Thread Crush - Overtake

[kiethton]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

From my own experience of HPC - DC/motorways are not a focus on the course, because beyond the basics, as non-police it's not fun and value can't be added - you aren't trying to cover mile after mile in pursuit, your making progress - thoughts/broader thinking/risk assessment were still helpful on the autobahn though - majority of work in the course is on SC A/B/C roads and in town where you were analysing the full spectrum of closing speeds vs traffic vs corners etc and being smooth/reading ahead in town. It's not the same as full-on policeis pursuit driving but it lays exactly the same grounding which you then build on with more training and observed drives - driving styles are similar when alone and out of town (but without exemptions) but very different amongst other traffic.

The ethos and content for these roads (where the fun/experience is greatest in Civvie world) is where the value is added.

[Dr Jekyll]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Even before 2007 most HPC instruction was on the public road with just occasional use of track environments to cover specific points. This goes back to the early 1960s.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

None so far as I know, without sufficient grasp of the theory you didn't get on the course in the first place.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But that's the point. Civilian driving doesn't involve such high speeds, going through red lights or off siding keep left bollards. So any deficiencies in these techniques aren't an issue. My comment about the entry level was referring to driving without exemptions, and based on the ROSPA advanced driving organisation's guidance to it's own examiners. The fact is that if lack of experience of offsiding keep left signs through red lights at 150MPH manifests itself as an error in technique in civilian driving, that error can be addressed in civilian driving. If the difference isn't apparent in civilian driving, then it isn't a problem.
Incidentally John Lyon told me he's had ROSPA gold qualified drivers who he judged weren't ready for his course.

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If the technique you refer can be practiced without exemptions then I'm sure civilian organisations cover it. If it can't then it's irrelevant.

[MrsMiggins]

InitialDave said:

Mrs Miggins is quite happy to devote what time she has left before shuffling off to writing letters to people about how the roads need lower speed limits, more overtaking restrictions, more cameras etc.

And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.

Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.

honestly no one listens to me at all. Please feel free to overtake safely, offside etc.

When I did BikeSafe a couple of years ago I had a lengthy chat with the bike cop about offsiding and he positively encouraged it. It's now part of my riding and driving and I don't see anything wrong with it when done appropriately.

[InitialDave]

MrsMiggins said:

onestly no one listens to me at all. Please feel free to overtake safely, offside etc.

[Dr Jekyll]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Perfectly true, but then the same applied when I've driven with John Lyon and a few other police trained instructors.
It wasn't the way a police trainee using all exemptions would be expected to drive, but it certainly wasn't sticking rigidly to NSL either.
I think some IAM bike groups in particular did have something of a 'speed wall', but tended to treat it as a target. Spending a lot of time at say 90, but no faster. While JL said specifically that he treated non trunk road NSLs as derestricted and occasionally hit 90, very occasionally three figures. That was in a car not a bike, but I was happy with the speed he drove me and he was OK with the somewhat lower speed at which I drove him . While I parted company with an IAM bike group because I wasn't happy with the speed they went round corners, which I suspected was connected with the way every meeting seem to include a reference to whichever member had suffered a single vehicle cornering accident that month.

[DocSteve]

Armchair expert - I can’t really disagree with much of what you say. For the purpose of attempting to “perfect” civilian driving including high performance aspects it is plainly obvious that driving at a safe speed for the circumstances must be the focus, rather than consideration of the posted speed limit per se. Some activities that the police do are not covered by organisations like HPC. I have had some rare opportunities and have been fortunate to not only complete John Lyon’s HPC course (which did include some proving ground work at Millbrook and MIRA but most on road) but also work with a number of organisations, including the police, on my road driving. My own enthusiasm and passion to continue improving my driving has hopefully, like any skill, with appropriate instruction/coaching then practise practise practise, including in far flung Asian countries where driving standards are very poor, thousands of Autobahn miles, differing conditions and vehicles etc I am developing my own ability and I take advice and guidance from anyone knowledgable about different aspects of driving. However, it is correct that the only way I would get exposure to formal police driver training for operational use would be to join the police or work towards becoming a civilian instructor - both of which especially the former are not feasible options for me at the moment. I am just on a learning curve which I don’t think will ever stop.

Rather than saying we are comparing apples to pears etc or having a robust discussion about police driver standards vs a civilian who invests time and effort in their training I think we should celebrate the fact that there are people out there including those posting on this forum who seek to take their driving to a much higher level than the average motorist. Unfortunately accidents and poor driver standards seem to have led to a lot of otherwise good roads being littered with cameras and reduced from NSL to 50. I went to a RoSPA meeting a while back and a new, middle aged guy turned up and his reasoning for attending was he’d just had an accident and wanted to improve his driving. He didn’t want to learn high performance driving skills, he just wanted to reduce his chances of being in an accident. That’s great in my view. I do see the police on these TV shows having a go at motorists they stop for contravening traffic laws (which I accept is their job) but I do wonder if a small bit of education and some pointers as to how they might improve their driving would help (I’m not talking about morons who are no hopers, just the average family motorist who really could benefit from some extra training).

