Thread Crush - Overtake
Discussion
Very true, passive and unobtrusive progress is the key.
However, I am still intent on overtaking Mrs Miggins when safe to do so despite whatever ill placed opinion she may form of me. It's not my fault she associates the physical act of overtaking with a beer swigging, tune pumping car of youths.
However, I am still intent on overtaking Mrs Miggins when safe to do so despite whatever ill placed opinion she may form of me. It's not my fault she associates the physical act of overtaking with a beer swigging, tune pumping car of youths.
InitialDave said:
Mrs Miggins is quite happy to devote what time she has left before shuffling off to writing letters to people about how the roads need lower speed limits, more overtaking restrictions, more cameras etc.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
It's the same kind of (correct) argument as to why people shouldn't have noisy exhausts on their cars and motorbikes - it ruins it for everyone else. And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
But making "under the radar" progress is definitely the way forward.
For what it's worth, and I'm aware this is going to jinx me, but I can't recall a negative reaction to an overtake I've carried out, either in a car or on a motorbike, and I live in SE London/NW Kent. Maybe just luck, as I don't drive or ride lots of miles/year, but have been driving for quite a while now.
I've never had the cajones to overtake a police car on a B road though, so maybe I'm doing it wrong
Dr Jekyll said:
The only one here making up their own rules is the one who made up the one about off siding not being allowed.
"not being allowed" is different to "not being advised" or advice to "move out to the centre".I haven't said it's actually illegal in itself, but it might become illegal under the careless driving rules, if it causes a problem.
... all assuming we're not talking about continuous double white lines in the middle ...
M4cruiser said:
Armchair_Expert seems to be confirming my general drift, i.e. police drivers get (and need) training that the public don't get or have easy access to; police drivers do higher-speed training in unmarked cars, using the wrong side of the road can create huge problems,
oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
I don't intend to "shoot anyone down" so apologies if I caused offence. I just consider there to be a difference between opinions and facts; where inaccuracies are posted with apparent authority it's not unreasonable to call them out. There is no secret police version of Roadcraft and there is absolutely nothing wrong with offsiding per se. There is no suggestion that it is the right thing to do every time which is why such discussions become more complicated and these techniques are not taught to novices. However, this is the AD forum. All sorts of considerations need to be taken into account when driving as I'm sure you know, including third party perception. Using the offside may be safer, more dangerous or in some cases actually illegal. The same could be said about most driving actions. Driving around a blind bend at 59mph on a single-track NSL road would not constitute a speeding offence but could be deemed DWDC or dangerous driving, as an example. oh and where in the public version of Roadcraft does it say you can go onto the wrong side of the road?
Just posting my opinions and experience like everyone else, so don't shoot me down too much, ! I have a lot of driving experience and have seen some huge mistakes from less experienced people out there. Just because an action doesn't cause an actual collision on that occasion doesn't make it the right thing to do every time.
Police drivers, depending on their operational deployment, do have higher or considerably higher levels of training than the average motorist who is unlikely to have taken any training since their basic DVSA test. This is not to say that similar training (perhaps with the exceptions of TPAC, simulated pursuits and high-speed urban driving) cannot be obtained by a civilian, albeit it can be more difficult and certainly costly to find.
The new version of Roadcraft is worth reading and cheap on Amazon, if you have not already read it.
The issue with mimicing police training in the civilian world is that in the civilian world there is no exemption for speed. Even a standard response course ( the first rung of the blue light ladder ) is a 3 week driving course, mostly in excess of the speed limit. Often that means driving as fast as is safely possible to drive, or usually, as is possible in the cars being used for training. With such a free reign and not having to consider speed limits it allows the driver to whlly focus on the system, and ensuring the drive is to a safe standard. The approach to ever technique is different, overtakes, limit points, acceleration sense, because there is no speed cap your working to.
When you then combine that with years of experience performing the role, and for those who have an active interest in the topic fine tuning and perfecting the role ( extremely few in my experience ) it leads to an overall efficiency that is very difficult to quantify to the average driver.
When you then combine that with years of experience performing the role, and for those who have an active interest in the topic fine tuning and perfecting the role ( extremely few in my experience ) it leads to an overall efficiency that is very difficult to quantify to the average driver.
Armchair_Expert said:
The issue with mimicing police training in the civilian world is that in the civilian world there is no exemption for speed. Even a standard response course ( the first rung of the blue light ladder ) is a 3 week driving course, mostly in excess of the speed limit. Often that means driving as fast as is safely possible to drive, or usually, as is possible in the cars being used for training. With such a free reign and not having to consider speed limits it allows the driver to whlly focus on the system, and ensuring the drive is to a safe standard. The approach to ever technique is different, overtakes, limit points, acceleration sense, because there is no speed cap your working to.
When you then combine that with years of experience performing the role, and for those who have an active interest in the topic fine tuning and perfecting the role ( extremely few in my experience ) it leads to an overall efficiency that is very difficult to quantify to the average driver.
