true that hand held speed devices can be used to record speeds of vehicles in front and travelling away from it ( think motorway slip roads / hidden areas on a B road with vegetation ) . All you can do is be mindful of this and in your nearside mirror as you pass. Observation, observation, observation. There will always be risk and the effectiveness of minimizing it lies only with you as the driver.
The "passenger perception of danger" thing strikes a chord with me - I often have this conversation with my wife. Consider this scenario:
Driving through a series of bends on a single carriageway, at the national limit of 60mph. Vision is good that you can use the crown of the road ( combined with your own side ) to simply maintain momentum with minimum steering input, so less tyre wear and enhanced stablilty in general. Its all going swimmingly and your generally straightening the line taken between bends. As you approach a slight left hander your vision is marred by the nearside vegetation so you react in good time, nearside mirror and come away from the crown under deceleration, in order to enter the left hander at a speed your able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. You preparing to accelerate away again once your limit points starts to move, but your not there yet and about to enter the bend.
At the exact point at which your offside wheels move to the left of the white lines ( you having been aware of your inability to use any opposing carriageway ) a vehicle appears towards you, exiting the bend and going the other way. They have taken the bend fairly swiftly, but they for whatever reason, are shocked at your presence and form the view that you are travelling "too fast" for the bend. They are incorrect, this is merely an opinion they have formed as they have been "driving these roads for years and never had an accident" ( think typical 40 in a 30 zone then remain at 40 in the NSL ). As a result, they beep their horn as they pass, the dopler effect being heard within your cabin.
Your passenger wife, who is not AD trained or interested, now looks at you like your a dangerous moron, because you have been driving at pace, using the other side of the road, and now you have caused someone else to beep their horn and shake their fist. In her view the other driver "must be right" because the drive felt fast and she doesn't understand the levels of safety you have employed, or the idiotic mindset of the oncoming driver.
So in this scenario - you have been safe, progressive, mechanically sympathetic and aware of your full surroundings. You deserve praise. However, the perception from others both within your car and outside is that you are the problem. It drives me nuts.
I feel like we must have driven together..... Or perhaps we just have very similar ideas and have trained in a similar way. I’m not a copper btw and never have been. There are plenty of roads but also techniques one can employ to drive spiritedly on the public road without fear of being caught by the soulless camera network. Many military roads and land are surrounded by B roads that are fun and complex to drive, and are unpoliced owing to the complications of it being MOD land. That's just one example. Another example would be using AD vision to scan back from the horizon each time you exit a bend or junction, if your eyesight is good enough then any fluorescent chevrons or yellow jacket ahead should be apparent. That said, sometimes camera vans are white with no chevrons, I can't be sure but are there not also blue ones? If so then you may have to widen your mental checklist of what is a "risk" and react accordingly. Most of the time though the absence of any van or "risk" provides you with some reassurance prior to the next "opening up of vision". It is also true that hand held speed devices can be used to record speeds of vehicles in front and travelling away from it ( think motorway slip roads / hidden areas on a B road with vegetation ) . All you can do is be mindful of this and in your nearside mirror as you pass. Observation, observation, observation. There will always be risk and the effectiveness of minimizing it lies only with you as the driver.
The "passenger perception of danger" thing strikes a chord with me - I often have this conversation with my wife. Consider this scenario:
Driving through a series of bends on a single carriageway, at the national limit of 60mph. Vision is good that you can use the crown of the road ( combined with your own side ) to simply maintain momentum with minimum steering input, so less tyre wear and enhanced stablilty in general. Its all going swimmingly and your generally straightening the line taken between bends. As you approach a slight left hander your vision is marred by the nearside vegetation so you react in good time, nearside mirror and come away from the crown under deceleration, in order to enter the left hander at a speed your able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. You preparing to accelerate away again once your limit points starts to move, but your not there yet and about to enter the bend.
At the exact point at which your offside wheels move to the left of the white lines ( you having been aware of your inability to use any opposing carriageway ) a vehicle appears towards you, exiting the bend and going the other way. They have taken the bend fairly swiftly, but they for whatever reason, are shocked at your presence and form the view that you are travelling "too fast" for the bend. They are incorrect, this is merely an opinion they have formed as they have been "driving these roads for years and never had an accident" ( think typical 40 in a 30 zone then remain at 40 in the NSL ). As a result, they beep their horn as they pass, the dopler effect being heard within your cabin.