Anyway I’m digressing a bit but my main point is a range of skills are needed for driving safely on the roads, which are far from sterile environments. The U.K. police have a system which seems to work fairly well compared with other countries and is embedded in Roadcraft. However, I do wonder if it is too dogmatic sometimes. Put an experienced traffic officer on a complex and busy road in Asia, I think they’d do better than many but applying the system would just not work in some scenarios, so being agile is also key. No worries about third party perception there - anything goes, even in front of the police :-) Finally, back to overtaking and off siding I will continue to do them whenever it is safe and will not cause an obvious nuisance to anyone. However, as you say if the said Mrs Muggins or hot headed family man suddenly decides they don’t like being overtaken in a perfectly safe manner then that’s just human beings - some are either idiots or they just don’t understand much about what they are actually doing (ie driving!)

[M4cruiser]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

There's always a fair amount of IAM-bashing on Forums like this, the root of it (my opinion of course) is lack of understanding of what the IAM is about.
It's not about speed. It's about safety. "They" (us) will often mention crashes etc, but in the spirit of using them as training aids.
IAM now don't endorse exceeding the speed limit.
IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) but it's not the same as Police Class 1 for the reasons Armchair_Expert describes, it simply can't be. But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

[waremark]

M4cruiser said:

IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) ...... But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

Do you mean Masters? - A higher level course and test offered by IAM. 'Fellow' does not have a different course or different test - it indicates a normal test taken every three years.

IAM Masters is a higher level than IAM First (an award for a particularly good drive on a regular IAM test) but it is not on the same level as HPC.

[Pit Pony]

LeoSayer said:

If you don't like the reactions you get from other drivers then stop driving in a way that causes it.

In my opinion, consideration for other road users of varying abilities (and my passengers) is more important than making progress.

Many years ago, I was flashed by a guy that I'd just over taken, my initial thoughts were that he was a bit of a wker given it was a NSL B road and he was travelling at 45 mph.
Having over taken him we came to a village where I slowed to the speed limit which at the time was 40 mph, and is now 30 mph.

He caught up with me. I assume he continued to drive at 45 mph in the village that he lived in. Half way through the village, he turned right into a cul de sac. And being a little impetuous, I turned around and went and found him getting out of his car. I asked him, if there was something wrong with my car? Because I assume that's why he flashed me.
No. He flashed me because I was driving dangerously and too fast.

Unfortunately I may then have lost the argument by my choice use of language, but I am pleased I called him a knob womble.

I overtook him a few days later in the same place
(our journeys must have been at regular times) but he didn't flash me.

Maybe he thought I'd beat the crap out of him, as I did have a very short hair cut and probably looked like a thug.

[julian64]

Dr Jekyll said:

Perfectly true, but then the same applied when I've driven with John Lyon and a few other police trained instructors.
It wasn't the way a police trainee using all exemptions would be expected to drive, but it certainly wasn't sticking rigidly to NSL either.
I think some IAM bike groups in particular did have something of a 'speed wall', but tended to treat it as a target. Spending a lot of time at say 90, but no faster. While JL said specifically that he treated non trunk road NSLs as derestricted and occasionally hit 90, very occasionally three figures. That was in a car not a bike, but I was happy with the speed he drove me and he was OK with the somewhat lower speed at which I drove him . While I parted company with an IAM bike group because I wasn't happy with the speed they went round corners, which I suspected was connected with the way every meeting seem to include a reference to whichever member had suffered a single vehicle cornering accident that month.

I ditched any sort of club or drive meeting nearly ten years ago due to the possibility of a joint venture.

[Toltec]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My dad told me you should try to drive in a way that means other drivers don't even notice you were there.

Not literally not seeing you obviously, more that you didn't make any difference to their journey.

[otolith]

waremark said:

M4cruiser said:

IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) ...... But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

Do you mean Masters? - A higher level course and test offered by IAM. 'Fellow' does not have a different course or different test - it indicates a normal test taken every three years.

IAM Masters is a higher level than IAM First (an award for a particularly good drive on a regular IAM test) but it is not on the same level as HPC.

Does it come with epaulettes?

And maybe a hat?

[M4cruiser]

waremark said:

M4cruiser said:

IAM have their own premium-AD-course (Fellow) ...... But it may be the nearest thing a civilian can do, along with the HPC etc.

Do you mean Masters? - A higher level course and test offered by IAM. 'Fellow' does not have a different course or different test - it indicates a normal test taken every three years.

IAM Masters is a higher level than IAM First (an award for a particularly good drive on a regular IAM test) but it is not on the same level as HPC.

OOps sorry, my mistake, I of course meant Masters.

[DocSteve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

[julian64]

DocSteve said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Likely to be taken from a book fifty years ago when very fast cars met very slow cars out on the open road with completely different agenda. Making progress in a fast car with slow cars around you could be done smoothly and without fuss.

Today everyone is in a car with fairly matched ability to accelerate and perform within the speed limit. Someones driving ability means nothing if the cars are closely matched. And to add the last nail to the coffin everyone now uses the speed limit as a target, and above the speed limit comes with fairly onerous penalties for those of us who still work.