Thank you for that, I'd say that's a sensible post!When you then combine that with years of experience performing the role, and for those who have an active interest in the topic fine tuning and perfecting the role ( extremely few in my experience ) it leads to an overall efficiency that is very difficult to quantify to the average driver.
... and it leads on to one of the points I'm making which is that some "civilian" drivers see the police do something (like offsiding) and assume that it must be a good, safety-enhancing thing to do, maybe backed up by some chit-chat in the Motoring pages of a newspaper explaining about improving the view around a bend, and so they then go on to do it themselves, even when it's not at all necessary, and without having had the necessary training.
M4cruiser said:
Armchair_Expert said:
The issue with mimicing police training in the civilian world is that in the civilian world there is no exemption for speed. Even a standard response course ( the first rung of the blue light ladder ) is a 3 week driving course, mostly in excess of the speed limit. Often that means driving as fast as is safely possible to drive, or usually, as is possible in the cars being used for training. With such a free reign and not having to consider speed limits it allows the driver to whlly focus on the system, and ensuring the drive is to a safe standard. The approach to ever technique is different, overtakes, limit points, acceleration sense, because there is no speed cap your working to.
When you then combine that with years of experience performing the role, and for those who have an active interest in the topic fine tuning and perfecting the role ( extremely few in my experience ) it leads to an overall efficiency that is very difficult to quantify to the average driver.
Thank you for that, I'd say that's a sensible post!When you then combine that with years of experience performing the role, and for those who have an active interest in the topic fine tuning and perfecting the role ( extremely few in my experience ) it leads to an overall efficiency that is very difficult to quantify to the average driver.
... and it leads on to one of the points I'm making which is that some "civilian" drivers see the police do something (like offsiding) and assume that it must be a good, safety-enhancing thing to do, maybe backed up by some chit-chat in the Motoring pages of a newspaper explaining about improving the view around a bend, and so they then go on to do it themselves, even when it's not at all necessary, and without having had the necessary training.
The instructor was ex police and delighted in demonstrating how fast he could drive his pupil’s cars, but he seemed to manage to put across a lot of information in that short period. All but one passed the test with silvers and golds and until covid I’ve kept up the three yearly retests ever since.
I learnt about the value of using all the road in some situations in that original one day course (something I’d never really considered before), but it doesn’t seem too complex to work out that there are many situations where it is inappropriate or even dangerous…
Armchair_Expert said:
The issue with mimicing police training in the civilian world is that in the civilian world there is no exemption for speed.
Yes that is obviously true. It can be offset to some extent by use of offroad facilities where higher speeds are legal, although not then generally interacting with slow traffic. In the early days of the High Performance Course the instructors famously used a race circuit, generally I believe Brands Hatch, with the track being treated as a two way road. A couple of days ago I did 140 quite legally.When I took the course with a course manager who had been an instructor at Hendon I asked him how he could get civilians to, as he claimed, a comparable standard to police advanced drivers without requiring many weeks of full time training. His answer was that it was very much quicker to train the sort of students who paid large amounts of their own money for the course than those who were doing it as part of their job, and also that his students practised in their own time rather than during a formal course. That said, I know civilians who have taken as much training as police advanced drivers, and who regularly practise driving with a fellow critical advanced driver alongside.
I took my first advanced test some decades ago, in a less politically correct era, but after taking the High Performance Course. The summary on my Examiner's report said '... it was like being driven by a policeman' (the report is hanging in my loo !). I know other civilian drivers who are better than me.
M4cruiser said:
Thank you for that, I'd say that's a sensible post!
... and it leads on to one of the points I'm making which is that some "civilian" drivers see the police do something (like offsiding) and assume that it must be a good, safety-enhancing thing to do, maybe backed up by some chit-chat in the Motoring pages of a newspaper explaining about improving the view around a bend, and so they then go on to do it themselves, even when it's not at all necessary, and without having had the necessary training.
Hmmm - possibly, however, I would expect that a third observer will only ever see a marked car do this when responding to a call so with blue lights on, and think nothing more about it. If it is done by someone in their private car then it's back to the initial point of "look at that dangerous moron" with no objective basis for analysis. ... and it leads on to one of the points I'm making which is that some "civilian" drivers see the police do something (like offsiding) and assume that it must be a good, safety-enhancing thing to do, maybe backed up by some chit-chat in the Motoring pages of a newspaper explaining about improving the view around a bend, and so they then go on to do it themselves, even when it's not at all necessary, and without having had the necessary training.
Public perception works both ways, I would actively look to position a marked police car in general driving conditions in line with public expectations - so I would actually avoid off siding so as to avoid the exact same assumption above by the public. For numerous reasons, mainly I would not want to appear reckless to the untrained eye ( even if I wasn't being ) and equally I wouldn't want to encourage others to step outside their comfort zone at a later stage. People also call 101 and moan about police driving sometimes.
When on blue lights, off siding will generally be done in such a way that the public don't notice, i.e. being overtaken. That member of public is not then going to convoy with the police car and be able to observe further off siding as the police car should be away fairly quickly. That said I have witnessed some painfully slow police emergency driving in the county I live in.