Your passenger wife, who is not AD trained or interested, now looks at you like your a dangerous moron, because you have been driving at pace, using the other side of the road, and now you have caused someone else to beep their horn and shake their fist. In her view the other driver "must be right" because the drive felt fast and she doesn't understand the levels of safety you have employed, or the idiotic mindset of the oncoming driver.
So in this scenario - you have been safe, progressive, mechanically sympathetic and aware of your full surroundings. You deserve praise. However, the perception from others both within your car and outside is that you are the problem. It drives me nuts.
I think, as you say, there remain plenty of roads for enjoying driving but they have to be sought and they certainly won’t be the primary routes and/or those the satnavs tend to direct us to. I try to enjoy driving where enforcement and lack of interesting features prevent spirited drives in a different way - working on observation in these settings is quite enjoyable in my view.
DocSteve said:
Armchair_Expert said:
Using the other side of the road is a technique available to everyone, and the fact that 99 percent of the public do not do so is only down to the fact 99 percent of the public have no interest in AD or improving their skills. Nor do they have to. However it is a technique that needs to be understood in order for it to be used safely. Knitting together a series of bends by apexing and straight lining is a very rewarding thing, added to when you have bends that are either shallow enough in depth or have sufficient vision to remain offside.
** and other stuff **
Police drivers are not exempt from careless or dangerous driving - it is nothing to do with them being police drivers that allow use of the offside lane. It can feel unnatural driving in the offside lane however sometimes it is the safest place to be.
Police pursuit drivers get training specific to pursuits - police response and advanced drivers get training in overtaking as this is one of the core foundation skills of AD. Police exemptions ( of which there are 3 ) do NOT need or rely on use of visual and audible warning equipment. In the 12 odd weeks of driving courses I clocked up in the job, around 80% of it is in unmarked cars using no warning equipment - all the equipment does is allow the public to react to your presence and make it simpler for you to make progress in the long run. Multiple uses every day of police vehicle using exemptions but not warning equipment in order to catch up to vehicles of interest, or for other police purposes where the equipment simply is not required.
I'm glad someone posted this in order to settle the nonsense posted by M4cruiser. Thanks for a sensible and accurate contribution. I thought I'd come back onto this forum to see if there was anything interesting being discussed but disappointly it seems that instead of discussing how to overtake safely and use the public roads better in general there is a melee of incorrect statements, polarised opinions and posts of an utterly irrelevant nature. ** and other stuff **
Police drivers are not exempt from careless or dangerous driving - it is nothing to do with them being police drivers that allow use of the offside lane. It can feel unnatural driving in the offside lane however sometimes it is the safest place to be.
Police pursuit drivers get training specific to pursuits - police response and advanced drivers get training in overtaking as this is one of the core foundation skills of AD. Police exemptions ( of which there are 3 ) do NOT need or rely on use of visual and audible warning equipment. In the 12 odd weeks of driving courses I clocked up in the job, around 80% of it is in unmarked cars using no warning equipment - all the equipment does is allow the public to react to your presence and make it simpler for you to make progress in the long run. Multiple uses every day of police vehicle using exemptions but not warning equipment in order to catch up to vehicles of interest, or for other police purposes where the equipment simply is not required.
Of course it is illegal to exceed the speed limit. That is not a matter that needs any debate (and by saying this I am not saying one should not exceed the speed limit should they wish to and consider it safe to do so) but what surely needs discussion and indeed accuracy as per the above is the art and skill of driving safely and enjoyably on the public road. People don't generally do well at things they don't enjoy....
oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
M4cruiser said:
oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
There are specific road marking which instruct you not to cross over to the other side of the road.If you do not have those markings on a given stretch of road, what does that tell you?
M4cruiser said:
Armchair_Expert seems to be confirming my general drift, i.e. police drivers get (and need) training that the public don't get or have easy access to; police drivers do higher-speed training in unmarked cars, using the wrong side of the road can create huge problems,
oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
Your correct.oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
Police drivers get training. But, that training comes in filters. 3 years in, response. 7 years in if your lucky, Advanced. After that, specialist training - depending on role. For example, close escort, fast roads, TPAC, anti-hijack, ARV tactics, and some others.