So overtake now is not relaxed and slow and without fuss. It is opportune, usually requires tailgating to alert, or by surprise on the dawdling driver, and needs a lot of fuss and flourish to make a car perform significantly better than the other within the speed limit.

Its nice to read books about slow and smooth, or hear stories on forum like this about it, but I wouldn't want to sit in a car with someone slow and smooth because they would be vulnerable to every odd, or weird driver on the road who hated their breakfast, or wife and was driving a shopping trolley still capable of a 5 second 0-60.

[Dr Jekyll]

julian64 said:

DocSteve said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Is that not taken directly from John Lyon’s book?

Likely to be taken from a book fifty years ago when very fast cars met very slow cars out on the open road with completely different agenda. Making progress in a fast car with slow cars around you could be done smoothly and without fuss.

Today everyone is in a car with fairly matched ability to accelerate and perform within the speed limit. Someones driving ability means nothing if the cars are closely matched. And to add the last nail to the coffin everyone now uses the speed limit as a target, and above the speed limit comes with fairly onerous penalties for those of us who still work.

So overtake now is not relaxed and slow and without fuss. It is opportune, usually requires tailgating to alert, or by surprise on the dawdling driver, and needs a lot of fuss and flourish to make a car perform significantly better than the other within the speed limit.

Its nice to read books about slow and smooth, or hear stories on forum like this about it, but I wouldn't want to sit in a car with someone slow and smooth because they would be vulnerable to every odd, or weird driver on the road who hated their breakfast, or wife and was driving a shopping trolley still capable of a 5 second 0-60.

I disagree with you there. There are plenty of drivers doing less than the limit on NSL roads, and a big difference between a smooth unobtrusive overtake and a rushed fussy one. Or between a driver who makes smooth progress down a twisty road and one who drives jerkily. Even in a built up area there is a big difference between the driver who makes a passenger feel relaxed and the one who has the passenger reflexively going for a non existent brake pedal.

It isn't about being 'slow', it's about avoiding unnecessary delay without rushing.

[julian64]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I don't think you really have a power advantage anymore which is kinda my point. An ideal overtake for smooth and fuss free is either a massive power advantage, which has to be more massive the more congested the road is, or a meeting of minds between the two drivers and a cooperative overtake.

The massive power advantage has all but gone in this world, even more so if you are going to restrict yourself to the speed limit.

The cooperative overtake is still a thing, but I tend to be quite cynical regarding this, and certainly while commuting, this is rarely a thing. Out for a drive at the weekend it is more of a thing, or better if you are driving something the car in front approves of.

Its not ideal to be surprising the driver in front with the overtake, But on balance weighing up either asking the psychi of the driver in front or surprising the psychi of the driver in front, I tend to find surprising to be the safer option. I do admit broad brush opinion here.

And I do realize I'm probably an outlier on an AD thread with that opinion.

[Pica-Pica]

julian64 said:

I don't think you really have a power advantage anymore which is kinda my point. An ideal overtake for smooth and fuss free is either a massive power advantage, which has to be more massive the more congested the road is, or a meeting of minds between the two drivers and a cooperative overtake.

The massive power advantage has all but gone in this world, even more so if you are going to restrict yourself to the speed limit.

The cooperative overtake is still a thing, but I tend to be quite cynical regarding this, and certainly while commuting, this is rarely a thing. Out for a drive at the weekend it is more of a thing, or better if you are driving something the car in front approves of.

Its not ideal to be surprising the driver in front with the overtake, But on balance weighing up either asking the psychi of the driver in front or surprising the psychi of the driver in front, I tend to find surprising to be the safer option. I do admit broad brush opinion here.

And I do realize I'm probably an outlier on an AD thread with that opinion.

I don’t think you need a power advantage, just observation and skill.

My best overtake was:
On an A road with a BMW in front and a lorry in-front of that.
As I approached, I kept back. The road bent slightly to the left and was up hill, so keeping back I had a clear view that the distant view was clear for a fair distance. I quickly closed the gap, moved out for the near view as the bend straightened, indicated and went past both. That was in a 1.2 Fabia. A smooth satisfying pass.

(‘psyche’)

[Solocle]

Pica-Pica said:

I don’t think you need a power advantage, just observation and skill.

My best overtake was:
On an A road with a BMW in front and a lorry in-front of that.
As I approached, I kept back. The road bent slightly to the left and was up hill, so keeping back I had a clear view that the distant view was clear for a fair distance. I quickly closed the gap, moved out for the near view as the bend straightened, indicated and went past both. That was in a 1.2 Fabia. A smooth satisfying pass.

(‘psyche’)

I raise you the car sat behind a tractor, bendy NSL B road, close enough that they couldn't see past the thing. I held back, the view opened up, so I moved offside and accelerated swiftly past them both.

I was on my bicycle

[kiethton]

Solocle said:

I raise you the car sat behind a tractor, bendy NSL B road, close enough that they couldn't see past the thing. I held back, the view opened up, so I moved offside and accelerated swiftly past them both.

I was on my bicycle

That's brilliant haha