Off topic, I have overtaken both a marked police car in my own car as well as an ambulance that was on blue lights. Both some time ago.
waremark said:
Yes that is obviously true. It can be offset to some extent by use of offroad facilities where higher speeds are legal, although not then generally interacting with slow traffic. In the early days of the High Performance Course the instructors famously used a race circuit, generally I believe Brands Hatch, with the track being treated as a two way road. A couple of days ago I did 140 quite legally.
When I took the course with a course manager who had been an instructor at Hendon I asked him how he could get civilians to, as he claimed, a comparable standard to police advanced drivers without requiring many weeks of full time training. His answer was that it was very much quicker to train the sort of students who paid large amounts of their own money for the course than those who were doing it as part of their job, and also that his students practised in their own time rather than during a formal course. That said, I know civilians who have taken as much training as police advanced drivers, and who regularly practise driving with a fellow critical advanced driver alongside.
I took my first advanced test some decades ago, in a less politically correct era, but after taking the High Performance Course. The summary on my Examiner's report said '... it was like being driven by a policeman' (the report is hanging in my loo !). I know other civilian drivers who are better than me.
You see, I have to disagree with most of your point.When I took the course with a course manager who had been an instructor at Hendon I asked him how he could get civilians to, as he claimed, a comparable standard to police advanced drivers without requiring many weeks of full time training. His answer was that it was very much quicker to train the sort of students who paid large amounts of their own money for the course than those who were doing it as part of their job, and also that his students practised in their own time rather than during a formal course. That said, I know civilians who have taken as much training as police advanced drivers, and who regularly practise driving with a fellow critical advanced driver alongside.
I took my first advanced test some decades ago, in a less politically correct era, but after taking the High Performance Course. The summary on my Examiner's report said '... it was like being driven by a policeman' (the report is hanging in my loo !). I know other civilian drivers who are better than me.
So you paid your £1500 to John Lyons and learn some techniques, mostly limit handling and speed work on a track. That gives you experience and tuition in... limit handling and speed work on a track. The environment in which you are training is not that of a live public road, with variable hazards and risk that change throughout the day. Using a sterile environment to learn about cornering, weight distribution, tyre-grip trade off, under/over steer, braking points, limit points and acceleration sense is all very valuable, but there is a whole other level of then applying those techniques to the road. And mainly, to adapt your driving and use the system to maintain progress safely and systematically on a road.
I am not saying HPC is not worthwhile, it's prob the best option for civvies, however, you will not be able to learn or perfect the art of making safe and maximum progress on a public road, blue lights or otherwise.
There are many examples of what the HPC course will not offer, one would be fast on's and off's to dual carriageways / motorways. Maximum progress on the "on slip", using acceleration sense and vision to merge straight out to lane 3 or more of a live carriageway and then keeping it pinned to your next hazard, usually a bend or another road user once your at 120mph plus. In the absence of either your carrying on to the max speed of the car in some cases until one of the former appear, which you need to see early, know how to correctly respond to and read the behavior of others accordingly. That could be at 150mph plus. Coming off the road is more complex, requiring a process of using distance / countdown markers and multiple live lanes combined with a constantly changing "gap" to navigate off. And all that done in an unmarked car with no warning equipment, planned well enough so as you not needing to brake, smoothly as butter, with zero effect on anyone else on the road.
Correct me if I am wrong but I just can't see these aspects of performance road driving being catered for by the likes of HPC. Being flexible with the limirt during overtakes is vastly different to having carte blanche ability to use maximum throttle in all situations over a period of weeks where your in a car for 8 hours a day.
Armchair_Expert said:
You see, I have to disagree with most of your point.
So you paid your £1500 to John Lyons and learn some techniques, mostly limit handling and speed work on a track. That gives you experience and tuition in... limit handling and speed work on a track. The environment in which you are training is not that of a live public road, with variable hazards and risk that change throughout the day. Using a sterile environment to learn about cornering, weight distribution, tyre-grip trade off, under/over steer, braking points, limit points and acceleration sense is all very valuable, but there is a whole other level of then applying those techniques to the road. And mainly, to adapt your driving and use the system to maintain progress safely and systematically on a road.
I am not saying HPC is not worthwhile, it's prob the best option for civvies, however, you will not be able to learn or perfect the art of making safe and maximum progress on a public road, blue lights or otherwise.
There are many examples of what the HPC course will not offer, one would be fast on's and off's to dual carriageways / motorways. Maximum progress on the "on slip", using acceleration sense and vision to merge straight out to lane 3 or more of a live carriageway and then keeping it pinned to your next hazard, usually a bend or another road user once your at 120mph plus. In the absence of either your carrying on to the max speed of the car in some cases until one of the former appear, which you need to see early, know how to correctly respond to and read the behavior of others accordingly. That could be at 150mph plus. Coming off the road is more complex, requiring a process of using distance / countdown markers and multiple live lanes combined with a constantly changing "gap" to navigate off. And all that done in an unmarked car with no warning equipment, planned well enough so as you not needing to brake, smoothly as butter, with zero effect on anyone else on the road.