What I will say and something I hope Vonhosen will back up, is that you have your drivers, and then you have your drivers. As with life there are those that can , and those that can do it well. There is a minimum threshold of competence that police drivers need to adhere to to gain the qualification. There are those also that take pleasure in the subject and exceed.
Roadcraft is public, there is no secret other volume. What the likes of Von did / does is translate that same system, by teaching, onto the road. The absence of the speed limit in training, for a police purpose, means you can mould a whole new concept of safety into your candidate, when you follow the rules. Safety, system, smoothness. Speed always follows when you get those first three in check. Sparkle comes with expreience.
There is no substitute for experience.
M4cruiser said:
No, not the privileged, the trained.
The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
I have a question for you M4.The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
In your opinion would you feel safer sitting in the passenger seat with someone about to do an overtake
if:
They have just passed their police driver training but were only a few years of having a driving licence
or
They passed their training ten years ago but had an over ten year driving licence and a clean driving record
I only ask because some of your posts are a little fringe, but understanding why you post the way you do probably has a lot to do with what type of learner you are, and more importantly what type of learning you value.
Your posts seem to give no weight to socratic or heuristic learning, and everything to didatic. Its a very military, and ordered and I would be fascinated in your background.
Armchair_Expert said:
The "passenger perception of danger" thing strikes a chord with me - I often have this conversation with my wife. Consider this scenario:
Driving through a series of bends on a single carriageway, at the national limit of 60mph. Vision is good that you can use the crown of the road ( combined with your own side ) to simply maintain momentum with minimum steering input, so less tyre wear and enhanced stablilty in general. Its all going swimmingly and your generally straightening the line taken between bends. As you approach a slight left hander your vision is marred by the nearside vegetation so you react in good time, nearside mirror and come away from the crown under deceleration, in order to enter the left hander at a speed your able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. You preparing to accelerate away again once your limit points starts to move, but your not there yet and about to enter the bend.
At the exact point at which your offside wheels move to the left of the white lines ( you having been aware of your inability to use any opposing carriageway ) a vehicle appears towards you, exiting the bend and going the other way. They have taken the bend fairly swiftly, but they for whatever reason, are shocked at your presence and form the view that you are travelling "too fast" for the bend. They are incorrect, this is merely an opinion they have formed as they have been "driving these roads for years and never had an accident" ( think typical 40 in a 30 zone then remain at 40 in the NSL ). As a result, they beep their horn as they pass, the dopler effect being heard within your cabin.
Your passenger wife, who is not AD trained or interested, now looks at you like your a dangerous moron, because you have been driving at pace, using the other side of the road, and now you have caused someone else to beep their horn and shake their fist. In her view the other driver "must be right" because the drive felt fast and she doesn't understand the levels of safety you have employed, or the idiotic mindset of the oncoming driver.
So in this scenario - you have been safe, progressive, mechanically sympathetic and aware of your full surroundings. You deserve praise. However, the perception from others both within your car and outside is that you are the problem. It drives me nuts.
You make a few assumptions about the oncoming driver and call him an idiot.Driving through a series of bends on a single carriageway, at the national limit of 60mph. Vision is good that you can use the crown of the road ( combined with your own side ) to simply maintain momentum with minimum steering input, so less tyre wear and enhanced stablilty in general. Its all going swimmingly and your generally straightening the line taken between bends. As you approach a slight left hander your vision is marred by the nearside vegetation so you react in good time, nearside mirror and come away from the crown under deceleration, in order to enter the left hander at a speed your able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. You preparing to accelerate away again once your limit points starts to move, but your not there yet and about to enter the bend.
At the exact point at which your offside wheels move to the left of the white lines ( you having been aware of your inability to use any opposing carriageway ) a vehicle appears towards you, exiting the bend and going the other way. They have taken the bend fairly swiftly, but they for whatever reason, are shocked at your presence and form the view that you are travelling "too fast" for the bend. They are incorrect, this is merely an opinion they have formed as they have been "driving these roads for years and never had an accident" ( think typical 40 in a 30 zone then remain at 40 in the NSL ). As a result, they beep their horn as they pass, the dopler effect being heard within your cabin.