Correct me if I am wrong but I just can't see these aspects of performance road driving being catered for by the likes of HPC. Being flexible with the limirt during overtakes is vastly different to having carte blanche ability to use maximum throttle in all situations over a period of weeks where your in a car for 8 hours a day.
John Lyon retired from HPC years ago, HPC training is mainly on the public road, it's not primarily about techniques anyway but standards. So you paid your £1500 to John Lyons and learn some techniques, mostly limit handling and speed work on a track. That gives you experience and tuition in... limit handling and speed work on a track. The environment in which you are training is not that of a live public road, with variable hazards and risk that change throughout the day. Using a sterile environment to learn about cornering, weight distribution, tyre-grip trade off, under/over steer, braking points, limit points and acceleration sense is all very valuable, but there is a whole other level of then applying those techniques to the road. And mainly, to adapt your driving and use the system to maintain progress safely and systematically on a road.
I am not saying HPC is not worthwhile, it's prob the best option for civvies, however, you will not be able to learn or perfect the art of making safe and maximum progress on a public road, blue lights or otherwise.
There are many examples of what the HPC course will not offer, one would be fast on's and off's to dual carriageways / motorways. Maximum progress on the "on slip", using acceleration sense and vision to merge straight out to lane 3 or more of a live carriageway and then keeping it pinned to your next hazard, usually a bend or another road user once your at 120mph plus. In the absence of either your carrying on to the max speed of the car in some cases until one of the former appear, which you need to see early, know how to correctly respond to and read the behavior of others accordingly. That could be at 150mph plus. Coming off the road is more complex, requiring a process of using distance / countdown markers and multiple live lanes combined with a constantly changing "gap" to navigate off. And all that done in an unmarked car with no warning equipment, planned well enough so as you not needing to brake, smoothly as butter, with zero effect on anyone else on the road.
Correct me if I am wrong but I just can't see these aspects of performance road driving being catered for by the likes of HPC. Being flexible with the limirt during overtakes is vastly different to having carte blanche ability to use maximum throttle in all situations over a period of weeks where your in a car for 8 hours a day.
I believe that certainly in John Lyon's day the 2 day course was 12 hours a day one to one instruction. Given that not everyone gets to start with that course, typically those who are around ROSPA Gold level, and ROSPA Gold is awarded to those who in the opinion of the ex police examiner 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course. The entry level for that course is about the same as that for the police advanced course.
So learning the rudiments in the first two days and then getting somewhere near the end standard (excluding blue light stuff) after a few more years of experience and coaching sounds feasible.
Dr Jekyll said:
John Lyon retired from HPC years ago, HPC training is mainly on the public road, it's not primarily about techniques anyway but standards.
I believe that certainly in John Lyon's day the 2 day course was 12 hours a day one to one instruction. Given that not everyone gets to start with that course, typically those who are around ROSPA Gold level, and ROSPA Gold is awarded to those who in the opinion of the ex police examiner 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course. The entry level for that course is about the same as that for the police advanced course.
So learning the rudiments in the first two days and then getting somewhere near the end standard (excluding blue light stuff) after a few more years of experience and coaching sounds feasible.
Fair enough, so things have moved on since I last enquired into HPC. To be fair that was in 2007 I believe.I believe that certainly in John Lyon's day the 2 day course was 12 hours a day one to one instruction. Given that not everyone gets to start with that course, typically those who are around ROSPA Gold level, and ROSPA Gold is awarded to those who in the opinion of the ex police examiner 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course. The entry level for that course is about the same as that for the police advanced course.
So learning the rudiments in the first two days and then getting somewhere near the end standard (excluding blue light stuff) after a few more years of experience and coaching sounds feasible.
12 hours a day 1 to 1 instruction - really? 7am to 7pm? And how much of that was classroom / theory based? I get that the candidates deemed feasible for something like the HPC will be those who excel but I am still struggling to see how you can compare AD in the civilian world to that of the police world. You state that the entry level for the HPC course is the same as that of a police advanced course... I cant' agree with that statement - how can shining stars in the civilian world claim to have experience of exceeding speed limits for prolonged durations of time, of negotiating red traffic lights and how to do so based on the size and complexity of the junction, of off-siding keep left bollards, and of any sort of pursuit related input ( mock pursuit in excess of the limit on a public road ) which response drivers these days do also get to do... the two worlds although using the same theory are apples and pears.
I also question what this "level" is? Police Advanced courses are regularly dished out to response drivers ( sometimes fairly new ones ) because it is a tool required for operational policing. A vast amount of these candidates are average at best, do little to no preparation and end up failing the course. Police officers in general want to gain the driving qualification for kudos and bragging rights alone - I would say a small minority of them are genuinely interested in AD or make the effort to hone, fine tune, assess and adapt their skills. These days refreshers are required to ensure standards don't slip, and it is not uncommon for drivers to lose their tickets entirely.
I would suspect there are a fair amount of civvie drivers capable of performing to a higher level than some police response drivers. However, the police drivers will be accustomed to, and subconsciously competent at, driving in excess of the limit, red traffic lights and off-siding keep left bollards. Sometimes they will be doing all three at the same time. It is hard to quantify on a forum but what I am saying is that after a few years of driving in such a way, normally for long periods of time every working day, you soon clock up thousands and thousands of driving hours at a level simply not afforded to the public, or certainly permitted by law anyway.
Out of interest and a genuine question ,do you know if my example of merging and exiting fast roads is something covered by HPC or equivalent?
I struggle to understand how someone who has never trained using the 3 exemptions 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course" simply as they will not have any foundation on which to build upon, as the required level internally is that of "experienced response driver" who will already have those huge amount of driving hours under their belt. You need to be fully at home with high speed, negotiating red lights and using all the road in which to extend and build upon those skills to advanced level. Many response drivers who have these skills already are torn apart on, or binned from an advanced course, as they still have not fully consolidated these vital abilities.
Edited by Armchair_Expert on Saturday 10th July 13:13
Armchair_Expert said:
Fair enough, so things have moved on since I last enquired into HPC. To be fair that was in 2007 I believe.
12 hours a day 1 to 1 instruction - really? 7am to 7pm? And how much of that was classroom / theory based? I get that the candidates deemed feasible for something like the HPC will be those who excel but I am still struggling to see how you can compare AD in the civilian world to that of the police world. You state that the entry level for the HPC course is the same as that of a police advanced course... I cant' agree with that statement - how can shining stars in the civilian world claim to have experience of exceeding speed limits for prolonged durations of time, of negotiating red traffic lights and how to do so based on the size and complexity of the junction, of off-siding keep left bollards, and of any sort of pursuit related input ( mock pursuit in excess of the limit on a public road ) which response drivers these days do also get to do... the two worlds although using the same theory are apples and pears.
I also question what this "level" is? Police Advanced courses are regularly dished out to response drivers ( sometimes fairly new ones ) because it is a tool required for operational policing. A vast amount of these candidates are average at best, do little to no preparation and end up failing the course. Police officers in general want to gain the driving qualification for kudos and bragging rights alone - I would say a small minority of them are genuinely interested in AD or make the effort to hone, fine tune, assess and adapt their skills. These days refreshers are required to ensure standards don't slip, and it is not uncommon for drivers to lose their tickets entirely.
I would suspect there are a fair amount of civvie drivers capable of performing to a higher level than some police response drivers. However, the police drivers will be accustomed to, and subconsciously competent at, driving in excess of the limit, red traffic lights and off-siding keep left bollards. Sometimes they will be doing all three at the same time. It is hard to quantify on a forum but what I am saying is that after a few years of driving in such a way, normally for long periods of time every working day, you soon clock up thousands and thousands of driving hours at a level simply not afforded to the public, or certainly permitted by law anyway.
Out of interest and a genuine question ,do you know if my example of merging and exiting fast roads is something covered by HPC or equivalent?
I struggle to understand how someone who has never trained using the 3 exemptions 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course" simply as they will not have any foundation on which to build upon, as the required level internally is that of "experienced response driver" who will already have those huge amount of driving hours under their belt. You need to be fully at home with high speed, negotiating red lights and using all the road in which to extend and build upon those skills to advanced level. Many response drivers who have these skills already are torn apart on, or binned from an advanced course, as they still have not fully consolidated these vital abilities.
From my own experience of HPC - DC/motorways are not a focus on the course, because beyond the basics, as non-police it's not fun and value can't be added - you aren't trying to cover mile after mile in pursuit, your making progress - thoughts/broader thinking/risk assessment were still helpful on the autobahn though - majority of work in the course is on SC A/B/C roads and in town where you were analysing the full spectrum of closing speeds vs traffic vs corners etc and being smooth/reading ahead in town. It's not the same as full-on policeis pursuit driving but it lays exactly the same grounding which you then build on with more training and observed drives - driving styles are similar when alone and out of town (but without exemptions) but very different amongst other traffic.12 hours a day 1 to 1 instruction - really? 7am to 7pm? And how much of that was classroom / theory based? I get that the candidates deemed feasible for something like the HPC will be those who excel but I am still struggling to see how you can compare AD in the civilian world to that of the police world. You state that the entry level for the HPC course is the same as that of a police advanced course... I cant' agree with that statement - how can shining stars in the civilian world claim to have experience of exceeding speed limits for prolonged durations of time, of negotiating red traffic lights and how to do so based on the size and complexity of the junction, of off-siding keep left bollards, and of any sort of pursuit related input ( mock pursuit in excess of the limit on a public road ) which response drivers these days do also get to do... the two worlds although using the same theory are apples and pears.