Your passenger wife, who is not AD trained or interested, now looks at you like your a dangerous moron, because you have been driving at pace, using the other side of the road, and now you have caused someone else to beep their horn and shake their fist. In her view the other driver "must be right" because the drive felt fast and she doesn't understand the levels of safety you have employed, or the idiotic mindset of the oncoming driver.
So in this scenario - you have been safe, progressive, mechanically sympathetic and aware of your full surroundings. You deserve praise. However, the perception from others both within your car and outside is that you are the problem. It drives me nuts.
Could the driver have beeped because, when he first saw you, you were driving on the other side of the road into his path?
You assume they beeped because the thought you were travelling too fast. Your wife agreed with them. Are they both wrong?
Making good progress is a great thing in the right circumstances but if you frequently get this kind of reaction then maybe its worth considering modifying your driving style to avoid alarming others.
LeoSayer said:
Could the driver have beeped because, when he first saw you, you were driving on the other side of the road into his path?
It is possible, yes. By the way this didn't actually happen it was a hypothetical. I tried to phrase the example in such a way that when the oncomer came into view you were not on the opposing carriageway, hence the wheels being fully over the centre lines.LeoSayer said:
You assume they beeped because the thought you were travelling too fast. Your wife agreed with them. Are they both wrong?
This is the crux of the point. Define what is too fast? In my example the driver is driving so as to be able to stop within the distance they can see to be clear, within the speed limit, on the correct side of the road and are making legal progress at the same time. Nothing about the positioning of the vehicle would lead to an adverse reaction. It is simply the perception of the oncomer that the driver is going too fast as they rarely see drivers making progress at this particular bend.The passenger also has the sensation of it "feeling fast" because they see driving as a tool to go from A to B and have no interest in the dynamics of car control or any AD techniques. So - the driver is NOT going too fast from a legal or AD point of view, however the perception by the untrained oncomer and passenger is that they are. This perception is exactly that, perceived danger, not actual danger. The driver is not driving too fast at all, however two third parties would say there were because they do not understand the though processes or driving applications involved.
A bit like the over cautions dawdler who when you overtake them legally as they are doing 40mph in an NSL, they flash their lights and shake their fists. "Dangerous moron" is how they would describe you to their family when they got home, a driver "driving like a bat out of hell" and being "reckless" etc. The reality is the opposite, they were the inconsiderate ones unaware of the speed limit and/or how to drive within it safely, and the driver performed a safe and well executed overtake.
M4cruiser said:
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, !
But you're posting things as if they are facts (like that there is a secret police version of Roadcraft with different rules) which are not true, so you should probably expect to be shot down at least a bit. julian64 said:
M4cruiser said:
No, not the privileged, the trained.
The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
I have a question for you M4.The average driver with a few days experience (or even a few hours) is entitled to overtake. But it can go wrong ....
Why do you think police drivers get a lot of training to do overtakes?
Others watch it and think they can copy.
In your opinion would you feel safer sitting in the passenger seat with someone about to do an overtake
if:
They have just passed their police driver training but were only a few years of having a driving licence
or
They passed their training ten years ago but had an over ten year driving licence and a clean driving record
I only ask because some of your posts are a little fringe, but understanding why you post the way you do probably has a lot to do with what type of learner you are, and more importantly what type of learning you value.
Your posts seem to give no weight to socratic or heuristic learning, and everything to didatic. Its a very military, and ordered and I would be fascinated in your background.
... if only I could understand the questions better ... so it may take a few posts to get to the essence of it.
I see that you have thousands more posts than me, so maybe you understand this Forum better, but those levels are clearly displayed for everyone to see.
As for the "sitting in the passenger seat" question, "no" is the answer: I don't care what paper qualifications the driver would have in that situation if I were the passenger; I'd judge (and feel) based on what he/she was doing.
Some people pick up the "art" of driving very quickly, some don't. When I am a passenger (e.g. with a friend, or taxi driver, or whatever) I pick up their style and experience very quickly (provided they don't know I'm watching, i.e. they aren't putting on a special display).
I wonder if that answers that question, if not then please post again with more specifics.
As to socratic, heuistic or didatic, sorry you've lost me. But perhaps it would help if I say that I have some training in QA (if we're talking about non-driver type of training), so I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have. That's not the same as being in a cutting-edge role, where the rules are being made, and I've been there too.
At this point I'm off to watch the Euro game, so maybe we can pick this up later.