I also question what this "level" is? Police Advanced courses are regularly dished out to response drivers ( sometimes fairly new ones ) because it is a tool required for operational policing. A vast amount of these candidates are average at best, do little to no preparation and end up failing the course. Police officers in general want to gain the driving qualification for kudos and bragging rights alone - I would say a small minority of them are genuinely interested in AD or make the effort to hone, fine tune, assess and adapt their skills. These days refreshers are required to ensure standards don't slip, and it is not uncommon for drivers to lose their tickets entirely.
I would suspect there are a fair amount of civvie drivers capable of performing to a higher level than some police response drivers. However, the police drivers will be accustomed to, and subconsciously competent at, driving in excess of the limit, red traffic lights and off-siding keep left bollards. Sometimes they will be doing all three at the same time. It is hard to quantify on a forum but what I am saying is that after a few years of driving in such a way, normally for long periods of time every working day, you soon clock up thousands and thousands of driving hours at a level simply not afforded to the public, or certainly permitted by law anyway.
Out of interest and a genuine question ,do you know if my example of merging and exiting fast roads is something covered by HPC or equivalent?
I struggle to understand how someone who has never trained using the 3 exemptions 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course" simply as they will not have any foundation on which to build upon, as the required level internally is that of "experienced response driver" who will already have those huge amount of driving hours under their belt. You need to be fully at home with high speed, negotiating red lights and using all the road in which to extend and build upon those skills to advanced level. Many response drivers who have these skills already are torn apart on, or binned from an advanced course, as they still have not fully consolidated these vital abilities.
Edited by Armchair_Expert on Saturday 10th July 13:13
The ethos and content for these roads (where the fun/experience is greatest in Civvie world) is where the value is added.
Armchair_Expert said:
Fair enough, so things have moved on since I last enquired into HPC. To be fair that was in 2007 I believe.
Even before 2007 most HPC instruction was on the public road with just occasional use of track environments to cover specific points. This goes back to the early 1960s.Armchair_Expert said:
12 hours a day 1 to 1 instruction - really? 7am to 7pm? And how much of that was classroom / theory based?
None so far as I know, without sufficient grasp of the theory you didn't get on the course in the first place.Armchair_Expert said:
I get that the candidates deemed feasible for something like the HPC will be those who excel but I am still struggling to see how you can compare AD in the civilian world to that of the police world. You state that the entry level for the HPC course is the same as that of a police advanced course... I cant' agree with that statement - how can shining stars in the civilian world claim to have experience of exceeding speed limits for prolonged durations of time, of negotiating red traffic lights and how to do so based on the size and complexity of the junction, of off-siding keep left bollards, and of any sort of pursuit related input ( mock pursuit in excess of the limit on a public road ) which response drivers these days do also get to do... the two worlds although using the same theory are apples and pears.
But that's the point. Civilian driving doesn't involve such high speeds, going through red lights or off siding keep left bollards. So any deficiencies in these techniques aren't an issue. My comment about the entry level was referring to driving without exemptions, and based on the ROSPA advanced driving organisation's guidance to it's own examiners. The fact is that if lack of experience of offsiding keep left signs through red lights at 150MPH manifests itself as an error in technique in civilian driving, that error can be addressed in civilian driving. If the difference isn't apparent in civilian driving, then it isn't a problem.Incidentally John Lyon told me he's had ROSPA gold qualified drivers who he judged weren't ready for his course.
Armchair_Expert said:
I also question what this "level" is? Police Advanced courses are regularly dished out to response drivers ( sometimes fairly new ones ) because it is a tool required for operational policing. A vast amount of these candidates are average at best, do little to no preparation and end up failing the course. Police officers in general want to gain the driving qualification for kudos and bragging rights alone - I would say a small minority of them are genuinely interested in AD or make the effort to hone, fine tune, assess and adapt their skills. These days refreshers are required to ensure standards don't slip, and it is not uncommon for drivers to lose their tickets entirely.
I would suspect there are a fair amount of civvie drivers capable of performing to a higher level than some police response drivers. However, the police drivers will be accustomed to, and subconsciously competent at, driving in excess of the limit, red traffic lights and off-siding keep left bollards. Sometimes they will be doing all three at the same time. It is hard to quantify on a forum but what I am saying is that after a few years of driving in such a way, normally for long periods of time every working day, you soon clock up thousands and thousands of driving hours at a level simply not afforded to the public, or certainly permitted by law anyway.
Out of interest and a genuine question ,do you know if my example of merging and exiting fast roads is something covered by HPC or equivalent?
I struggle to understand how someone who has never trained using the 3 exemptions 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course" simply as they will not have any foundation on which to build upon, as the required level internally is that of "experienced response driver" who will already have those huge amount of driving hours under their belt. You need to be fully at home with high speed, negotiating red lights and using all the road in which to extend and build upon those skills to advanced level. Many response drivers who have these skills already are torn apart on, or binned from an advanced course, as they still have not fully consolidated these vital abilities.
If the technique you refer can be practiced without exemptions then I'm sure civilian organisations cover it. If it can't then it's irrelevant.I would suspect there are a fair amount of civvie drivers capable of performing to a higher level than some police response drivers. However, the police drivers will be accustomed to, and subconsciously competent at, driving in excess of the limit, red traffic lights and off-siding keep left bollards. Sometimes they will be doing all three at the same time. It is hard to quantify on a forum but what I am saying is that after a few years of driving in such a way, normally for long periods of time every working day, you soon clock up thousands and thousands of driving hours at a level simply not afforded to the public, or certainly permitted by law anyway.
Out of interest and a genuine question ,do you know if my example of merging and exiting fast roads is something covered by HPC or equivalent?
I struggle to understand how someone who has never trained using the 3 exemptions 'would if given the opportunity, do well on a police advanced course" simply as they will not have any foundation on which to build upon, as the required level internally is that of "experienced response driver" who will already have those huge amount of driving hours under their belt. You need to be fully at home with high speed, negotiating red lights and using all the road in which to extend and build upon those skills to advanced level. Many response drivers who have these skills already are torn apart on, or binned from an advanced course, as they still have not fully consolidated these vital abilities.
InitialDave said:
Mrs Miggins is quite happy to devote what time she has left before shuffling off to writing letters to people about how the roads need lower speed limits, more overtaking restrictions, more cameras etc.
And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
honestly no one listens to me at all. And unfortunately, people seem to like listening to what Mrs Miggins has to say.
Making fast progress without Mrs Miggins noticing is useful to everyone.
Please feel free to overtake safely, offside etc.When I did BikeSafe a couple of years ago I had a lengthy chat with the bike cop about offsiding and he positively encouraged it. It's now part of my riding and driving and I don't see anything wrong with it when done appropriately.
Maybe I am overthinking it then.
In my mind, when I visualize both a civvie driver and a decent police driver on their rest day, driving some B roads on a Sunday afternoon, I guess it is true that both have the same caps, legal restrictions ( speed mainly ) and requirement to drive as a careful and competent driver. So yes, it probably is largely irrelevant with that in mind.
Dare I say it though, during the same visualization I remember how the groups actually drive ( especially early hours of a Sunday morning ) and without advocating it, it is fair to say that groups of enthusiasts are not all suddenly hitting a speed wall of 60 on a single lane B road, or 70 on a DC. I have done a huge number of PH and other drives over the years and some seem to be more spirited than others.
In my mind, when I visualize both a civvie driver and a decent police driver on their rest day, driving some B roads on a Sunday afternoon, I guess it is true that both have the same caps, legal restrictions ( speed mainly ) and requirement to drive as a careful and competent driver. So yes, it probably is largely irrelevant with that in mind.
Dare I say it though, during the same visualization I remember how the groups actually drive ( especially early hours of a Sunday morning ) and without advocating it, it is fair to say that groups of enthusiasts are not all suddenly hitting a speed wall of 60 on a single lane B road, or 70 on a DC. I have done a huge number of PH and other drives over the years and some seem to be more spirited than others.
Armchair_Expert said:
Maybe I am overthinking it then.
In my mind, when I visualize both a civvie driver and a decent police driver on their rest day, driving some B roads on a Sunday afternoon, I guess it is true that both have the same caps, legal restrictions ( speed mainly ) and requirement to drive as a careful and competent driver. So yes, it probably is largely irrelevant with that in mind.
Dare I say it though, during the same visualization I remember how the groups actually drive ( especially early hours of a Sunday morning ) and without advocating it, it is fair to say that groups of enthusiasts are not all suddenly hitting a speed wall of 60 on a single lane B road, or 70 on a DC. I have done a huge number of PH and other drives over the years and some seem to be more spirited than others.
Perfectly true, but then the same applied when I've driven with John Lyon and a few other police trained instructors. In my mind, when I visualize both a civvie driver and a decent police driver on their rest day, driving some B roads on a Sunday afternoon, I guess it is true that both have the same caps, legal restrictions ( speed mainly ) and requirement to drive as a careful and competent driver. So yes, it probably is largely irrelevant with that in mind.
Dare I say it though, during the same visualization I remember how the groups actually drive ( especially early hours of a Sunday morning ) and without advocating it, it is fair to say that groups of enthusiasts are not all suddenly hitting a speed wall of 60 on a single lane B road, or 70 on a DC. I have done a huge number of PH and other drives over the years and some seem to be more spirited than others.
It wasn't the way a police trainee using all exemptions would be expected to drive, but it certainly wasn't sticking rigidly to NSL either.
I think some IAM bike groups in particular did have something of a 'speed wall', but tended to treat it as a target. Spending a lot of time at say 90, but no faster. While JL said specifically that he treated non trunk road NSLs as derestricted and occasionally hit 90, very occasionally three figures. That was in a car not a bike, but I was happy with the speed he drove me and he was OK with the somewhat lower speed at which I drove him . While I parted company with an IAM bike group because I wasn't happy with the speed they went round corners, which I suspected was connected with the way every meeting seem to include a reference to whichever member had suffered a single vehicle cornering accident that month.
I have never got into the bike thing really. Rode for the job for years but never particularly got excited by it, or shone at it. The RT1200s are great to cruise and chuck around but are heavy. Surprised that it was an IAM riding group that kept coming a cropper - the stigma attached to IAM would put them at the bottom of the pile.