M4cruiser said:
Interesting question(s) julian, and I'm happy to provide the insight you'd be looking for.
... if only I could understand the questions better ... so it may take a few posts to get to the essence of it.
I see that you have thousands more posts than me, so maybe you understand this Forum better, but those levels are clearly displayed for everyone to see.
As for the "sitting in the passenger seat" question, "no" is the answer: I don't care what paper qualifications the driver would have in that situation if I were the passenger; I'd judge (and feel) based on what he/she was doing.
Some people pick up the "art" of driving very quickly, some don't. When I am a passenger (e.g. with a friend, or taxi driver, or whatever) I pick up their style and experience very quickly (provided they don't know I'm watching, i.e. they aren't putting on a special display).
I wonder if that answers that question, if not then please post again with more specifics.
As to socratic, heuistic or didatic, sorry you've lost me. But perhaps it would help if I say that I have some training in QA (if we're talking about non-driver type of training), so I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have. That's not the same as being in a cutting-edge role, where the rules are being made, and I've been there too.
At this point I'm off to watch the Euro game, so maybe we can pick this up later.
The only one here making up their own rules is the one who made up the one about off siding not being allowed.... if only I could understand the questions better ... so it may take a few posts to get to the essence of it.
I see that you have thousands more posts than me, so maybe you understand this Forum better, but those levels are clearly displayed for everyone to see.
As for the "sitting in the passenger seat" question, "no" is the answer: I don't care what paper qualifications the driver would have in that situation if I were the passenger; I'd judge (and feel) based on what he/she was doing.
Some people pick up the "art" of driving very quickly, some don't. When I am a passenger (e.g. with a friend, or taxi driver, or whatever) I pick up their style and experience very quickly (provided they don't know I'm watching, i.e. they aren't putting on a special display).
I wonder if that answers that question, if not then please post again with more specifics.
As to socratic, heuistic or didatic, sorry you've lost me. But perhaps it would help if I say that I have some training in QA (if we're talking about non-driver type of training), so I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have. That's not the same as being in a cutting-edge role, where the rules are being made, and I've been there too.
At this point I'm off to watch the Euro game, so maybe we can pick this up later.
M4cruiser said:
I find rules easy to follow, or more accurately I find the concept of following rules easy. I don't see the point of making up your own rules if the existing ones have been shaped over many years and with more experience than I shall ever have.
There are already rules about when you can and cannot use the other side of the road, though.One of the things about rules is it's generally better if you give some time to considering exactly what the rule actually is, as well as why it is that.
This helps massively when dealing with edge cases, or when it's not overly clear what rule applies.
It is also extremely useful when dealing with someone who thinks the rule is something it isn't, not just to be able to dismiss that, but to consider why they have that impression, and discuss it with them.
I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere , 40-60 miles from a dual carriageway or motorway depending on direction.
As such most my driving is on poor quality A roads. I would say 90% of drivers can’t or won’t overtake and so trains of cars doing 45 mph are really common.
I tend to overtake despite knowing it will gain me little but it’s incredibly tiring driving behind someone who hits the brakes at every kink in the road or if something comes the other way .
When they do overtake ( if it’s something really slow like a tractor), they pull out at 20mph in 6th gear and so deny everyone else the opportunity for the next 5 miles.
Oh and if you do overtake, they catch you up in a village with a 20 or 30 mph limit , because they just keep going at 45!
Most have no idea what gear their car is in, but their brains are in neutral.
As such most my driving is on poor quality A roads. I would say 90% of drivers can’t or won’t overtake and so trains of cars doing 45 mph are really common.
I tend to overtake despite knowing it will gain me little but it’s incredibly tiring driving behind someone who hits the brakes at every kink in the road or if something comes the other way .
When they do overtake ( if it’s something really slow like a tractor), they pull out at 20mph in 6th gear and so deny everyone else the opportunity for the next 5 miles.
Oh and if you do overtake, they catch you up in a village with a 20 or 30 mph limit , because they just keep going at 45!
Most have no idea what gear their car is in, but their brains are in neutral.
I live in rural Scotland and we’re surrounded by wonderful driving roads. The majority of people know how to overtake on A roads and do so regularly. I am happy to push on a bit and really enjoy overtaking traffic without taking silly risks. I drove from Oban to Perthshire on Sunday and had good fun overtaking with several others doing the same. Those being overtaken didn’t make any gestures and those overtaking probably exceeded the speed limit during the overtake but dropped back again afterwards (you have to - we have lots of average speed cameras). Most experiences here - I think - appear to be in England where you seem to drive faster on motorways than us but drive slower on good A roads in the right conditions. I never exceed 77mph on motorways but traffic on A roads will often sit between 60-70. My view is that exceeding the NSL for an overtake is generally safer than crawling past at 60. My car has about 450 bhp so nipping past people quickly and minimising TED is easy. I appreciate not everyone will agree with me but I’ve never overtaken someone and had a negative reaction. Incidentally I was quite impressed that the Mercedes support van driving between Crianlarich and Oban on Saturday made keeping up in an RS6 quite a challenge!
w1bbles said:
I live in rural Scotland and we’re surrounded by wonderful driving roads. The majority of people know how to overtake on A roads and do so regularly. I am happy to push on a bit and really enjoy overtaking traffic without taking silly risks. I drove from Oban to Perthshire on Sunday and had good fun overtaking with several others doing the same. Those being overtaken didn’t make any gestures and those overtaking probably exceeded the speed limit during the overtake but dropped back again afterwards (you have to - we have lots of average speed cameras). Most experiences here - I think - appear to be in England where you seem to drive faster on motorways than us but drive slower on good A roads in the right conditions. I never exceed 77mph on motorways but traffic on A roads will often sit between 60-70. My view is that exceeding the NSL for an overtake is generally safer than crawling past at 60. My car has about 450 bhp so nipping past people quickly and minimising TED is easy. I appreciate not everyone will agree with me but I’ve never overtaken someone and had a negative reaction. Incidentally I was quite impressed that the Mercedes support van driving between Crianlarich and Oban on Saturday made keeping up in an RS6 quite a challenge!
I’m in rural Scotland too, and find my experience at odds with yours. I make do with 270 bhp.Armchair_Expert said:
LeoSayer said:
You assume they beeped because the thought you were travelling too fast. Your wife agreed with them. Are they both wrong?
This is the crux of the point. Define what is too fast? In my example the driver is driving so as to be able to stop within the distance they can see to be clear, within the speed limit, on the correct side of the road and are making legal progress at the same time. Nothing about the positioning of the vehicle would lead to an adverse reaction. It is simply the perception of the oncomer that the driver is going too fast as they rarely see drivers making progress at this particular bend.The passenger also has the sensation of it "feeling fast" because they see driving as a tool to go from A to B and have no interest in the dynamics of car control or any AD techniques. So - the driver is NOT going too fast from a legal or AD point of view, however the perception by the untrained oncomer and passenger is that they are. This perception is exactly that, perceived danger, not actual danger. The driver is not driving too fast at all, however two third parties would say there were because they do not understand the though processes or driving applications involved.
A bit like the over cautions dawdler who when you overtake them legally as they are doing 40mph in an NSL, they flash their lights and shake their fists. "Dangerous moron" is how they would describe you to their family when they got home, a driver "driving like a bat out of hell" and being "reckless" etc. The reality is the opposite, they were the inconsiderate ones unaware of the speed limit and/or how to drive within it safely, and the driver performed a safe and well executed overtake.
In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
LeoSayer said:
If you don't like the reactions you get from other drivers then stop driving in a way that causes it.
In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
Perhaps the 40MPH dawdlers should regard consideration for other road users as more important than going unnecessarily slowly for the sake of it.In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
LeoSayer said:
If you don't like the reactions you get from other drivers then stop driving in a way that causes it.
In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
I know what tour trying to say but you keep missing my point. The fact you keep responding as if I have quoted a real life scenario also suggests your not reading my posts properly.In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.
Why in my THEORETICAL scenario should I alter the way I drive purely for the benefit of other peoples ignorance? Why should it be my fault if other people who are less able / trained / experienced incorrectly perceive what I am doing as dangerous? Should I be expected to not to make progress where it is safe and practicable to do so just because you or Mrs Miggins form the opinion that what I am doing is in some way illegal or reckless when in fact it is not?
Mrs Miggins is quite happy to devote what time she has left before shuffling off to writing letters to people about how the roads need lower speed limits, more overtaking restrictions, more cameras etc.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
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