I agree, speed in itself is not unsafe, there are plenty of places in the right vehicle that around leptons can be reached with little fuss or fluster. However, your observations have to be on point not only for the obvious safety of driving but also the self preservation of your own little pink photo card.
I agree, speed in itself is not unsafe, there are plenty of places in the right vehicle that around leptons can be reached with little fuss or fluster. However, your observations have to be on point not only for the obvious safety of driving but also the self preservation of your own little pink photo card.
Armchair expert - I can’t really disagree with much of what you say. For the purpose of attempting to “perfect” civilian driving including high performance aspects it is plainly obvious that driving at a safe speed for the circumstances must be the focus, rather than consideration of the posted speed limit per se. Some activities that the police do are not covered by organisations like HPC. I have had some rare opportunities and have been fortunate to not only complete John Lyon’s HPC course (which did include some proving ground work at Millbrook and MIRA but most on road) but also work with a number of organisations, including the police, on my road driving. My own enthusiasm and passion to continue improving my driving has hopefully, like any skill, with appropriate instruction/coaching then practise practise practise, including in far flung Asian countries where driving standards are very poor, thousands of Autobahn miles, differing conditions and vehicles etc I am developing my own ability and I take advice and guidance from anyone knowledgable about different aspects of driving. However, it is correct that the only way I would get exposure to formal police driver training for operational use would be to join the police or work towards becoming a civilian instructor - both of which especially the former are not feasible options for me at the moment. I am just on a learning curve which I don’t think will ever stop.
Rather than saying we are comparing apples to pears etc or having a robust discussion about police driver standards vs a civilian who invests time and effort in their training I think we should celebrate the fact that there are people out there including those posting on this forum who seek to take their driving to a much higher level than the average motorist. Unfortunately accidents and poor driver standards seem to have led to a lot of otherwise good roads being littered with cameras and reduced from NSL to 50. I went to a RoSPA meeting a while back and a new, middle aged guy turned up and his reasoning for attending was he’d just had an accident and wanted to improve his driving. He didn’t want to learn high performance driving skills, he just wanted to reduce his chances of being in an accident. That’s great in my view. I do see the police on these TV shows having a go at motorists they stop for contravening traffic laws (which I accept is their job) but I do wonder if a small bit of education and some pointers as to how they might improve their driving would help (I’m not talking about morons who are no hopers, just the average family motorist who really could benefit from some extra training).
Anyway I’m digressing a bit but my main point is a range of skills are needed for driving safely on the roads, which are far from sterile environments. The U.K. police have a system which seems to work fairly well compared with other countries and is embedded in Roadcraft. However, I do wonder if it is too dogmatic sometimes. Put an experienced traffic officer on a complex and busy road in Asia, I think they’d do better than many but applying the system would just not work in some scenarios, so being agile is also key. No worries about third party perception there - anything goes, even in front of the police :-) Finally, back to overtaking and off siding I will continue to do them whenever it is safe and will not cause an obvious nuisance to anyone. However, as you say if the said Mrs Muggins or hot headed family man suddenly decides they don’t like being overtaken in a perfectly safe manner then that’s just human beings - some are either idiots or they just don’t understand much about what they are actually doing (ie driving!)
Rather than saying we are comparing apples to pears etc or having a robust discussion about police driver standards vs a civilian who invests time and effort in their training I think we should celebrate the fact that there are people out there including those posting on this forum who seek to take their driving to a much higher level than the average motorist. Unfortunately accidents and poor driver standards seem to have led to a lot of otherwise good roads being littered with cameras and reduced from NSL to 50. I went to a RoSPA meeting a while back and a new, middle aged guy turned up and his reasoning for attending was he’d just had an accident and wanted to improve his driving. He didn’t want to learn high performance driving skills, he just wanted to reduce his chances of being in an accident. That’s great in my view. I do see the police on these TV shows having a go at motorists they stop for contravening traffic laws (which I accept is their job) but I do wonder if a small bit of education and some pointers as to how they might improve their driving would help (I’m not talking about morons who are no hopers, just the average family motorist who really could benefit from some extra training).
Anyway I’m digressing a bit but my main point is a range of skills are needed for driving safely on the roads, which are far from sterile environments. The U.K. police have a system which seems to work fairly well compared with other countries and is embedded in Roadcraft. However, I do wonder if it is too dogmatic sometimes. Put an experienced traffic officer on a complex and busy road in Asia, I think they’d do better than many but applying the system would just not work in some scenarios, so being agile is also key. No worries about third party perception there - anything goes, even in front of the police :-) Finally, back to overtaking and off siding I will continue to do them whenever it is safe and will not cause an obvious nuisance to anyone. However, as you say if the said Mrs Muggins or hot headed family man suddenly decides they don’t like being overtaken in a perfectly safe manner then that’s just human beings - some are either idiots or they just don’t understand much about what they are actually doing (ie driving!)
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